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Ulster
Unionists based on the 1979 results - the UUUP held the next door seat and had stood in F&ST in 1979 - and also had more councillors in the seat than the DUP (three in Fermanagh to the DUP's two in Dungannon). But they may have already realised they were a busted flush by 1981 (with the Assembly elections the next year being the ultimate confirmation). (In the 1982 Assembly elections for the seat, the DUP and UUUP between them got less than half the votes the UUP got.)
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side were split as well - e.g. the 1979 Independent
Republican vs Independent SDLP vs Official Ulster Unionist vs United Ulster Unionist contest). However Maguire announced he was withdrawing in favour of Sands in the one hour window between the close of nominations and the deadline for withdrawing. (Had Maguire not withdrawn, Sands would have been withdrawn.)
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always maintained he was 'forced' out off running. Then in regards to the second election, there were no agreements here either. A simple google search would have told you there were 6 candidates from across the political spectrum. How were they any less significant? And please dont resort to your no hopers idea.
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But it is not just me that thinks they either dont belong/ belong but the other candidates as well. You failed to answer the above question (surprise, surprise), why do you insist on their inclusion when you have clearly not got consenus on the issue? Oh and my edit history is of no relevance to you.
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Until the by-election the
Republican Movement was having difficulty obtaining publicity for the hunger strikers. The by-election and Sands' victory turned the hunger strike into worldwide news. I do not understand how you can say the by-election was just something that happened during the strike and
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For the benefit of
Padraig, 1. Define the difference between minor and significant in regards to election candidates? 2. How they acted differently to make some more significant than others? 3. (vintagekits questions) Where they involved with the 81 Stike? Do you have consensus to add their name to
541:
1. Some do, some don't. But there are names on the template that do not have wiki pages. 2. They were not, but neither was Harry West. Padraig is insisting that he be included on the template, then I am insisting on consistency 3. Does
Padraig have consensus to add Harry Wests name? No, I am not the
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The SDLP would have run a candidate if Noel
Maguire (the aforementioned brother) had not announced his intention to stand - because the seat had a fine balance between Unionist and Nationalist voters there was a desire on both sides to avoid splitting the vote (or perhaps to only split if the other
1501:
Please do try to research facts before you post. He was not a united unionist candidate, the DUP had no base in
Fermanagh at the time. It is widely believed any other candidates were intimidated out of running by the IRA, an example would have been the previously deceased MP's brother, Noel. He has
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But out of the few people that have participated in this discussion 3 editors have stated Wests name does not belong on the template. One of them editors who was the author of the template, has stated that it was a mistake to include Wests name. And I know exactly who wiki works. I also know when I
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Your question on my talkpage was already answered by an admin, there is not much more I can add to what he said, that I haven't already said in that discussion. As for this the other candidates they played a minor role in this election, their input had no impact on the overall result, West was the
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Sorry but I am no longer talking about the 1st by election. You are wrong however, these 5 candidates played a key role in the 2nd by election, they made up 80% of the candidates! Therefore you cannot choose which candidates you think should be on the template. They all had as much influence on the
808:
Indeed what makes the unsuccessful Ulster
Unionist candidate an inherently important figure the hunger strikes in and of themselves? More of a major figure than the UUP candidate in the second by-election, who isn't on the template? What about the leaders of the major parties in Northern Ireland at
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How was he major? Please do explain? He was a candidate ( and a reluctant one at that!) that just so happened to stand against Bobby Sands. He did not partake in the strike, he had no influence over the strike, he held no leadership position during the strike. I am actually really interested to how
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The second by election was very notable because
Thatcher rush through legisation to ensure another prisoner couldn't stand to replace Bobby Sands, which is why Owen Carron who was his election agent was forward as a proxy prisoner candidate, thatcher had hoped that would break the publicity gained
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Seriously don't use that 'the election made people pay attention line' with me. The strikes were already news. Yes it may have shook
Westminister for a few days (again not relevant to Harry West). And yes I still say the by-election was just something that happened. It would have still happened if
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In terms of the lack of inter Unionist fraticide in the by-elections, not only were the DUP weak here but also they were not the only party contending to be the anti-UUP force. The ironically named United Ulster Unionists would have had a stronger claim to be the main challengers to the Official
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There were two elections which a few people claimed had major influence on the Hunger Strike. Harry West just happened to be the sole candidate in the first. In the 2nd election there were 5 candidates standing against the 'pro hunger striker' candidate (Carron). Therefore all candidates must be
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It took part during the strike but was not directly related to it. The election happened because the outgoing MP passed away. There was an election, Sands went up, not the hunger strikes. I'm not a political amatuer. You can use your threats of edits wars but I am not letting this one drop just
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Ack now padraig this is becoming laughable. Just answer the questions. You have not told me what the differnce between significant and minor are. You have not told me how the candidates acted differently. You have not told me whether are not you gained consensus to put Wests name back on the
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I've reverted. The left align didn't look at all good, neither did the bullet spacing or names being split over two lines. The centre align is more consistent with succession boxes and the like which appear on some articles the template appears on, and there's plenty of other centre aligned
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I've just added both by-elections to the template as the start of an events section. There is a point that the second was less significant than the first (but still clearly of note) but I still don't see why West alone qualifies for inclusion - was the April by-election turned into a very
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So what was your reasoning for not having the party leaders names included? Because you did not make the template, then do you think the current one is inadeqaute and a new one should be created? Apologies, did not see Carron's name on it, however whilst looking over it I spotted that the
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I fail to see how you can detirmine between 'hopers' and 'no hopers'. If their name was on the ballot, then according to you they were taking part in a significant part of the hunger strike. Whether they were elected or not is irrelevant. West was not elected. Maginnis was not elected.
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I didn't create the template, I merely restored it after it was removed by an editor who frequently removes information about republicans from articles (or attempts to delete the articles altogether). The second by-election was not as significant as the first. For the publicity -
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Minor or not they still had as much influence on the hunger strikes as Harry West did. Just because they don't have a wiki page does not mean they should not be included. So yes/no, should the 5 other candidates be included in the template? I'm only going by what you/Scalp said.
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Actually its called facts replacing fiction. And no it was not answered, why do you feel you have the right to include these names when you have very clearly no consensus on the issue? Even the original author has not even said it was a mistake to add the name. Do answer here.
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I also added the Irish general election, as strikers were elected. The second by-election was notable, but the first was really the "big one". Bear in mind the template is a navigation template, so do you really have anything against more incoming links to this article?
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you can call him a 'major political figure'. And also I do not agree as will many others that he should be on the template, so that is not a valid excuse. Ohh and another thing, isn't it strange that you seem to appear when Padraig's not around... damn my paranoia.
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and there's not much other than his being the by-election candidate on his own article. Since both by-elections are now on the template there's no real need for the various candidates to be listed unless they were significant figures elsewhere (e.g. Carron).
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Bobby Sands, being elected as an MP. While on Hunger Strike. Notable, I think so. A new law had to be passed to prevent it happening again! Just another By-election? I have watched this discussion, and can not see any reasons why the name should be removed.
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So going by the consensus that the 2nd was also important and then following claims that Harry West's name was included solely because he was a candidate, then should I include the names of the 4 other candidates who are currently not on the template?
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Erm but then Ken Maginnis was the sole Unionist candidate in August, as Seamus Close was the sole APNI candidate, I fail to see your point. The template has been edited, if West must be on it, then the other 5 candidates must also be represented.
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No I don't think the other candidates where relevent, West was put up as a Unified Unionist candidate to try and defeat the hunger strike candidate, while he may have been reluctant to stand the Unionists put up a determined campaign to take that
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Now reasons he shouldn't be included. He had no affect on the strikes, he was only an election candidate, there are 5 other candidates who had just as much influence on the strike however you refuse to insert them on the template. Your reply ?
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The other four candidates in the second By election played a minor part in that as the Unionist vote united against Carron in an attempt to defeat him, I also doubt if many of the minor candidates at the time would warrent an article in
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He was put up as a United Unionist candidate, and all other Unionists withdrew from the election to try and defeat the Hunger strike candidate, the Unionists put there all into winning that seat, the same happened in both
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Here is a good guide that you might want to start with. 1. Do they have an article of their own? 2. Where they invloved in the 81 HS, 3. DO you have concensus and argeement to add their names to the template?--
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Comment: I created the template and only added Harry West as a space filler and to add some balance incase anyone felt it was lacking. Don't really see any point in keeping him in it now. Just a thought...
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large number of people disagree with a part of an article/template they have the right to edit it. Majority rule by numbers does not work here, even though there seems to be some kind of unwritten rule in
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And Domer48, you seem to constantly tell me to use this talk page, here I am... Now your point, if the elections were significant (I generally agree) then why do you list only some candidates?
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They are included because the played a major role in the by-elections, you are trying to remove them because of your POV against republicanism, which is clearly shown by your edit history.--
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is included, so should all of its candidates be included? For that is your sole reasoning as to why Harry West is included. Also I am curious as to who is currently editing the template...
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This template has changed greatly from what the original editor created, that is how wikipedia works. You have no consensus to remove the links, and there is no fiction in this template.--
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Sands ' election spurred frantic attempts to mediate or find a resolution. An envoy from the Pope spent an hour with Sands in his cell, and media from all over the world flocked to Belfast
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The by-election was one of the focal points of the hunger strike. He took part in the by-election. Therefore he was a major figure. I would suggest you refrain from making any further
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Padraig, this has all already been discussed on your page. Define the difference between minor & signifcant, and how this effects their roles played within the Hunger Strike?
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669:
I have re-read all the discussion below, and I can tell you that none of the three questions have been answered. I would appreciate a reply to the questions asked.
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I don't see any real connection between Fitzgerald and Magee and the Strike other than they were around during it, despite Magee's supposed role in the 1980 H/S.
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No they Don't this election was a two horse race, the other candidates didn't feature in it, and there total vote between them was irrelevent, to the outcome.--
777:
there had not been a strike on. Im interested in seeing what other contributors think on this issue for your individual opinion should not shape this article.
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was the Main Unionist candidate, the other four candidate were no hopers, there is no need to mention them in the infobox as the election itself is linked.--
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You have failed to put forward a convincing arguement as for why his name shouldn't be included, whereas good reasons have been provided why it should.--
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Erm no it wasn't. Can you please explain it here? Oh yea, Vintagekits asked an excellent three questions above, would you mind answering them also?
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So good reasons for him being included are, he was a candidate in one of the elections. Am I missing any?.... erm em can't think of any more.
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I"ve been looking at the list of people now included in the Major Figures list and it strikes me that it is still cluttered (with or without
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Your question has been answered below, maybe you have nothing better to do, but I have, and see no reason to repeat the discussion below.--
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You must understand how wiki works. You need concensus to add something - not to keep something out, You are editing against concensus.--
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Thanks for your honesty GiollaUdir, it would be interesting to see what Padraig has to say, but he rarely replies on talk pages.
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Tim, do you believe Wests name should be singled out for inclusion in the template? Do think he had a major role to play.
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You didn't answer the question. You also do not have consensus, so why do you insist on having the names on the template?
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Cardinal Hume made plenty of statements during the HS but I don't think he played a big enough role to justify inclusion.
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stance/legacy as Atkins had been the main Brit. gov rep in the run up to the strike and during most of the strike itself.
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Your edit history shows you are edit to push a POV so it is very relevent, and your question has been answered.--
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main Unionist candidate and only one that could hoped to take the seat from the hunger strike candidate.--
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While Prior was involved in the strike for the last 30(ish!) days of the strike he only really inherited
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Care to answer Tim's questions? Should Owen Carron, Danny Morrison et al not also be on the template?
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Taking up less space when a template can be made to auto-collapse is no reason for poor formatting.
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only editor that has said that. Methinks you should direct the above three questions to padraig.
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You have no consensus to remove links from this template, so please stop your POV pushing.--
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the time? If anything surely it should be the by-election itself that's on the template?
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I disagree with you I think the template above is better looking, takes up less space.--
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strike as Harry West did. (btw I left you a question on your page, please answer it)
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For these reasons I'd support removal of them from the template. Your thoughts??
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Because West stood as the only other candidate against Bobby Sands maybe.--
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As above. Left formatting looks ugly, as does the spacing and line breaks.
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No - he's only mentioned as the other candidate on both
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from Sands election, but this failed when Carron won.--
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wasn't directly related to it under the circumstances.
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Major political and religious figures during the strike
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Major political and religious figures during the strike
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You have not consensus to add them. Why do you do so?
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template. Seriously, are you going to answer these?
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Fermanagh and South Tyrone by-election, August 1981
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