422:, a historical station located east of the WTC station which replaced it. If there is a wish to indicate adjacent lines, the WTC configuration will need to be corrected and the Hudson Terminal station restored (in keeping with the rest of the diagram showing historical stations). The current & correct diagram should not be altered. In general, the additional information generally clutters the line map; the benefit is dubious. Consensus to make such a change should first be gained at this page.
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certainly bear as much weight as ones that are recently proposed and have never existed other than on paper (and may or may not be built). Because of the size of the system they all fit well into the current template and support the subject of the article: the rail(road) system once called H&M and now named PATH. Additional templates introducing information not covered in the body of the text serve to distract rather than suppport what it is about.(Incidentally,
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847:. This is also a unique template in that it's a single map for what is actually five lines, which is not super common in this context. To go back to the first section of this talk page, I think there are exceptions to consensus that could be made here given two things: (1) that it's a template for an entire rail system, so it's bound to be somewhat busy, and (2) it's part of a vastly complicated Lower Manhattan transit network. There's
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573:, therefore for correctness and completeness all lines serving the later would then need to be included in the proposed diagram. That would only add more information & (IMO) necessary clutter, further distracting from what portends to be a PATH service line map/diagram. The proposed template has more information about OTHER than what should necessarily be the FOCUS, the PATH system itself.
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do not show old interurban stations that Amtrak trains never serviced. New ownership is not an artificial date; it is significant and concrete, and convention on these templates is that a "reset" of stations is warranted when a new service begins. The Port
Authority is not the same as H&M; that is what is being discussed here, not whether the two services share physical tracks.
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commuter railroad other than FRA oversight, which is purely bureaucratic. Regardless, every service diagram either of us has brought up follows the convention that only stations that still exist upon inauguration of a new service should be included in that service's diagram. This should be no exception.
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templates show stations which were closed prior to the inauguration of that service. It is true that it is the same physical railroad as the H&M, but it is a different operator, and the article is titled PATH, not H&M. This could be said of literally any railroad; this is why Amtrak line maps
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Regardless of how much the system changed following the takeover by PANYNJ, it still constitutes a new system. The extent of the change does not really play a role in this debate. And there is no consensus at all that PATH should be considered a commuter railroad. It exhibits no characteristics of a
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page place it west of the current WTC station, but as the Hudson
Terminal page states that when the WTC station was built, "each of the tubes swung outward using a large jughandle curve around the original Hudson Terminal approach tracks before approaching the World Trade Center platforms." The WTC
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Yes, Hudson
Terminal should remain, as it was a PATH station. Proposed stations are generally included in diagrams as well (especially in this case, where funding has been allocated). I think the most logical way to address the history is to have a separate routemap for the H&M. If you look at
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Hi all- I would like to propose removing some stations from the diagram, as they were not operational or even extant at the time PATH began operating as a service in 1962. I also propose creating a separate H&M Railroad template to preserve that information. While these stations (28th St, 19th
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would be included, leaving one now demolished station on a truncated line in the template, but not others or re-alignments. PATH did not begin operating in 1962; ownership of the H&M changed and it was, very simply, re-named. What would be the logical way to visually demonstrate the extensive
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To go back to the first section of this talk page, I think there are exceptions to consensus that could be made here given two things: (1) that it's a template for an entire rail system, so it's bound to be somewhat busy, and (2) it's part of a vastly complicated Lower
Manhattan transit network.
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city-wide, and later metro-region, agencies, the new owner/carriers. Would you choose '53 or '68 as the cut off? Are you prepared to take your proposal to a wider public? It would involve a huge amount of work since the aforementioned is one of many examples that would require a change so as to
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1962 is an artificial date. The rail system never seized operations. Its name was changed. The current template shows both contemporary stations and historical stations of that system. Keeping Hudson
Terminal, and not others is arbitrary. Historical stations, ones that actually existed should
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only shows stations that existed and saw service since the Pink Line began service in 2006. Stations closed before then are not included, while stations that were closed more recently remain on the map. Since PATH service dates back to 1962, stations which were closed before then ought not be
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station page also indicates that Hudson
Terminal was bound by Greenwich, Cortlandt, Church, and Fulton Streets. The current WTC station is located within this two square block area, so indicating that Hudson Terminal is east of the current station doesn't seem appropriate.
825:(there may an argument for that), and another service line map diagram might be appropirate. But elimination of historical stations before that time would diminish the completeness of the current PATH article, which is disservice to the reader & quality of Knowledge.
821:, but rather a redirect to PATH, that because the history of the H&M and of PATH is included in the PATH article. Since that history is in the PATH article, a diagram which shows the historical stations should be included in it. If there were a H&M
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2. Knowledge does treat PATH as mass transit system and I do not contest that. (But, FYI, FRA regulation has more influence that an administrative one. It effects safety, employees roles/requirements, physical relationships to other systems, plus,
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PANYNJ acquired the H&M in 1962. The WTC and its station were opened in 1971. Certainly, Hudson
Terminal was used as a PATH station, and remained in operation during construction of its replacement, which was "nearby" but re-aligned to the
1253:– This template contains stations that did not exist by the time PATH was inaugurated as a service. I propose this template be moved to H&M Railroad and a new template be created which shows only present and former PATH stations.
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1088:). The PATH re-naming of entire existing & complete H&M system is quite different from creation of new rail networks from the takeover, combination, & consolidation of bankrupt railroads by semi-public corporations.
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589:. While not in use, it was originally part of the PATH/PRR system, and would likely need be addressed as a historical connection to Penn Station for the sake of completeness and correctness.)
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clearly shows that former stations are included in line maps. There seems to a consensus and a standard to include such information. Deletion here would not follow that established practice.
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H&M/PATH is a railroad subject to federal standards. It generally functions and is perceived as a rapid-transit system, and is treated as such on
Knowledge. A cursory review of
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This deserves no special exception whatsoever. Various other rail and commuter rail lines list former stations, and they too were subject to ownership changes and name changes.
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reveals that indeed many older rapid transit systems (as opposed to relatively modern ones) have stations which have closed and are included in the templates (for example,
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4. A name change does not constitute a new rail system, despite the insistence that the services provided by the carrier have changed. They are distinct.
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All of those examples illustrate that inclusion is only warranted for station that existed at the time the current service existed. For example,
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1076:. As has been earlier mentioned/established here PATH is considered a mass-transit system (despite its FRA status) and therefore not part of
699:, Manhattan Transfer, and the Park Pl branch) certainly belong in a H&M template, I do not believe they belong in a PATH template, since
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that is include stations that closed before 1962? I don't think it would be inappropriate to have two line diagrams given the distinction.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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638:. It is not about the PATH/NJT/MTA rail network. And yes indeed, Lower Manhattan transit network is vastly complicated, and as seen in
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580:) connects the 7th Ave IRT/33rd Street (34th St/Herald Square) stations. Known as the Pennsylvania Passageway or Gimbels Passageway
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I believe your assessment that Hudson
Terminal was east of the current WTC station is incorrect. Not only do the coordinates on the
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The exisitng template is not so unique: it's a single map for five lines in one rail system, which the title clearly establishes:
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1. There is a clear distinction between a rail line and the services provided on it. Please do not continue to confuse them.
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PATH is not a commuter railroad and is not part of that category. It's a rapid transit system, which instead places it in
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348:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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And regarding your other concern that the WTC line "continues to separate stations," this is simply not true. The
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Following suggested logic and applying "consistency" to mass tranist systems would necessitate that
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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does not apply here at all, as it has to do with the text of of an article giving undue weight to
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Was actually just thinking about this recently given the recent edits, I support it.
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icon (and those like it) are used to show connections between two stations. The
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since that station was not in operation when the line was incorporated into the
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remain consistent. (Likley, the re-naming & re-structering of the
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Why not create an H&M routemap to embed in the history section of
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Chambers Street–World Trade Center/Park Place/Cortlandt Street station
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Sorry, but new templates seem like a solution looking for a problem.
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history covered in the article? What would be the logic to include
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, you can visit the
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but that was to point out that service is different from a line (
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do have current lines in which historical stations are shown.)
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
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Template-Class New York City public transportation articles
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NA-importance New York City public transportation articles
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stations to the PATH system. The WTC line terminates at
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and not others is incomplete and therefore, incorrect.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Are you talking about lines or services? None of the
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Category:Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority
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With regard to Hudson Terminal (am inserting here):
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1370:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1082:Category:United States commuter railroad templates
812:Category:United States commuter railroad templates
518:"Another Ghost from Ground Zero's Past Fades Away"
383:Incorrect additions/removals to line map diagram
1160:18th Street station (IRT Lexington Avenue Line)
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1078:Category:Amtrak railway line navigational boxes
189:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation
1086:Category:United States rapid transit templates
873:Category:United States rapid transit templates
845:Category:United States rapid transit templates
1273:Template talk:PATH line map#Station inclusion
8:
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1199:The following is a closed discussion of a
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338:This template is within the scope of
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1218:The result of the move request was:
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1032:Category:Chicago 'L' line templates
988:Category:Chicago 'L' line templates
881:Category:Chicago 'L' line templates
358:Knowledge:WikiProject New York City
161:Associated projects or task forces:
38:It is of interest to the following
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1164:Template:IRT Lexington Avenue Line
1162:for ::example, being removed from
1144:5. Your proposal is an exception:
1138:) so take note of the difference.)
953:proposed station (which whiffs of
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740:Oppose, considering a few points:
361:Template:WikiProject New York City
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753:"New PATH Station Opens Downtown"
751:Burks, Edward C. (July 7, 1971).
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473:"New PATH Station Opens Downtown"
471:Burks, Edward C. (July 7, 1971).
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186:This template is supported by
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1174:would require special review.
352:and see a list of open tasks.
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130:WikiProject Trains to do list
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606:Copied from section below:
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796:. www.columbia.edu
794:Abandoned Stations
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578:Hotel Pennsylvania
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