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the article itself, such as the fact that I phoned both MIT and emailed Noam
Chomsky himself, both sources told me directly that Robert Bringhurst spent one freshman year in general studies and did not study linguistics (which at that time was only offered to graduate students at MIT). But I'm not sure how to reference this. Any suggestions are welcome. Similarly, it was individuals at the IJAL itself who told me, on the phone, that they received a letter from Bringhurst (or perhaps his lawyer--that I'm not sure of), threatening to sue the journal, its board and its authors if the journal didn't publish a public retraction. Three of the individuals involved expressed great anger at their feeling of being muzzled and coerced into the retraction, but I would not think of adding that to this entry, because (a) it's difficult to cite as "fact" and (b) it would risk turning this section into a "he-said-he-said" bunfight rather than a useful discussion. However, I must say that I am occasionally following this wiki entries in good faith--my role in and knowledge of this situation came from journalistic research of the subject rather than as a rival linguist; I feel very strongly that my Globe and Mail article took care to present all dissenting viewpoints--it was not an editorial or criticism on my part; it was reportage. Enrico's non-literary, scientific translations were pointed out as a different kind of translation--"apples and oranges" is one quote that figured in the article. in fact, I even took the extra and unusual step of going over with Bringhurst on the telephone every quote from him to use, reciting the context to him, and allowing him to clarify his wording when applicable so that he could feel his points and defense of this detractors were properly and completely conveyed in the article. That's a NPOV. (As indicated in this article, all sides have very valid points in what they're doing and why they're unhappy about things.) I do not think it's a NPOV to editorialize in such a way that minimizes or dismisses the detractors. That said, I realize it's hard for either you or me to know for sure if we are being "objective". I've been open about how I became acquainted with this issue; I'm curious how you came to it or whether you know any of the principals involved. I'm quite open to continuing a lively conversation and however it might seem, I do want to adhere better to Wiki protocol (I'll work on that. I see the problem with "citing oneself" and I'll learn the protocol before I do that again, but I believe you know i'm not trying to hide anything, since my user name is so close to my real name.). And please take my word that I, like you I presume--would like to maintain cordial respectfulness, open-mindedness and humility with the aim of presenting a balanced, information text on a complex and highly charged issue. Cheers, --Adele
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threat, I would still believe their published reasons for retraction. It's a bit absurd to think the
University of Chicago would bow to unfounded legal threats from a grant-funded Canadian academic. All, of course, speculation and hearsay until there's a published source to point to. Similarly, with his education, I'll go with published bios over unverifiable statements of fact. Even if he has no formal training in linguistics, he has since been recognized for outstanding contributions in the field of linguistics (see the Sapir Prize info). Although he says in your article he's never called himself a linguist, that hasn't stopped the academic linguistic community from labelling him as one.
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question that might be beneficial all around: if the Globe and Mail article was, as the contributor
Rawlangs argues, basically refuted, discounted and deemed irrelevent because it reports just a minority of complainants and its fact-checking is not presumed---then why bother citing it at all in the Knowledge (XXG) article? If it's not a valid, viable and factual text, then why cite it in Knowledge (XXG)? Why do we not simply remove mention of it? -AmwederAdele Weder 04:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
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overwhelmingly positive reactions in the rest of the press at the time. I'm not saying this was a bad thing, merely that NPOV on wikipedia means that the majority's voice and opinions get primary attention, and minority opinion gets less (or none at all in some cases). The printed discourse moved on after your article. Enrico's web page was taken down, Leer's review was retracted, and
Bringhurst wrote two more positively reviewed volumes in the
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anonymous flaming was removed, the Leer review was retracted, and the Globe allowed
Bringhurst to respond to your article. That is the extent of original, published, negative criticism I've been able to find. I believe both the criticisms and the responses to those criticisms are described accurately in a way already compliant with WP:NPOV and specifically
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please believe that I can be swayed by weight of evidence. I've reviewed everything I can get my hands on regarding this topic, and I haven't suppressed any sources or views. I feel strongly that the article as it stands accurately reflects the facts of the controversy, and that both sides are represented in accordance with
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Amweder, the point I'm making is that if the fact wasn't published, then it's simply not verifiable and has no place on wikipedia. If you culled the information from your article, and it hasn't been published elsewhere, it's off the table. Frankly, even if the IJAL retracted Leer's review under legal
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Point taken, Rawlangs, I do need to find the time to learn more about proper protocol and citations regulations. And definitely I know that writing an article doesn't give me a "free pass" but there were certain facts culled for the research into this article that were not neccessarily published in
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It is not editorializing to cite published material. To editorialize is to comment or opine, and my opinions are not what minimized or dismissed
Bringhurst's detractors. Nowhere in the article (that I'm aware of) do I make a unbacked claims. I let unchallenged, published facts stand, and I include
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Objectivity is impossible. Everyone has a bias. I can tell that you aren't particularly happy with what
Bringhurst did, which I have no issue with. I believe that he's done more good than harm in this field. I like the trilogy. I like his poetry. I've met the man, I like him too. That being said,
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translation, a fact already reflected in the bibliography) was overwhelmingly positive, and what play opposing viewpoints got in the press was convincingly, and repeatedly rebuffed in academic sources. I present the opposing viewpoints, but also the negative reaction to those viewpoints. Enrico's
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Hi, as noted previously, I really do not have the time (i have a full-time job plus family responsibilities) at this moment to learn all the ins-and-outs of WIkipedia protocol and correct the inaccuracies and potentially defamatory statements as they pertain to my cited article, but may I pose a
95:. I reverted your edits in compliance with this policy. Specifically: "Contentious material about living persons ... that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."
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Hey, you're on yours now. You can get to mine by clicking the "talk" link next to my signature. To access an article's talk page, click the talk tab at the top of the article. You can create a new section on that page once you're there by clicking the "new section" tab. You can also sign talk
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As to your article, I can't agree that it was written from a NPOV, at least not the way
Knowledge (XXG) defines it. You wrote it to give voice to a minority group's criticisms, which is an important function of any newspaper. To do so, you gave far more weight to those criticisms than to the
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TL;DR: Information presented in biographies of living persons must be verifiable or removed immediately. Knowledge (XXG) reflects verifiable facts, not personal beliefs and opinions (no matter how closely held). Knowledge (XXG) discourages you from citing yourself. Knowledge (XXG) describes
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I'm trying to assume good faith, but you can't add potentially libelous material (like the claims about threatened lawsuits, claims about his education, claims he can't translate Haida) without sourcing it. This is non-negotiable. All edits to a biography of living persons article
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relevant challenges to published material where I could find them. The weight of published material is pro-Bringhurst, and facts don't violate NPOV. Quite frankly, the only editorializing I see here is yours. I would strongly suggest you read
Nicholas R Bradley's article
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Further, it's misleading to rewrite the article but leave the citations in place as you did. For instance, you can't say that
Bringhurst was "threatening to sue Leer, the journal, and all the board members of the
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As for the current treatment of detracting viewpoints in the article, I believe it follows WP:NPOV already. The reactions to Bringhurst's translations (and by the way, the majority calls everything after
28:! I appreciate the new sources, but I have rewritten the Haida controversy section since you posted. I've kept most of what you said, but I edited the text and added references in order to comply with
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conflicts, but does not engage in them. Consequently, if one viewpoint is more commonly believed than another, the more commonly believed view gets more attention on wikipedia.
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Just because you wrote an article on the subject does not mean everything you add to the wiki article gets a free pass. You're walking pretty close to the line on
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submissions using the signature button at the top of the text field (the picture of the pen) or by typing four tildes in a row. Welcome to Knowledge (XXG)! --
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with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. He's not exceptionally pro-Bringhurst, but he is uncomfortable with the extent of criticisms levelled at him in 1999.
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Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at
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trilogy. These claims can be cited, and reflect negatively on the detracting evidence.
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Hi, I'm not quite sure how to get into the talk page...or am I on it now? CHeers, --AW
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