1408:, and signes *** Эɱ®εč¡κ ***) with a single edit in this matter and who has attacked me twice in my talk page calling me a racist and a vandal (and received my protocolar warnings for that), and has also attacked other user. Having said this, in no way does this diminishes the content and value of your comments. I just wanted to let you know the people we are dealing with. Notice, please, that this discussion is not about the Otoman Empire, but about modern Turkey. And no one is saying, I think, that one must exclude Turkish and/or Islamic realities from European history, namely in the Balkans. The question here, bearing in mind that of course there are countries (such as Turkey) that present both European and non-European caractheristics, is how to categorize countries that either have a substancial or the totality of their respective territory outside Europe, or countries for which there is a substancial controversy regarding their inclusion in the European cultural matrix. The previous debate was mainly between the position (defended by Izmir lee/ Aegean Boy) that Turkey is
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Greeks migrated to the West to avoid persecution and for economic reasons. This continued up until the mid-20th century. By contrast, the Greeks of
Anatolia (Turkey) were there before the Ottoman conquest. There was no migration to Anatolia from Greece, and their experience has been markedly different. They were subject to pogroms and persecution which the Greek in the western European diaspora were not. Rather than migrating to Turkey in the 20th century for economic reasons, they were sent to Greece as part of a population exchange agreement. Thus, their experience and history are the complete opposite of the Greeks in Western Europe. Their culture is also more influenced by Middle Eastern cultures, especially in terms of mentality, art, cuisine. Thus, to include the Greeks of Anatolia with the Greek diaspora in the West makes absolutely no sense. We are not going to go ahead with such nonsense in this article in order to appease the "wannabe European" complex of some people. --
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should be in the Asian group, since only 3% of its territory lies in Europe (not to mention the fact that culturally it can not be said straightforwardly to be simply
European). And also: that Russia should be in the European group, given the undispute European nature of Russia's culture (even if it did expand into Asia and this should also be noted); that Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan are basically Asian countries, even if they have a small part of their territory in geographical Europe; that Armenia, Georgia are borderline cases, generally only included in Europe due to their cultural caractherisitics, such as Cristianity. I do acknowledge these ambiguities. The ones (basically the one) that defended an opposite view had no room for these ambiguities, and basically shouted "Turkey is European" a lot. I propose, in order to resolve this dispute and the protected status of the template this new version in the section below. What does everyone say about it? Thanks!
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Europe nonetheless. Just because the name of a country doesn't sound usual to a
Western Anglophone ear doesn't mean it is geographically isolated from Europe. Modern Azerbaijan, having been part of the Russian Empire and the USSR for centuries, in fact shares a lot more similarities with Europe in terms of lifestyles than with Oman or Yemen. There is no basis in your attempts to present Georgia and Armenia as European and Azerbaijan as Asian, except your cultural prejudice. I suggest you examine this 'Countries of Europe' template before you make anymore reverts
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User Aegean Boy seems, given the political positions stated in his user page, to be completely incapable of understanding, of even accepting, this dual nature of Turkey and the fact that most of the country is in Asia (as well as the fact that a great part of its culture is linked not to Europe but to the Middle East). It's strange to see someone (a Turk) refusing a significant part of his culture and identity. And it does remind one of a permanentely banned editor,
1819:. The Greeks of the former Soviet bloc shared together the experience of Soviet rule, including deportations, and in some instances have been heavily influenced by Russian and other Soviet bloc cultures. For this reason, they constitute yet another distinct diasporic group. As for Africa, there are again two main groups: There are the Greeks of Egypt, largely descended from Greeks of Turkey who fled to Egypt to escape persecution in Turkish lands following the
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1241:, it has become more common to divide into "Europe+Western Asia", and "Eastern Asia+Southern Asia", as has been done in several country lists on Knowledge. I suggest doing a similar thing on this template. However, since there are no countries mentioned which come under "Eastern Asia+Southern Asia", there won't be a need for that category, and the term "Eurasia" can be applied. Note,
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I think the disputes over
Armenia and Turkey have been resolved. There is nothing controversial about including Turkey under "Traditional areas of Greek settlement", and Armenia under "former Soviet Union", because that makes perfect sense in the context of the Greek diaspora. By contrast, there is
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And Aegean coasts of anatolia was the homeland of Greeks in the past i know but you say turkey must be in asia in diaspora template? But armenia wasn't homeland of greeks but you put them in europe? and why did you change
Eurasia. I agree with 89.242.104.114 too. Turkey (Ottoman Empire) is in Europe
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You have a good point there. Maybe we can split them. I'm also not sure what to do about the Greek populations in neighboring countries such as
Albania and Turkey, as they are not really "diaspora" but indigenous. So maybe we can also include neighboring countries in a separate heading, and leave
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We are talking about the Greek diaspora here. In this context, there is no such thing as "Eurasia", and the experiences of Greeks living in what is now Turkey are fundamentally different form those of western Europe. The Greeks diaspora in western Europe arose after the
Ottoman conquest, when many
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But Europe is a cultural as well as a geographical entity, and culturally speaking, Turkey and
Azerbaijan are not the least bit European. There is NOTHING in the culture of those countries tying them to Europe. And by the way, citing other wikipedia articles, modified by users such as yourself, is
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European (in fact this user tried to erase any possible connection between Turkey and Asia or the
Islamic and Turkic culture and history in a great number of articles) and those, such as I, that defended that, from a categorization point of view (as the one needed in this type of templates), Turkey
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For your information, Azerbaijan is a full member of the
Council of Europe and geographically is partially in Europe, unlike Armenia which is fully located in Asia and which has likewise been associated for millennia with the Iranian and Turkic cultural milieu, but which you decided to include into
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Turkey is both in Europe and in Asia (Islamic Middle East), presenting caractheristics of both. Given that only about 3% of its territory is in Europe it should be listed in the Asia category. The mere statement and parade of maps is not an argument for Turkey's straight categorization as European.
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First, I'm not a suckpuppet of any banned users! Turkey is European like Armenia, Cyprus, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Russia and Kazakhstan. These countries are both partly or completely located in Asia but they are all European. You put Armenia(100% in Asia) and Russia(67% in Asia) to Europe but you put
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Good points, The Ogre. What's really important here is context. For example, in the context of sports, Turkey should be listed as European because its teams participate in European tournaments, both at the club and national level. That is what the relevant sporting bodies, and Knowledge should
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The Greek Diaspora in Western Europe originated with Greek migrations during the twilight years of the Byzantine Empire and during the Ottoman period for mostly economic reasons. The Greeks of Anatolia are for the large parts descended from the original Greek colonists of the ancient, Roman and
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Also, Aegean Boy brought up an interesting prospective on his sockpuppetery case page. If Turkey is to be placed in the "Asia" category, then why not Russia? Having the "Eurasia" category has so far been successful in dealing with this kind of debate, on the pages it has so far been used, and I
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Stop deleting talk pages and accusing me of using suckpuppets Tsourkpk!!! Why do you say Georgia, Armenia and Cyprus are European, Turkey and Azerbaijan are Asian?! Because they are turkic and muslims and you are christian hence you don't like them. This was the idea of 12nd century! The
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Greek diaspora is a term used to refer to the communities of Greek people living outside of the traditional Greek homelands in southeast Europe and Asia Minor. Members of the diaspora can be identified as those who themselves, or whose ancestors, migrated from the Greek homelands.
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The Greek communities in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union have also had a very different experience. While some communities have ancient roots, such as the Pontic Greeks, others are post-WW2 arrivals who fled Greece after the defeat of communist forces in the
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was their capital since 1365. (I am also Greek but just try to read Balkan history since the 14th century while excluding the Ottomans and their influence. It is an impossibility. The same goes for a European definition that excludes Turkish and/or Islamic populations.)
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Yes, I am referring to the disputes of where certain countries, such as Armenia and Turkey fit. This way allows for a clarity onto which one cannot argue "but country x should be instead placed in category b", or so-like arguments, if you see what I am saying.
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held territories in Asia, Europe and Africa and should probably belong to the historical background of all three continents. I basically agree with Aegean Boy here. By the way a minor correction, the Ottomans did not start their expansion in Europe under
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follow that. However, the picture is totally different in the context of the Greek Diaspora. The origins, history, and experience of the Greek diaspora in Western Europe is vastly different from that of the Greeks of Anatolia (Turkey). Analytically:
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Having lived in Turkey for centuries, Greeks from Turkey have absorbed certain elements of Turkish culture, particularly cuisine, that is completely absent from the Greek diaspora in the West. These two communities are thus vastly different from each
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separated by a tectonic plate) but they have still been put together as one on the template, so the idea of joining Europe and Asia into one category certainly shouldn't be such a problem. I will conduct the changes and see if there is
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are geographically in Asia, they are politically, culturally, ethnically, and linguistically considered European. Also, may I point out to people that the ideas of "Europe" and "Asia" are simply man-made, and do not actually exist as
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Turkey(96% in Asia) and Kazakhstan(95% in Asia) to Asia. WHY? Because you say Islamic Middle East. This shows us that you are classifying countries by their religion! I read your talk page and I saw that a user wrote "
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Byzantine periods, with roots going back to the 13th century BC in some cases. Rather than migrate, they were there in the first place, before the Turkish conquest of Anatolia. That is a huge difference.
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the rest in Eastern Europe and former Soviet Union. Or maybe we can split it into three (neighboring countries, eastern Europe, fm SU). Don't know what to do yet. I'll see what other articles, such as
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I think this is the best way to solve this dispute only one exception. I separate Greece and Cyprus, Turkey and Egypt and put them in alphabetical order. This is better than The Ogre's. --
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So technically, the Greek populations in neighboring countries shouldn't even be included, as they are not considered diaspora. We could include them under a separate grouping though. --
828:) in 1959 and became an associate member in 1963. After decades of political negotiations, Turkey applied for full membership of the EEC in 1987, became an associate member of the
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since 1453. And Turkey is a member of Council of Europe and EU candidate and Western EU's associate member and several other European organizations.. --
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After all the above discutions, I've asked the admin who protected the template to unprotect it in order to upload the version below. Thanks.
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2176:) but having socio-political connections with Europe. Substancially in Asia, but has part of its territory in Europe. Wholy in Asia.
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What is diaspora context? Please show me. And why armenia is in europe not in asia? And Europe isn't only western europe like you say
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1802:. By contrast the Greek diaspora in the West has been free of such persecution. Modern Greece is full of refugees from the 1922
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Do you really think that eastern europe should be mixed with the former soviet union? I mean mixing Uzbekistan and Albania...
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I thus propose the following grouping, based on similarities among communities, rather than the traditional seven continents:
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I'd say remove Greece and Cyprus altogether, move Romania and Serbia into Eastern Europe, and Egypt into middle East. --
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European military alliances during WWI: Central Powers purplish-red, Entente powers grey and neutral countries yellow
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is both European and Asian by definition, the country should appear in templates dealing with both continents. The
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Hello Dimadick! Before replying to your comments, let me just say that the main user who maintained the dispute (
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fought against Muslims because of people who thought like you. Please accept that Europe isn't only Christian.
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OH! Behold! There are maps that do not included Asian Turkey in Europe!! What a surprise! I wonder why?
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which was inaugurated on January 17, 1875, was the first underground railway line in continental Europe
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have always been a central part of Turkish foreign policy. Turkey became a founding member of the
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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I agree with Tsourkpk. Besides, Greater Europe is a contentious and less known concept.
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POV? What POV? Could you please explain? Have you read the above discussion? --
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intend to keep my eye on this article to make sure Greek nationalist users do not
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I have to say, I agree with Aegean Boy here. While it is commonly known that
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You can see Turkey in Europe not in Asia or Middle East in the BBC's website.
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no such thing as "Greater Europe", so that might create controversy. --
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Are you seriously suggesting Turkey does not have a European culture? XD
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In line with its traditional Western orientation, relations with
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Wouldn't it be better to rename this template so that it matches
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and it is Europe's largest city too. The city was chosen as
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Poster advertising the Winter 1888-1889 timetable for the
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user who now defends their position against all other is
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Tsourkpk, Stop vandalising articles or i'll report you.
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Let me know what you think of this proposed scheme. --
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Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe
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Population growth and decline of European countries
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2201:It's ok with me. Two questions for clarification:
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1177:not a valid way to argue. --
838:formal accession negotiations
106:and see a list of open tasks.
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3854:NA-importance Greek articles
1433:I propose this new version.
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892:Also in the New York Times'.
159:Turkey is a European country
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1330:Aegean Boy
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2020:Ukraine
2002:Romania
1984:Hungary
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1900:Belgium
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698:Caspian
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555:Kingdom
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474:Romania
437:N. Mac.
430:Nether.
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351:S. Mar.
327:Ireland
320:Iceland
313:Hungary
299:Georgia
292:Germany
269:Finland
262:Estonia
255:Denmark
239:Croatia
229:Channel
200:Belarus
186:Austria
179:Andorra
3792:Panama
3786:Mexico
3768:Canada
3762:Brazil
3702:Russia
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3342:Turkey
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3306:Poland
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3013:Panama
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2808:Serbia
2790:Greece
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2052:Turkey
2014:Serbia
2008:Russia
1996:Poland
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1906:France
1810:other.
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1570:Sweden
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1516:France
1398:single
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1230:Turkey
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1078:Russia
873:Europe
814:Europe
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676:Bay of
649:Aegean
638:Baltic
585:Cyprus
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539:Turkey
532:erland
530:Switz-
523:Sweden
495:Serbia
481:Russia
460:Poland
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374:Latvia
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276:France
214:Bosnia
109:Greece
100:Greece
59:Greece
36:scale.
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3631:Italy
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3538:Greek
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2995:Chile
2852:Italy
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2759:Greek
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2098:Chile
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773:Ocean
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334:Italy
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193:Azer.
28:This
3780:Cuba
3490:talk
3471:talk
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1084:and
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1251:are
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1082:oil
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822:EEC
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689:Sea
658:Sea
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