1464:). Humanity first cannot be equated with the 'Shura', 'MTA' and 'Jalsa' because they are primarily for the Community and are religiously affiliated with it. The 'Shura', in fact, is exclusively for the Community members only. By contrast, although Humanity First was founded by and is run by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, as your evidences above point to, it is not religiously affiliated to the Community in the way other institutions or auxiliaries (Khuddam, Lajna etc.) which make up the Community's organisational structure are. Humanity First has always been secular in nature and was specifically set up to serve, not just Ahmadis or Muslims, but all humankind without any distinction. Relief convoys go out as representatives of Humanity First and not of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. An article about its foundation from the Community's official website
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Kilafatulmasih list lists the leaders of the AMC community and the Lahore
Scholars mixes leaders and scholars of the LAM. This is a lack of consistency. I propose leaving the Khilafutulmasih list as it is, and making a new list titled "Emirs" listing the leaders of the LAM. A 3rd list tilted "Scholars" can list prominent scholars from both groups combined.
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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on
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The colourized image used in the box is not a true representation of
Promised Messiah (as). I understand that the Lahore Ahmadiyya use this image in their publications, but a majority of Ahmadis (AMC) are opposed to using the image. There are photographs available which are of better quality and true
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Black is the colour of the
Ahmadiyya flag, not sure if that means that it is the color of Ahmadiyya, nevertheless the reason why I changed the colour is because a sharp dark colour looks excessively dominating on a page and so I wanted to change to a light background. There was no particular reason
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1 - Calling the two groups as branches is highly misleading. Simply untrue. I propose "organisations" 2 - In terms of the
Ahmadiyya only Noor-ud-Din is accepted by both the groups. After that the leadership is distinct. So it should be possible to make this fact clear on the template. Also the
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do not even mention the
Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in contrast to how the websites of the various auxiliaries of the Community do. If it was a part of the Community's organisational structure it would at least mention it on its offical websites would it not?. I still think it's more appropriately
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I would actually say that the word branches connotates the meaning that you are ascribing to organisations. Any how, before we discuss that further, I would suggest to remove the word "lahori" from the list title. Its a colliquial term and as khalifatulmasih list does not have any attached word
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You are just trying to artificially add up numbers for them against the mainstream
Ahmadis. Are you Lahori? Those mentioned from mainstream Ahmadis are well known even outside Ahmadiyya circles owning to their various contributions, political or philanthropic or due to controversies. Not the same
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I agree with the point that in LAM, the emirs are not revered in the same manner as the AMC Khalifas and that some personalities who have not been elected emirs are accorded a higher status owing to thier individual intellectual contributions to the cause. However, for the sake of consistency I
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Thank you so much for coming here to discuss with us, dear brother. First, can you define why they should be 'organisations' rather than branches? Elaborate on it, I only have a hint of where you're going with it. As far as the Lahori lack of consistency, I somewhat agree, however it was brother
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I think this is a bit too much. Templates don't need to tell you the nature of leaders. I mean, we can put Lahori Emirs as a title, or
Jamaati Caliphs as a title, but we don't need to point out if they're elected or not. That's what their respective pages are for. Templates just need to link to
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How about calling the list (presently called Lahori
Scholars) "Emirs and Scholars" and adding to it the names of the missing emirs. Also branches implies that LAM and AMC are branches of one main organisation; which they are not. They recognise the same spiritual leader and founder, but differ
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I apologise for having made the changes before seeing the discussion page. However, I still stand by some of the changes and would like to discuss them here. Before doing that it must be borne in mind that while aesthetics are important, presenting correct information must take precedence as
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Hope it looks good and has enough info for now. We need some help from
Ahmadis to make their articles better, they're really lacking right now. I'm surprised they haven't come earlier, since they're especially active in the English-speaking world. Everything here seems to be written by their
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I changed 'Scholars' to 'Lahori
Scholars'. It'll be difficult to point out the Khilafut Masih part, because it'd look sorta bad and most "Muslim Community" Ahmadiyya reject being called Qadiani or Rabwa and so forth. For now, I think this is the best we can do, unless you have another idea.
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Looks like I forgot to save my previous comment. Yes, I made that change, great idea. Now, I disagree with you about the 'branches' part. In fact, organizations makes it seem like they're two organizations in the same religion or aqeedah. To see elsewhere how we've used branches, check the
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would go with still having a seperate list of LAM emirs, perhaps calling them "elected emirs", to differentiate them from the AMC Khalifas (who are not elected), and then definitely having a list of personalities who are highly revered inspite of not holding any elected office.
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Both personalities are known internationally for their scholarly contributions to Islamic and Ahmadi literature. Adding them to the list in not POV pushing. However repeated removal of these names from the list may indicate a bias against the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement.
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Still does not qualify. A lot of nuts will qualify for writing a few books under "Islamic literature". General acceptance on importance of work and credibility is relevant. Unless he is a personal friend of yours and you know something what not many else
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I don't quite understand what you mean by "sneak in". Both Dr. Basharat and Naseer Ahmad are widely known and respected for their contribution to Islamic and Ahmadiyya literature - is evident from their well documented intellectual contributions.
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Dr. Basharat Ahmad is mentioned because of his prominence as an Ahmadi scholar and companion of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. He is notable for his comprehensive biogrpahy of Ghulam Ahmad's life as well many other intellectual contributions. Please see
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Wikipidea is more of an information portal rather than an art project. Having said that I would like to appreciate the great work done by Enzuru as the template looks great aesthetically and we should keep it that way to the extent possible.
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The uniting factor for prominent Lahori personalities would be the importance of their their scholarly output (to both Islamic as well as Ahmadiayya and Lahori) literature. I propose including the 4 personalities in the old template.
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I've added Baitul Futuh Mosque and reordered the list. Mubarak is already in the list, has a prominent link to the Islamabad, Tilford article, and covers much if the same detail. So including it seems like duplication. -- LCU
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2. I agree that the Lahori party does not revere its prominent personalities in that same manner as the Rabwa group. However scholars belonging to the Lahori party have as much importance for them as the caliphs of the Rabwa
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That was purposeful. Emirs and Scholars could apply to almost any branch of Islam, as they are vague terms. Khalifatul Masih however is a concept and term that is only and exclusively used in the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.
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What widely respected and significant personalities? Are you Lahori? As only you seem to know him. Is he widely known and respected outside Lahori community, a community which is pretty small on its own? Quit adding POV.
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everything in an organized matter. As far as what we should do. I still don't exactly know what to say. From Nazli, (1) would work (2) would be a bit too elaborate, and (3) would just be lacking important information. --
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Is everyone okay with the redesign? I didn't know exactly how to put Lahori people, nor if we should, because they simply do not have the same importance to Lahoris with the Caliphs have to the Muslim community.
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1. The new image is not representative of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement 2. References related to the differences in two branches of the movement (specifically their leaders/scholars) had been removed.
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Keeping this in mind, if may be unfair to the LAM to present a list of only their Emirs (some of whom are less significant than non-Emirs as far as their intellectual contributions are concerned).
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is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge (XXG) policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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2. However the LAM is strongly opposed to the concept of ahmadiyya khalifat based on genetic lineage, hence it is important present the kahlifas in a way that disassociates them from the LAM.
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Yes that is much better - greater neutrality. If we could somehow indicate on the template which sub-sect the personalities (khalifas and the Lahori scholars) belong to we would be all set.
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1. The Lahori party is strongly opposed to the concept of Ahmadiyya Khalifat. In its current form the template seems to imply that the the khalifas are also associated with the Lahori party.
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His work doesn’t appear substantial to mention his name in template. Writing a book or two should not be criteria to declare someone substantial. Someone is trying to impose his/her POV.
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I made some minor adjustments - hopefully this will sort out the issue of distinguishing between the personalities from the two parties. This way we don't have to use the term "Lahori".
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1. Khalifas have very important spiritual significance for the AMC which does not have a direct counterpart in the LAM. From AMCs pov it is important to include them in the template.
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made some recent changes that we already disagreed upon because of aesthetic issues. I've invited him here for further discussion. I'd like to begin that with this statement. On the
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It is a great design. Just a minor correction. Tafseer Kabeer should be mentioned above Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth. Wasssalam. SK 08:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
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clearly states that Humanity First was established as a "non-political, non-sectarian" and "non-religious" charity. It is also notable that the official Humanity first websites
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Thanks so much for your kind words, everyone. Alright, under what such header can we unite and organize the Lahori leaders? What title unites them? And whom shall we include? --
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The image used in the template is representative only of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. If an image needs to be used at all, it should represent both branches of the movement.
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4. Eminence and spiritual importance in the LAM is based on the individual's literary and intellectual contribution to the cause of the movement (to the best of my knowledge)
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3. I believe that if we are going to mention personalities other than Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, then both sides of the sect need to be represented to maintain NPOV.
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3. The Emirs of the LAM are elected leaders, who no doubt exhibit spiritual eminence, but are not revered in the same manner as the the kahlifas of the AMC.
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Enzuru: yes this should do for now - more detail is likely to spoil your layout. Let me think about alternative ways to present this information.... Regds.
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You have given only one Lahori site reference and claim they are known internationally? By how many people? You and who? If anyone is biased its you.
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The Khalifa's in AMC are elected, the last election took place on 22nd April 2003, as Mirza Masroor Ahmad following the demise of Mirza Tahir Ahmad.
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Nazli who pushed this point till we could reach a better form. I think these changes would work, but will however await Nazli's opinion on this. --
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1343:'Humanity First' is, according to the following judgement, an equal part of the organisation structure as the 'Shura', 'MTA' and 'Jalsa Salana'.
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I disagree. Please note he has not written only "a book or two". He has been a consistent contributor to Islamic literature for decades and like
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suggestion and group leaders separately and scholars together. (3) eliminate all personalities other the Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from the template.
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In fact, Humanity First is therefore classed, by the community's own actions listed above, as above the MTA and Jalsa in the structure.
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representation of Promised Messiah (as). Kindly use these images to provide a more authentic addition to the info. box. Thanks. sk.
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Any extended confirmed users willing to try to add this and report if it looks good? Or does anyone have another color suggestion?
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template, we have included a section called "Early Imams" which consists of Imams that all branches do not necessarily accept (ie,
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A few ideas: (1) group LAM personalities under a generic term ("Eminent Personalities" or words to similar effect). (2) Take
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185:-related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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I apologize, I was not thinking of the colors / caps - please go ahead make any changes that you feel will look better.
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qualifying it as specifc to AMC, the emirs and scholars list should not have a term qualifying it as specific to LAM.
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A minor correction, Khalifatul Masih is a term used for Hakeem even by Lahoris. My reference is this Lahori website:
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The Ahmadi community raises money for Humanity First charity projects year round (through flagship annual events).
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With a parameter and a switch inside the template, the image may change. So you can have two indipendend images. --
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http://www.barkinganddagenhampost.co.uk/ahmadi-children-raise-3-000-for-humanity-first-in-dagenham-1-5043566
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Here are some more references from sites not related to the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement. Library of Congress
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organisations have members of the Community as permanent staff, and all four were founded by the Caliphs.
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Actually he does qualify based on "General acceptance on importance of work and credibility". Please see
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the Community does not necessarily mean that it is part of the Community's organisational structure (or
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As the designer of this present day mutant, I have taken out the smallcaps and faded the blue colour. --
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Including the names of some widely respected and significant personalities is not an imposition of POV.
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is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under
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I agree with Malik07, the over all design and formating is well done. However I have a few issues:
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Considering that I have previously failed to leave enough evidence, I hope this evidence helps.
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Keeping these issues in mind I it may be fair to incorporate this information into the template.
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That's fine with me, but please change the colors and partial caps; they are a real eyesore. -
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I made a few changes on top of yours. I'll need to check it on Internet Explorer, however. --
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Based on my (limited) knowledge I believe that the following points need to be considered:
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radically over the interpretation of his teachings and are two distinct organisations
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This is my judgement, you may differ in opinion. Feel free to present contrary facts.
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Add the following articles to the template, under the "United Kingdom" heading:
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I made major changes in layout. If there are any issues please discuss.Thanks.
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have institutional international conferences held by the current Caliph.
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why I chose a trace of blue as the background other than readability and
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detractors with only some non-partisan parties lightening things up. --
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You are imposing Lahori POV. This site is Lahori. Are you Lahori too?
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Thank you for bringing this to the talk page. Being an organisation
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Knowledge (XXG) article constitutes fair use. In addition to the
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the latest changes to the template for the following reasons:
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 October 2023
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I've given them the rationale. We'll see what happens. --
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Enzuru, its breathtaking brilliant. Thanks for doing it.
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Why the change of colors from the official ones of the
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is not mentioned because he was the father in law of
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or the Buddhism template as a guide for formatting.
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1124:. If you have any questions please ask them at the
1415:https://www.khalifaofislam.com/tag/humanity-first/
1606:Add a background color to the Ahmadiyya template
109:does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s
354:has has personal contact and interaction with
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1114:Knowledge (XXG):Fair use rationale guideline
684:I made the edit. Tell me what you think. --
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403:with people you are trying to sneak in.
1365:are run by the Community all year round.
1614:and, the color matches the one used in
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311:for links to many of his famous works.
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1065:Fair use rationale for Image:Ahmad.png
1652:Template-Class Islam-related articles
175:This template is within the scope of
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1657:NA-importance Islam-related articles
1616:Template:Infobox religious building
1610:Looking at other templates such as
115:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
1339:Humanity First as an organisation?
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1007:http://aaiil.org/ahmadiyyat.shtml
195:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Islam
45:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
1662:NA-importance Ahmadiyya articles
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1112:. Using one of the templates at
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1477:placed under Miscellaneous. --
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1126:Media copyright questions page
564:. From an anti-ahmadiyya site
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398:03:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
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277:Redid the look and other stuff
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1667:Ahmadiyya task force articles
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1437:http://www.mercy4mankind.org/
1095:boilerplate fair use template
559:. Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
189:and see a list of open tasks.
37:Put new text under old text.
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1520:to reactivate your request.
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567:. Miscellaneous references
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1403:References
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51:get help
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1320:--Peace
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