Knowledge (XXG)

User:SMcCandlish/Notability and Deletion policy

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559:. If that sounds weird, consider that we're already doing exactly that, just minus the "topical" part: what constitutes reliable for GNG purposes is narrower than that required for in-article sourcing, in that "multiple" and "in-depth" are added. So, it's not much of a stretch to add another layer; e.g. for academics, in-depth coverage need not be required, but frequent citation would be. For entertainment "figures", entertainment press would be unreliable 422:(formerly GNG, general notability guideline) now (multiple instances of non-trivial coverage in reliable sources) and that it consists of objective not subjective criteria. It has finally become clear to everyone that topical notability guidelines cannot trump the GNC and WP:N. That said, I think that the general understanding level of the average Wikipedian of policies, guidelines, essays and their interaction has actually gone 538:
some ways is worse – it is not better sourced, but it has more trivia. And this is one of the borderline cases. Innumerable articles on actors, bands/musicians, pornstars, writers, local politicians, executives, models, sportspeople, etc., etc., are flooding Knowledge (XXG) (along with non-bios on not-really-notable songs, albums, films, companies, etc.). It's a maintenance and quality-control nightmare.
335:, a nasty loophole!) and the larger collection of such guidelines and would-be guidelines that WP:DEL does not mention at all, are almost uniformly both largely exclusionary ("delete-me" guides) and highly subjectively prescriptive as to details, regardless of the PNC. Thus, the topical notability guidelines (many of which greatly predate WP:N) are mostly in 274:" statements in disguise, and yet others demand actions that defy piles of precedent, such as deleting school articles instead of merging them with school district ones. AfD chatter could probably be greatly reduced by use of standardized "broken argument" tags in lieu of re-re-re-explaining the same issues time and again in long-winded " 31: 67: 1104: 494:– it's rightly pointed out there that "this fails " is trumped any time the GNG is actually satisfied by the article, while an interpretation that something that clearly fails GNG but somehow passes an SNG is frequently rejected. The purpose of SNGs was to outline what is and is not, within that topic, 225:) of the articles successfully AfD'd probably did need to be either removed or improved drastically (and I nominate articles for deletion myself, and have lost an article to that process, without putting up a fight about it since the article did in fact have a lot of problems). But it ought to be for 524:
On the other hand, WP is just damned well drowning in bios of pseudo-celebrities. Virtually anyone who's ever appeared in more than one episode of any TV show or had a single in the pop or R&B charts can have an article here. We have thousands upon thousands of junk stubs that are never going to
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views don't make much sense to me. I can't even guess how many times I've see some person or place or thing or concept mentioned in an article, wanted to know more on that topic, and found that not only was there no wikilink on the term, there wasn't any article to point one at, and then later found
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on Knowledge (XXG). Grossly insufficient input like that is evidenciary simply of the fact that the article either has no active editors or that they are on wikibreak or something. This doesn't even start to get into a broader issue, that of deleting articles that should instead be fixed (e.g., by
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on Knowledge (XXG)'s part. In determining notability, it's entirely permissible, because that's an internal matter. We do exactly the same kind of permissible OR when we assess publisher and author reputability and thus source reliability, to begin with. Another example is how we decide article
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has some movie and TV credits in minor roles, and has been interviewed and had some fluff articles written about her in celeb and entertainment rags. Oh, and she did some charity work. I sent this to AfD, and it was kept as "no consensus". Years later, the page has not improved noticeably and in
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abuse. Notably (no pun intended) these improvements did not start happening until the Disputedpolicy tag attracted notice and drew more people into the debate. Suddenly WP:N could not be be micromanaged any longer, ongoing debates could not be swept under the rug, and the document was radically
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Let's be very clear: landing some acting jobs in TV shows and movies doesn't make someone actually notable in an encyclopedic sense; it just makes them competent in their profession. The only difference between these people and those who are really competent bartenders and cab drivers is that
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reason is given. And the initial proponent of the AfD can also proactively warn against misuse of NN (or other oft-abused deletion arguments), when creating the AfD. Additional templates could also be used to gently correct other abuses; most !voters using "speedy" don't seem to know what it
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about notability: level of influentialness (influentiality?) of the subject. The idea that frequent citation in journals proves an academic's notability could be extended: if numerous musicians, for example, cite another as an influence/inspiration, this is evidence of notability. This is
363:, and extreme deletionist whining in contravention of WP:N should be ignored with equally extreme prejudice by AfD-closing admins. I hope that this guideline-to-be can serve as a model for what to do with the rest of the subject-specific notability criteria, when it is better-developed. 545:; most of these publishers are owned by the same companies that own the movie studios, record labels, and TV networks; those of the former that are not house organs are still totally dependent on the latter – the vast majority of their income is from entertainment advertising dollars. 607:
power struggle that isn't going well (and in that form shouldn't). If there were instead a new site-wide consensus that GNG reform is necessary as proposed here, or in some other form – there's an idea to change GNG into GVG, the general verifiability guideline, and move it into
430:, I see a lot of really inane arguments in almost every non-trivial deletion debate, mostly gross misunderstandings of what a policy or guideline really says, or what it means in interaction with another. I think this is a strong sign that we have too much "legalese" and need to 75:
This is a historical document, a diary of sorts of my views on and involvement with the evolution of the "notability" concept on Knowledge (XXG) starting in 2006. I have edited it very little since then, other than some cleanup in late 2007. Every few years I add an update at the
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I had historically been very skeptical and vocally critical of "notabilty" concepts of various sorts in Knowledge (XXG), period, because of how poorly they were constructed, especially as to their level of personal-preference interpretability. What alarmed me about the
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into alleged guideline status, was subject to sudden archiving of still-active discussions, was dominated by a small handful of boosters of the then-current version of the document's language, and was otherwise simply not very reflective of Wikiculture at all.
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the addition of another reference or two to satisfy the PNC; NPOV edits to fix a bias problem; etc.) That's a different discussion for a different time, as is the case of punitive or simply careless deletions (e.g. the sometimes premature closing of an AfD as
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of times, but not be covered in-depth in multiple, independent, reliable sources (GNG). The only ones who are ones who do TV shows, popularized-science books, and other things that make them "celebrities", or those who unfortunately get embroiled in a public
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the frequency with which NN is misunderstood and [ab]used, often without any other rationale (and fervently but incorrectly believed to be Knowledge (XXG) Policy when it is actually just a guideline and related subject-specific guidelines), in the
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when there is a "consensus" of only a tiny handful of editors. I see this all the time, and have successfully returned articles to AfD via the Deletion Review process in a couple of egregious cases. Three !votes after a week that say
1329: 1284: 1369: 859: 498:. I.e., SNGs at present are a fortune-telling system that people have mistaken for a set of rules to enforce. This has proven to be pretty angsty, time-sucking, and impractical. While not actually addressing the problems. 347:, that does not have such a conflict. We'll see how that experiment goes. It relies (to the extent that it has been properly constructed so far) entirely on WP:N and long-standing policies/guidelines, and then gives some 359:; if editors of the player's article can satisfy WP:N's PNC, then the player is self-evidently notable. An almost silly example, since it is highly unlikely that any local league player could in fact satisfy the PNC, but 904: 1324: 339:
with WP:N. Wording twiddles have been made to WP:N to try to skirt this problem, but they are really simply hiding the issue rather than solving it (as of February 9, 2007; future edits may be more productive).
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It's nearly impossible to create an article here about an important and influential academic, unless by chance they're a charismatic publicity hound. A scientist may have their work cited literally
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of the kinks have been worked out of our notability system. We've come a long way from the "fame and importance" stuff of the 2000s proposals. (But ... see below.) I still think most of the
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the GNG. The motivation is well-meaning, but this approach is terrible and dangerous – it inspires others to try this with their pet topics, too, even when there's no similar justification.
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Another lingering problem is that WP:N is as much a guideline on what makes an article worth keeping as it is a deletion tool, but the subject-specific notability criteria enumerated at
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immediately after it has been merge-tagged, such that the merge is thwarted, and admin begging or Deletion Review has to be invoked to get at the salvageable content. Admins:
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Note, 8 December 2007: My views on this topic have changed radically in the last 18 months; as a result, this version is a substantial overhaul of the early-mid 2006 original.
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That's all I'll write about this for now, other than to suggest that the real future of the SNGs could be housing this kind of material, with their gist summarized at
136:("not notable") meme, aside from the fact that it did not actually represent the consensus its proponents claimed until its vast improvements in late 2006 onward, was 1344: 1049: 218:, blissfully unaware that the PNC exists at all, much less that it has replaced the old "famousness", "popularity", and "importance" kinds of notability concepts. 1429: 1269: 1214: 1099: 849: 1517: 1359: 1079: 1044: 769: 1568: 1004: 1194: 1314: 1179: 479: 1138: 1094: 809: 533:
entry has way more and better info on these people, whiile being a huge database of minor entertainers is not Knowledge (XXG)'s job. Someone like, say,
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there's a cult-of-personality-and-scandal marketplace surrounding people connected with the entertainment industry. The coverage they get is not really
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half of these documents, because they are ultimately causing more trouble than they solve and are very clearly turning Knowledge (XXG) into precisely
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in AfD remain, largely stemming from the imprecise, subjective and radically changing nature of the "notability" concept in Knowledge (XXG) from
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Invalid "me too, but I don't really understand policy at all" !votes are not the only AfD issue. A serious one is admins closing debates as
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are also in part basically variants of notability guidelines in certain ways, and their interplay needs to be factored in and smoothed out.
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It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Knowledge (XXG) contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of
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on highly suspect "non-notable" grounds, often with a so-called consensus of 2–5 editors. The situation is improving
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AfD on WP:N, WP:V, etc. grounds. I.e., the fact that it says that local tournament players are not likely to be notable
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in AfD, to change this: Tag them with a warning that they will not be counted as anything but neutral comments (however "
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interesting and unusual from WP's typical viewpoint, because in both kinds of cases this is a new kind of verification:
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One idea I've been mulling is to augment the GNG with topically specific definitions of what "reliable sourcing" means
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Knowledge (XXG)'s capacity to catalogue everything we collectively know is effectively unlimited, so the more extreme
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We clearly do still have at least two problems. Over the last several years, these things have become very clear:
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User:Vanished user 909146283013/Follow the WP:EPISODE guideline and make AfD easier for articles that don't
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However, despite December 2006 - February 2007 improvements in the guideline's wording, scope, intent and
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Reviewing this old essay in January 2010, I find that a lot has changed, especially the development of
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across the entire system, surely as the result of so many good editors and admins leaving. Despite
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There are also other loose ends. For example, there is also a content guideline against use of
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User:MichaelQSchmidt/The general notability guide versus subject-specific notability guidelines
603:. Maybe the "rebellion" of a couple of these pages against the GNG is presently mistargted, a 427: 391: 182: 949: 621: 441: 17: 1160:
User:ASCIIn2Bme/Verifiability and plagiarism are the hammer and anvil of astute wikilawyers
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about that, but at least some improvement has happened since I first wrote this in 2006.
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Assume the assumption of the assumption of the assumption of the assumption of bad faith
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User:Aspening/Just because something is unflattering doesn't mean it should be deleted
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User:HowardBGolden/Abuse of the General Notability Guideline in Deletion Discussions
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User:HowardBGolden/Abuse of the General Notability Guideline in Deletion Discussions
54:. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints. 249:, perhaps with some inline warning templates for use in response to malformed "NN" 173:
and my unwavering arguments with regard to its flaws and problems at that time, in
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User:ViperSnake151/Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion (Human Readable Version)
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category page has many more, listed below the subcategories section on the pages.
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is now a key guideline, and everyone seems to understand well what is called the
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02:25, 17 December 2017 (UTC); revised a little at 22:23, 7 January 2018 (UTC).
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actually means in the Deletion Policy context, and many also make highly PoV "
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Through a lot of stress and just dogged insistence, my flagging of WP:N as a
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Knowledge (XXG):Don't assume lasting significance for instances of self-harm
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overhauled very quickly. I think a major lesson can be learned from this.
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User:Geo Swan/Evaluating notability for lesser prizes and awards
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User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters/Academic and artistic biographies
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User:NawlinWiki/List of things that will get speedily deleted
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User:Mike Cline/The Inclusionist's Guide To Deletion Debates
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User:PorkchopGMX/Popularity doesn’t always equal notability
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User:MalwareSmarts/Don't confuse non-notability with a hoax
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User:Hijiri88/Don't call yourself or others "inclusionists"
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User:SMcCandlish/Discretionary sanctions 2013–2018 review
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to editors about what sorts of articles are and are not
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way toward being objective, clear and far less prone to
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User:Davidwr/No topic deserves to be in Knowledge (XXG)
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a subject-specific notability guideline, for cue sports
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reasons! There are some useful essays out there about
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cannot be used as an AfD argument in favor of deletion
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User:League Octopus/Club notability tables (and test)
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User:Davidwr/Choosing SPEEDY, PROD, or AFD deletion
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User:This is Paul/Articles concerning criminal acts
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They're worthless dreck; the average 1430:User:RoySmith/essays/Presumption of Notability 1270:User:Robert McClenon/Acceptance of Biographies 1215:User:The Bushranger/Lob a grenade and run away 1100:User:Ultraexactzz/Time-delayed Speedy Deletion 850:User:Eire2020/WP:On the subject of deletionism 820:User:The Bushranger/Don't move articles at AfD 1360:User:ArsenalFan700/Indian Football Notability 1080:User:Tisane/Allow viewing of deleted articles 1045:User:SoWhy/Before tagging for speedy deletion 770:User:Mangojuice/Administrators are not slaves 656: 8: 1005:User:Ritchie333/Plain and simple guide to A7 516:are trying to hold it out as something that 394:(back then it was just a userspace essay by 1315:User:Lagrange613/Coverage is not notability 1180:User:Beeblebrox/The perfect policy proposal 317:Look at articles again before deleting them 1493: 1415:User:Herostratus/"Notable people" sections 1243: 1133: 1095:User:Ultraexactzz/Sorting Deletion Debates 810:User:Bibliomaniac15/A guide to closing CFD 753: 683: 663: 649: 641: 1395:User:Brainy J/No Exceptions to Notability 1380:User:Robert McClenon/Internet celebrities 1350:User:AliveFreeHappy/Notability (firearms) 462:2017 update – we still have some problems 361:if it happens then it does in fact happen 1365:User:Phil Sandifer/History of notability 740:User:Steve Smith/Semi-protection of BLPs 572:the original "fame and importance" ideas 414:I've seen a lot of further improvement. 399: 48:Knowledge (XXG)'s policies or guidelines 1569:Knowledge (XXG) essays about notability 1465:User:ReaderofthePack/YouTube notability 1280:User:Masem/Alternate Take on Notability 1275:User:Alex Noble/AFC is about notability 1085:User:Tisane/Don't delete users' résumés 1030:User:Simon Dodd/Some AFD considerations 237:, but they simply don't go far enough. 216:are still using them in AfD as we speak 208:multiple, independent, reliable sources 1445:User:Esquivalience/Essay on notability 1290:User:ReaderofthePack/Author notability 1065:User:Syrenka V/Protection not deletion 955:User:Mike Cline/Archimedes was deleted 925:User:K50 Dude/Essay on Speedy Deletion 920:User:Jh12/School articles and deletion 616:itself would make the page unwieldy. 512:This problem is why the proponents of 480:subject-specific notability guidelines 1410:User:Glades12/Notability is temporary 1055:User:Spartaz/Rescuing Deleted Content 980:User:Northamerica1000/Eager to delete 7: 1480:User:voorts/The spectrum of coverage 1060:User:Stifle/Delete unless cleaned up 1120:User:Yunshui/Deletion for beginners 715:User:Kirill Lokshin/Professionalism 247:concerted editor education campaign 155:when I arrived, had been blatantly 1455:User:Fleets/sandboxWPRL notability 1170:User:GTBacchus/A recurring problem 915:User:Isomorphic/Essays/Deletionism 845:User:Davidwr/Deleting GA+ articles 566:This would effectively import the 52:thoroughly vetted by the community 24: 1340:User:Basket of Puppies/Editorials 1295:User:Gryllida/BiographyNotability 1139:User essays on dispute resolution 1110:User:Vermont/essay/AfD Filibuster 945:User:Martijn Hoekstra/what is AfD 935:User:Lenticel/Deletion isn't Evil 930:User:KGirlTrucker81/What G1 isn't 730:User:Mattinbgn/BLP considerations 1440:User:RoySmith/Three best sources 1305:User:Northamerica1000/Churnalism 1150:User:AGK/Arbitration and content 1020:User:RoySmith/Three best sources 975:User:NeoFreak/Essays/Deletionism 835:User:Northamerica1000/Churnalism 705:User:Doc glasgow/The BLP problem 374:notability guideline of sorts. 65: 29: 1190:User:Guy Macon/One against many 1070:User:Terrariola/Delete the junk 1035:User:Seraphimblade/Deletion FAQ 880:User:Ginkgo100/Speedy deletions 830:User:Champion/Deletion is cheap 815:User:Buddy431/AFD isn't cleanup 583:articles, since it's a form of 474:the GNG. 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It could not be used 268:I've never heard of this 231:the nature of notability 73:This page in a nutshell: 1559:User essays on deletion 759:User essays on deletion 735:User:SirFozzie/BLP-Lock 557:for notability purposes 488:could be given new life 484:as they stand right now 198:, problems with WP:N's 151:(WP:N) was very nearly 594:article title criteria 496:likely to pass the GNG 235:what not to say in AfD 297:Strong, speedy delete 190:Yet AfD abuse remains 115:one, but that it got 50:, as it has not been 780:User:Angela/Deletion 588:titles: determining 551:What's the solution? 400:#A proposed solution 127:Cleaning up the mess 1460:User:Moray An Par/b 466:The GNC is now the 241:A proposed solution 689:User essays on BLP 1546: 1545: 1531: 1530: 1488: 1487: 1238: 1237: 1128: 1127: 748: 747: 605:WP:LOCALCONSENSUS 585:original research 456: 353:likely to survive 98: 80: 79: 60: 59: 1576: 1494: 1244: 1134: 950:User:MBisanz/AfD 754: 684: 677: 665: 658: 651: 642: 637: 610:WP:Verifiability 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595: 591: 590:WP:COMMONNAME 586: 580: 578: 573: 570:good part of 567: 564: 560: 556: 546: 544: 536: 532: 528: 523: 521: 517: 515: 506: 504: 503: 502: 499: 495: 493: 489: 483: 481: 475: 471: 469: 461: 459: 454: 448: 444: 443: 437: 433: 429: 423: 421: 417: 409: 407: 405: 401: 397: 393: 385: 383: 381: 377: 373: 370:, which is a 369: 364: 362: 358: 354: 350: 346: 341: 338: 334: 330: 322: 320: 318: 314: 309: 308: 302: 298: 294: 289: 281: 279: 277: 273: 269: 264: 260: 256: 252: 248: 240: 238: 236: 232: 228: 224: 219: 217: 213: 209: 205: 201: 197: 196:raison d'etre 189: 187: 184: 180: 176: 169: 161: 158: 154: 150: 146: 144: 139: 135: 126: 124: 122: 118: 114: 109: 108:"deletionist" 105: 97: 93: 92: 91: 90: 89: 85: 74: 71: 64: 63: 53: 49: 43: 41: 35: 28: 27: 19: 984: 622: 618: 598: 576: 565: 554: 539: 511: 510:controversy. 500: 465: 440: 413: 403: 389: 371: 365: 360: 356: 352: 348: 342: 336: 326: 316: 312: 304: 296: 295:", or even " 292: 287: 285: 275: 262: 258: 254: 246: 244: 226: 222: 220: 215: 211: 207: 199: 195: 193: 178: 171:}} 165:{{ 162: 147: 137: 130: 120: 112: 101: 95: 82: 81: 72: 37: 1564:User essays 1539:User essays 672:User essays 623:SMcCandlish 543:independent 535:Chipo Chung 531:Discogs.com 442:SMcCandlish 410:2012 update 396:User:Daduzi 386:2010 update 200:application 38:This is an 1553:Categories 1537:Note: The 563:purposes. 518:supersedes 368:neologisms 319:, please. 263:actionable 183:subjective 157:editwarred 84:Notability 507:thousands 307:consensus 278:" posts. 204:2004-2006 453:Contribs 372:de facto 251:"!votes" 121:a little 113:had been 482:(SNGs) 428:WP:AADD 392:WP:AADD 276:Comment 153:"owned" 76:bottom. 674:  636:ⱷ< 632:>ⱷ҅ 492:WP:GNG 468:WP:GNG 432:WP:MFD 380:WP:NFT 376:WP:NOT 333:Policy 329:WP:DEL 313:delete 293:Delete 288:delete 259:Speedy 257:" or " 255:Strong 449:ʕ(ل)ˀ 447:Talk⇒ 227:valid 210:(the 117:AfD'd 40:essay 16:< 568:only 527:IMDb 476:most 438:. — 424:down 416:WP:N 378:and 233:and 179:long 106:and 86:and 676:(?) 529:or 143:AfD 1555:: 620:— 581:in 404:do 134:NN 664:e 657:t 650:v 634:ᴥ 630:¢ 627:☏ 455:. 291:" 42:.

Index

User:SMcCandlish
essay
Knowledge (XXG)'s policies or guidelines
thoroughly vetted by the community
Notability
Deletion policy
"exclusivist"/"exclusionist"
"deletionist"
AfD'd
NN
AfD
Knowledge (XXG):Notability
"owned"
editwarred
Disputedpolicy
Knowledge (XXG) talk:Notability
subjective
2004-2006
the nature of notability
what not to say in AfD
"!votes"
I've never heard of this
I don't like it
candiate for speedy deletion
consensus
WP:DEL
Policy
a subject-specific notability guideline, for cue sports
neologisms
WP:NOT

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