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citations, perhaps in various gay oriented magazines which might have done pop-culture pieces; I know
Northstar's had real-world coverage. However, Caiera and Excello are recent additions, both of whom have only had a few storylines. I'd have to wonder if we shouldn't have some standard for them. Similarly, Abomination, Hulkbusters, Leader, Maestro, Thunderbolt Ross, Glenn Talbot all have lengthy, durable histories with the character, while Agamemnon, Bi-Beast, Madman, Mercy, Gamma Corps, Galaxy Master, John Ryker, Tyrannus, U-Foes, Xemnu, and Zzzax all suffer from either serious dustbunnies on a back shelf(BiBeast, Xemnu, Zzzax), or recentism (Ryker, Gamma Corps). The most recent characters really need to 'percolate' before their long-term relation to the character is firm. Just me and wanting to strip it down and avoid recentism.
1119:
being loaned out, I see it more as charactes gravitating towards each other, and should be gauged in terms of both exclusiveness and number of appearances. When Hulk's most powerful foes were gathered to show his power as
Apocalypse's horseman, it was just Absorbing Man and the Juggernaut who got selected. Absorbing Man fights Hulk roughly (or at least almost) as often as Thor, and Hulk is Juggernaut's main single sparring partner. No third source has outlined why exactly most other characters should be there either, but we take it as self-evident. She-Hulk I definitely need help with. The supporting characters are fine, but othervise she mostly uses any available goofy character from all over the place, along with a few exclusives such as Titania, Spragg, and Captain Rectitude, not all of whom have a profile here yet.
684:
can accept him in the allies list. I think that really, Hulk's big brawl foes aren't as important in the main (Abomination excepted), as they've for 20 plus years been most of a plot device for examining the Banner/Hulk struggle. That said, I'm glad no one's arguing for ManBull to be on the list. Wendigo being here's accetpable for me, but mostly for the significant in terms of
Publication History and the Wolverine debut. As to MODOK, Hulk's fought AIM enough times over the years for me to accept either AIM ro MODOK to the list, but not both. If we were really oriented towards psychology and literature, we'd list " Enemies:
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1278:. If so I apologize. I am trying to limit it to more major characters which I can understand it being a little debatable. Here's a thread to discuss the inclusion/exclusion of Flux and other characters that could be re-added. Although I do think the navbox might be better off semi-protected to protect itself from IPs that use no summary for their inclusion.
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or non reader of the comics would group the character here. Juggernaut, Absorbing Man, and
Titania don't meet that criteria. If you want to make an argument that they should be, it is really going to require you pointing to a reliable, secondary, third-party source. And just to be crystal clear, that
429:
I've put a note on the 'Hands about AfD'ing it. I'll give it a few days, then follow up. I'm wondering about recentism and scale for supporting characters. Betty, Rick, and Doc Samson have decades-long associations with the character, Jim Wilson's death from HIV can probably be supported via external
1193:
All right, never mind then. They are included in the extended articles and that will have to be enough. However, I didn't mean to imply that
Juggernaut was in a Hulk movie, just that he's well known. I also still don't really get exactly where the line is drawn for which characters to include, since
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Does anyone else think that it makes sense to add
Juggernaut to the template? He has turned into almost as much of a signature Hulk villain as X-villain with time. Also, She-Hulk is perhaps the character closest associated with the Hulk, but probably doesn't have enough of a recurring roster to make
683:
I'm with J Greb on most of those conclusions. I'm ok with Zzzax over Xemnu, actually, given that many fans find the 2003 film's climax to be in some ways like that... an electric beast. I'm also in support of dropping Herc, and Sentry. Since Dr. Strange figured prominently in the
Crossroads story, I
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Madman and Galaxy Master are arguably major Hulk foes, but for a character with a very sporadic rogues gallery. By the rationale that these should be discluded, so should most of the cast for the Thor template and many others. It all depends on how thin you want the various Marvel 'family templates'
1076:? Which Hulk film was the character in? At best the character is an X-Men centric foe that got "loaned out". Remember, Marvel has a history doing that for the odd story. It's the very rare character that is actually "shared" by more than one "rogues gallery", like Kingpin (Spider-Man and Daredevil).
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It's better to stick with the ones that have played a significant role, and are associated with the character, or play a current main role for those newly interested. According to the recent "World
Without a Hulk" She-Hulk storyline The Leader, Abomination, Wendigo, Zzaxx, and U-Foes are considered
343:
thanks for the invite... I'd drop the Hulk hands and nom that for AfD as non-notable promotional stuff, and I wonder if we shouldn't discuss notable creators, and retitle it as writers and artists, or something, given Peter David's 15 year run, Mantlo's durable effects, and maybe a couple others...
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I noticed that a few primary Spider-Man villians were added on the Hulk villians section that probably don't belong here. Villians like Doctor
Octopus and Sandman. Sandman would belong into a Fantastic Four villians section (Frightul Four) before he belongs in a Hulks villian section even though I
583:
I'm going to start off with some thing that I posted at another of the template talks. When you are arguing for the inclusion of a character in a template, stop and ask yourself this question: "Would the casual reader of Marvel Comics, someone with out my deep knowledge of, and affection for, this
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No, he was in the third X-Men film. I was referring to that he is well known to the public, since that seemed like a concern. A version of the
Absorbing Man did appear in a Hulk movie however, i.e. third party sources are there, but the identity was twisted around to Hulk's father I think. As for
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Marvel character's past. Doctor Strange elicits "the Sorcerer Supreme" or "the guy from the Defenders". not "Hulk's sidekick." And Hercules, even with WWH will get "Avengers" or "Thor". Even though they have appeared in stories with the Hulk and in magazines titled for the character, they no more
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present in early drafts of the script, that the scriptwriters commented on the source of the idea in interviews, and that some comics toned reviewers mentioned the resemblance. All of that is why the film is mention in the Absorbing Man article. However, the final film doesn't name the character
668:
Xemnu and Zzaxx have monster origins, or at least Zzaxx supposedly had a lookalike named Blip, but are likevise closely associated with the character, and the entire point of Xemnu was to give Hulk classic monsters to fight. (As a sidenote Xemnu was also the original Hulk) Zzaxx should likely be
551:
In summary, Wendigo, and Glorian should definitely be kept. Armageddon and Scorpion would be nice as well. Possibly Juggernaut, Absorbing Man and Nightmare, but if each character is limited to one grouping, I suppose they should go into their introduction families. There is also the problem of
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The comics, the primary sources, are only good for showing two things: 1) that a foe was created specifically for a particular character and 2) a the appearances of a foe have been primarily in stories featuring or focusing on a particular character. The Absorbing Man was created for Thor and
656:
I suppose that you're right about Black and Armageddon. Armageddon has potential, but is uninteresting for a regular Knowledge (XXG) reader, and while Scorpion is heavily hinted to be Hulk's daughter, and has appeared more in association with him than other MU heroes (i.e. at all) Marvel will
1079:
Absorbing Man has the same problem. The film appearance wasn't. It was, as noted in the article, an element that changed drastically in the scrip development stage. That pretty much leaves the character as a Thor centric villain. Unless there is a reliable, third party source laying out why
499:
Absorbing Man, Juggernaut, Modok and Nightmare were introduced elsewhere, but have played the parts of major adversaries or sparring-partners over the years, but if weeding is necessary they're good candidates, especially Modok, although I orginally intended to segment between 'primary' and
652:
Strictly off the top of my head Mercy first appeared as an antagonist during the McFarlane years, then in an annual, after that during Betty's near-death experience, later in the Heroes Reborn era to herald the Celestials, and, most recently, in the recent Hulk: Destruction video game, and
503:
Wendigo was introduced as, and has traditionally been considered a Hulk villain, with recurrent match-ups, so disagreed. Wolverine has the roughly same relationship to this creature as Hulk has to the Absorbing Man. I'm not sure if it has even fought Alpha Flight beyond that X-Men team-up.
392:
There's been a fair bit of resistance to including other wirters and artists to the 'box by name. The best solution I've seen the the one from the Batman template: Putting the later writers, like David, itno a list article and adding that to the 'box. It prevents a "piling on"
535:
While he has only been the main antagonist in two storylines, Armageddon is another of the Hulk villains I'd technically like to see added to the villains roster, given the power-level, reach, sworn vendetta, and connection to Trauma, but the character has no entry as of yet.
552:
weeding too thin. The Hulk has a rather limited, and seldom-used, rogues gallery as is. It's preferable to at least showcase what little the character has, old, recent, or tastefully aged, whatever the last category may subjectively entail. The
1238:
It shoud be noted that Absorbing Man was on Marvel.com's Top ten villains that make Hulk angry. Now I am not saying that means he is Hulk-centric because Moonstone was on there and she could be arguably non Hulk centric too. Here's the source.
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Bereet, Madman, Mercy, and Galaxy Master all fall under "Who?". Bereet you make a good case for, putting her in the same role as Jarella and Caiera. Mercy you still need to sell — how often is recurring? Came back once or twice? More
495:
Doctor Strange is arguably the self-sustained major Marvel hero most connected with the Hulk, due to their time in the Defenders, but if being a string-on character is a necessary quality for inclusion he should go as well.
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against recent story elements. In a case like this, pulling a heavily used character just because it is from recent or current stories is as bad as pulling a long term character that hasn't been used in a decade. -
1174:" - At a lot of levels that is reader interpretation. The intent there could also be "Any muscle bound oaf that faced the Hulk" or "The collection of the strongest MU characters that the writer was allowed to use".
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link what I want to add to this topic or a different one?" If the honest answer is "No", the article shouldn't be in the template. If its "Who?" or "What?" you may have to sell it when it gets pulled out of the
1039:
Well, Juggernaut is well-known, as is Absorbing Man, having even been included in one movie each, and they do tend to fight Hulk as recurrently as half the other listed foes, so I'd say that they should
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Both Xemnu and Zzzax, IIRC, came from the "Pit Hulk against the 1950s Marvel monsters" phase. The only saving grace was that these two wound up finding a warm spot with the Hulk writers and kept coming
738:, and this is in no way advocating this, there were a section for "Allies", I could see inserting Doctor Strange and a few others there. The section though is "supporting cast", which Strange isn't. -
1022:
Lastly, the topic here is "Hulk" not the "Hulk Family". The inclusion of She-Hulk as a supporting character isn't a stretch, but pulling in her exclusive "supporting cast" and "signature foes" is.
513:
Madman was introduced in Hulk, and used as a major villain, but only twice. He does however have very good potential, given the lacklustre quality of most of the, non-extended, rogues gallery.
705:
One more thought. While I accept the above discussion of Recentism and the double-edged sword, I'd say that Gamma Corps is definite recentism, and should go till that becomes more established.
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Wendigo is a bit of a thorn. The sporadic use across title has done a good job making it a "MU monster/foe" rather than linking to a specific character. Glorian has this same problem.
510:
Bereet was a major supporting character and brief love interest way back, so it's ambivalent, but given lack of other 'good' supporting characters it might be an idea to keep her.
370:. That's OK, but it may not be the best historical overview of the Hulk. I'd definitely put Ross into the "Villains" section; that has been his usual function in the stories. --
962:
think he would be an good villian for The Hulk. The only exception I think is Rhino since he is a major burrowed villian like Juggernaut, Absorbing Man, MODOK, and Nightmare.
665:
only feature Doctor Doom, Super Skrull, Frightful Four, Annihilus and Galactus, or go a little further? At the very least Madman should probably be kept in the latter case.
110:
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This template has been semi-protected in an effort to get annom editors to discuss the addition of minor characters or characters that are not solely Hulk related.
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quite a lot seem to get featured in several "rosters columns"? Absorbing Man has fought Hulk at least 6 times, so to me that seemed enough and almost up with Thor.
669:
kept, even if I personally don't care much for either it or the Bi-(don't bully me for my name)Beast, but yes, it's been quite a while for Xemnu or Galaxu Master.
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930:
Navigation templates are not the place to put redlinks to ask for new articles - the most likely way to add links for "storylines" that don't yet have articles.
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Galaxy Master is a very old foe, that I don't personally care for, but one of the most powerful, and was very important for the storylines it was featured in.
116:
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her own template, so adding her (only true) nemesis Titania might make sense. The latter is also married to the Absorbing Man, who is a recurring Hulk foe.
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first, but then so did Wolverine. I'm not sure which title Wendigo has appeared in more often. As the navbox stands now, it somewhat resembles the TOC from
120:
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600:
Absorbing Man, Juggernaut, MODOK, and Nightmare follow the same logic. They were "borrowed" for Hulk stories, important or not, and returned afterwards.
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be featured in the supporting cast, given that it's hinted that she is Bruce Banner's daughter, and she's been featured in two recent Hulk storylines?
646:
Absorbing Man and Juggernaut as well, although they've arguably migrated into shared foes, with nearly as recurrent appearances as The Abomination.
1298:
688:" and be done, LOL. The Hulk is one of the greatest ongoing 'Man vs Self' conflicts. Anyways, I think we're all ok with dropping Herc and Sentry,
617:
As for Black and Armageddon... The first is a solo character at best at the moment. It may be that the writers go where you think they're going.
1093:... I'm seeing problems there as well... Spider-Man centric character, Howard centric character, generic MU characters, Defenders villain team,
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be there, but unless someone else chimes in, it's not a big deal. As for Titania, I started to fill out the pre-existing, but practically empty
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loose, and Sentry was retroactively added as a supposed major element, and very good friend, but hasn't really been in many Hulk stories.
1167:
Once we get beyond that we get into what amounts to a fan's pissing match - each fan arguing for his/her personal favorite(s) being added.
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525:
Xemnu is one of Hulk's most original villains, even if it hasn't appeared so much, and, in addition, is one of the She-Hulk's main foes.
910:
1152:, provide support for that. Your statement implied that the Juggernaut was included in a film that justified such a link to the Hulk.
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Yes, Ang Lee's Hulk did include a character patterned after the Absorbing Man. And yes, there are reliable sources that the term
1197:
Btw: If anyone reading this has some pointers or information to improve the She-Hulk template with, hep would be appreciated.
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or non reader would ask "Who?" when a particular character is mentioned, that character may really be to minor for inclusion.
834:
This template has been protected due to contentious additions/reversions. Please discuss additions here on the talk page. -
933:
Splitting "Planet Hulk" out from the articles that currently cover it should be brought up on those talk pages, not here.
903:
I thik that that there should be more storylines inthe storyline section, and Planet Hulk should have it's own page,
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his 'classical' trademark villains, or at least those most easily seamlessly inserted into this particular story.
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Wendigo and Glorian are most closely associated with the character and have reoccurred over a long span of time.
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Thunderbolt Ross - Given the variation of the character over time, it could be place with Talbot in the "Foes"
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John Ryker, like Madman, was only in two storylines, but played the part of a major antagonist in these.
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but that gets subjective, so maybe not? but the hulk hands can go, as can the roller coaster, I think.
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I've moved this from where it was plunkedinto an old thread... Is this the start of a new discusion?
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I think there should be an article on just the charachter of the Hulk. What do you guys think?
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I don't know how many times I could removed Flux. It could have gone over or still counted as
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Thomas Gideon was introduced in FF, but Glorian has always been a Hulk 'foe', so disagreed.
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intrinsically linked to that character. 9 times out of 10 that should be as far as it goes.
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Thanks for pointing out Absorbing Man Dave, since that shouldn't be in the template either.
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Characters to Supporting characters - Since the bulk of the section is the supporting cast.
767:
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As for Madman and Galaxy Master... what you've described sounds like B-List foes, at best.
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Hercules has recently been included in the Hulk family, but agreed that the connection is
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removed. This created an unexplained, unnatural sort pattern. restored alphabetic sorting.
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those articles are turffed as the result of an AfD. Otherwise, they fit where they are.
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Sentry is associated with the Avengers, regardless of the massive retcon insert into
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be a platform for any character that appeared with the subject character. Lets
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Glorian - Fantastic Four character, at best. General MU character at worst.
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Hercules - Avengers related character, at best (or worst depending on POV)
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be a platform for any character that opposed the subject character. Lets
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Inclusion - Are these really core characters or primary signature foes?
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Glenn Talbot - Used primarily as a antagonist for Banner, not a support.
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Sentry - Avengers related character, at best (or worst depending on POV)
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so I'm going to do that now, we'll leave the rest till we've got more.
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http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.3816.take_10~colon~_hulk_villains
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1160:"Absorbing Man". Nor does it make the character a Hulk centric foe.
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there may be good reason to add her. As for Armageddon... "Who?" =
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and keep it to the characters from the various self-titled runs.
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Mercy has been a very recurrent semi-adversary over the years.
785:, and I'm sure your suggestions would get a through airing at
556:, to use an example, is certainly no different in this regard.
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But I think I'll flip Ross... GG's comment rings very true. -
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of the concern. The full phrase is "Well known to the public
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I'm inclined to agree with the above. Wendigo did appear in
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The Abomnation and the Leader the archenemies of the Hulk
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Doctor Strange - His own character, has appeared in story
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published by Marvel or licensed by them is going to work.
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intrinsic to or dependent on the Hulk than say Wolverine.
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mini-series. She's stuck around for almost 20 years now.
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and keep it to the recognizable, A-list signature foes.
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If you would like to participate, you can help with the
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There really aren't that many notable Hulk story lines.
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as part of the characters linked primarily to the Hulk
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she becomes a part, friend or foe, of a Hulk series,
643:As above, I agree about Herc, Strange, and Sentry.
242:Absorbing Man - Thor signature villain, not Hulk.
1309:Template-Class Comics articles of NA-importance
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254:MODOK - SHIELD and Iron Man villain at best.
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396:I can see yanking the Hands and 'coster,
245:Wendigo - Wolverine/Alpha Flight villain.
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528:As an additional note: Should Scorpion/
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121:notice board
119:, visit the
111:Get involved
109:
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40:WikiProjects
29:
905:—Preceding
854:—Preceding
781:Please see
586:immediately
321:<br: -->
277:Relocated:
1293:Categories
1281:Jhenderson
899:storylines
768:Rustyfence
308:John Ryker
288:Placement
1099:WP:NAVBOX
830:Protected
239:Villains
198:Removed:
1088:She-Hulk
1042:probably
957:Villians
907:unsigned
868:contribs
856:unsigned
812:Thanks,
663:FF entry
318:Layout:
30:template
1083:As for
1069:By whom
1010:nothing
707:ThuranX
693:ThuranX
432:ThuranX
393:effect.
346:ThuranX
182:Weeding
1276:WP:3RR
1181:J Greb
1150:cannot
1106:J Greb
1027:J Greb
1017:casual
1008:means
1005:casual
940:J Greb
886:J Greb
817:J Greb
791:J Greb
740:J Greb
631:J Greb
607:often?
580:David,
467:J Greb
405:J Greb
330:J Greb
302:Madman
299:Bereet
134:Comics
106:comics
64:Marvel
59:Comics
36:scale.
614:back.
594:every
589:'box.
305:Mercy
28:This
1270:Flux
1248:talk
1203:talk
1199:Dave
1185:talk
1142:part
1125:talk
1121:Dave
1110:talk
1095:Hulk
1080:not.
1054:talk
1050:Dave
1031:talk
988:talk
984:Dave
968:talk
944:talk
915:talk
890:talk
864:talk
836:jc37
821:talk
795:talk
789:. -
772:talk
744:talk
711:talk
697:talk
686:Hulk
675:talk
671:Dave
635:talk
627:then
568:talk
564:Dave
542:talk
538:Dave
490:very
471:talk
436:talk
409:talk
376:talk
364:Hulk
350:talk
334:talk
206:with
125:edit
1157:was
623:and
271:try
267:not
231:try
227:not
1295::
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42::
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