User talk:Caeciliusinhorto/Archive 1

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help to have more headings and subheadings, and to keep the content under each heading “on topic”. The article begins with a rich load of detail coming like shotgun blasts from a few directions: the date of publication, the name of the discoverer, a mention of Oxford, and so on. I think the reader might want to say: Wait, hold on, slow down. The “lead” should be more like a headline — a couple of sentences, with few details — only those that serve the lead’s purpose. The details of the first two paragraphs could be absorbed into what follows the lead. The reader should be seen as someone who doesn’t know much about all this at all, doesn’t know Sappho, and thinks that “archaic” is a put-down (and could use a little definition). I’d suggest a lead could be something like: “The Brother’s Poem is a poem written by Sappho, a poet of ancient Greece, known for her vivid and evocative writings on human nature, on love, and sexuality; and whose work preceded and greatly inspired authors of the classical period. That the Brother’s Poem is extant after more than 27 centuries, and was only very recently found, makes it a remarkable and rare instance of survival and discovery, especially in light of the fact that most of Sappho’s poetry has been lost to modern readers. The Brother’s Poem is concerned with the safe return of Sappho’s brother from an ocean voyage.” Then the article begins. Also, I think the reader wants the “goods” — the poem itself — and misses them when they are not there. The poem doesn’t need to be fully quoted from a modern translation, but it’s short enough to be paraphrased. Or it could be made up with short quotes combined with paraphrases, and in a section of it’s own. It could start: This poem begins with Sappho speaking to another, and saying that the other “keeps telling everyone” that Kharaxos’ boat always arrives fully-loaded. (etc) Regarding the “story of the discovery”, which a reader would be eager to pounce on, is scattered in bits and pieces. And it’s not obvious where to find it. I think the reader would love to have it told in a unified way in its own section that might subsume the section that’s there now headed "preservation". It might be good to include the original Greek version in the article, even for non-Greek readers, to get a sense of it. Best,

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currently doesn't seem hugely relevant, as Cha-U-Kao isn't mentioned in the article – indeed, the only mention of French lesbianism in that section at all is "For instance, there was probably a lesbian subculture amongst dancers and prostitutes in eighteenth and early-nineteenth century Paris". If you want to revert me and add in a better caption for the image explaining its relevance I will leave it there, but it would be even better if you could add some relevant text to the article as well (alternatively, if you know of any good sources for French lesbianism in the period, I'm happy to have a look at those and see what can be added to the article text.)

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your paragraph and he won’t charge you a penny. I’m not saying that Dioscorides, and Antipater of Sidon are anything to sneeze at, but … you get my point. So okay, I confess! I was the one that stuck the Plato non sequitur in there, thinking you could figure out what to do with it. You coulda just hit the paragraph button and given him a paragraph all to his own. Voila! Problem solved! Actually … don’t. Ignore all of the above, and do what you want. You’re doing a great job with the article, and I enjoy following your edits, I hope you don’t mind. And I’ll keep my two cents to myself from now on. So there. Yours truly,

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I don't think so. The story in this article is astounding, and it’s so good that it’s getting such great attention from you. There is one edit I’d be tempted to make: The lead section ends with “three epigrams attributed to her are preserved, but these are in fact Hellenistic imitations.”, but I think it should instead end with something like: “three epigrams attributed to her are preserved, but these epigrams are in fact not by Sappho, but are later Hellenistic imitations of her”. I don’t know. I have to think about it.

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during this month for your region or wherever please sign up in the participants section. The articles done may also count towards the ongoing challenge. If you're not interested in prize money yourself but are willing to participate and raise money to buy books about women for others to use, this is also fine. Help would also be appreciated in drawing up the lists of missing articles. If you think of any missing articles please add them to the sub lists by continent at

4587: 4018: 2424: 1367: 4805:" since that was the first article I ever worked on that I tried to bring up to GA status and, at the time I was writing it, I did not know how writing articles on Knowledge (XXG) worked. Most of the citations in that article I just copied from other articles here on Knowledge (XXG), thinking that was acceptable. If figured that, if they were good enough to support similar statements in other articles, then they were good enough for the article " 4402: 31: 5033: 3976: 134: 470: 4201: 3787: 1628: 1218: 5093: 4987: 3930: 3743: 3662: 2716: 2338: 1867: 526: 3446: 3212: 2134: 820: 570: 2676: 3402: 1983: 1808: 1074: 762: 682: 174: 5156: 4936: 4474: 3879: 2943: 2861: 2287: 2074: 1720: 432: 277: 3055:

can be confusing, but hopefully that will eventually become clearer to me. I'll come back to Corinna at some point and try to organize my contribution better. Actually I've been more interested in Greek poetry than history, but I'm currently reviewing Greek history and find that revising some of the articles helps me to retain the material.

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but will be more tools towards increasing bulk output in overall goal. It's a permanent goal now, and open! I would be grateful if you could keep a record of all your articles you do there, as I really think seeing the combined efforts will encourage others to create more content too! Please spread the word to the others, cheers!♦

4126:. Kadane has kindly offered to create a bot that will ping editors on the volunteers list with unanswered reviews in their chosen subject areas every so often. You can choose the time interval by changing the "contact" parameter. Options are "never", "monthly", "quarterly", "halfyearly", and "annually". For example: 2514:; the line is also mentioned by Ellen Greene in "Sappho, Foucault, and Women's Erotics". Perhaps the answer is to try to work up another paragraph on Sappho's influence on ancient conceptions of love, but apart from that Plato quote I don't think that I have any material off-hand that fits in it. Any ideas? 4809:." Obviously that is not acceptable and I was foolish for thinking that it was, but I mostly worked on that article while I was in my junior year of high school and I just did not know any better. Now that I am a sophomore in college, I know better than to do stupid and lazy things like that. The articles " 3015:

I agree with your criticism of my Corinna change -- I intended to keep rewriting it to make it more coherent but stopped at an intermediate stage. I sometimes get all bollixed up with using the editor if I have to make a lot of changes at once so I do it in stages. Apparently there is no way to save

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Thanks, Caeciliusinhorto, for the thoughtful response. I may not just now have any ideas about what to do with Plato, just non sequiturs. But if I come up with something I will let you know. It means a lot that Plato mentioned her, though would it've killed him to give us little more than he did?

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Thanks for your reply. I meant to mention that another reason I abandoned that edit in mid stream was that the editor stopped responding in the middle of things -- I couldn't move the cursor around, though I was definitely in edit mode. I also find trying to manage citations in the editing process

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I was actually going to put a message on your talkpage, but got distracted, so thanks for reminding me. If you are doing complex edits, especially ones which will take multiple commits to finish, it is best to give descriptive edit summaries so other users can tell what you are trying to do. As it

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for your consideration, but nothing that is an impediment to the promotion of this excellent article. I see from your GA nomination note that you return from foreign parts tomorrow: on the assumption that you may want a few days before returning to the article, I'll look in next week unless you ping

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Okay, I see now that it does discuss Sappho. Given that its only mention of Sappho is to say that she was a lesbian, which a) has historically been a major question in studies of Sappho, and consequently there are an abundance of works by actual specialists addressing the question, b) given that it

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Hello. I've revamped the contest page into this, based on the new British model. Long term goal, but I've added entries since the beginning of July to give it some initial life. Please add anything you've done then this then too! I hope it proves productive long term. The contests are still planned,

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is being held to try to produce new articles for as many countries worldwide and occupations as possible. There will be over $ 4000 in prizes to win, including Amazon vouchers and paid subscriptions. If this would appeal to you and you think you'd be interested in contributing new articles on women

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We plan to do some advertising of peer review, to let editors know about it and how to volunteer to help, at a couple of different venues (Signpost, Village pump, Teahouse etc.) - but have been waiting until we get this bot + WikiProject set up so we have a way to help interested editors make more

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I’ve enjoyed reading the Brother’s Poem article. It is well written sentence-by-sentence, and it contains a wealth of ideas and information. I do have a few comments, for whatever they may be worth. I feel that the organization and arrangement of the content needs be considered, perhaps it might

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ah, sorry about that. I couldn't work out what the relevance of the picture was, and misread when it had been added so I didn't realise that you might still be working on it. I agree with you that the article could do with some more images, especially in the later sections. That particular image

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Even though I have mostly left Knowledge (XXG) and I am no longer writing articles, I still pop over here now and then to see what is going on. I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate and admire all the excellent work you have done and continue to do for Knowledge (XXG). Your articles

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It's good to have an active peer review process. This is often the way that we help new or developing editors understand our ways, and improve the quality of their editing - so it fills an important and necessary gap between the teahouse (kindly introduction to our Wikiways) and GA and FA reviews

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Hello to all! I do not intend to write a regular peer review newsletter but there does occasionally come a time when those interested in contributing to peer review should be contacted, and now is one. I've mailed this out to everyone on the peer review volunteers list, and some editors that have

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Okay, Caeciliusinhorto, if that’s your real name, so the reference to Plato has nothing to do with the development of the story of Sappho-as-what-ever-you-said, but the section is, after all, titled “ancient reputation”, and Plato is “celebrity casting”, and he’s willing to add some star power to

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I don't think we need a WikiProject with a giant bureaucracy nor all sorts of whiz-bang features. However over the last few years I've found there are times when it would have been useful to have a list of editors that would like to contribute to discussions about the peer review process (e.g.

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thanks for this! I don't have time to do your commentary justice right this moment, but I think you are definitely right that the organisation of the lead bears consideration. I shall hopefully have time to look in detail at your comments tonight; if not I shall get to them later in the week.

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I absolutely agree that Plato has name-recognition amongst non-classicists that makes him a valuable person to reference in discussions on the ancient reception of Sappho (and, indeed, pretty much anything else in ancient Greece). However, he doesn't quite seem to fit where you put him, and I

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I bet that's my wording; I have a bad habit of writing excessively compressed sentences. I'm sure it could be improved. Something like "though three epigrams attributed to Sappho are preserved, they are later Hellenistic imitations of her style rather than authentic poems by her", perhaps?

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I share the love of Ancient Greece, and saw your request in the guild. You might want to mention more about the prostitutes being musicians. Also, Sheramy D. Bundrick's "Music and Image in Classical Athens" has a very interesting chapter on women appearing as musicians on vases for a time.

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is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

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Oh, well if you are around the poetry articles I'll definitely be seeing you around; I watch pretty much all the articles on Greek women poets, and many of the ones on archaic lyric poets. Citations are one of those things which you'll eventually learn, but so long as you are adding

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is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

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The problem with Academia is that it contains all kinds of stuff. The citation was incomplete--nothing but a bare URL--and so it could have been anything that someone uploaded. If that citation had included publication information I would not have used that rationale. Thank you,

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is going. I don't use the visual editor, so I can't help you with that; I just write everything in wiki-markup in a text editor and then move it over to the wiki when I am happy with it, but I appreciate that this is not so easy to do if you don't read markup languages pretty

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Hello Caeciliusinhorto, I just wanted to give you a "heads up" that I suggested an edit on the talk page of the Sappho article. My suggestion may be factually accurate, but if you could check it (if you feel like it and have a moment) I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

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Thank you for your message! I haven't finished yet - there's quite a lot more to add, but it's a start! I was actually editing (but failed to tag appropriately) as part of the WCC project on improving representation of Women Classical Scholars (project here:

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is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

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Oh, this is right in my wheelhouse. I know David's writings, but I had never realised how interesting a life she had before she became a cookery writer. Any more of this sort of thing that you are looking for another set of eyes on, do ask.

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pending further discussion on the article's talk page. I think there's enough noteworthy material to be worth at least a merger onto another page, if not permanently saving the existing article. Your suggestions or comments are welcome at

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We can at this stage only use the broad peer review section titles to guide what reviews you'd like, but that's better than nothing! You can also set an interest in multiple separate subject areas that will be updated at different times.

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predates Wilamowitz, is essentially irrelevant to modern scholarship on the issue, and c) modern scholarship is increasingly tending towards "this is the Wrong Question", I don't see that the article is missing anything by not citing it.

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that I was working on. Well, since then, I've put in a lot of work into it and am currently nominating it at FAC. I was wondering if you would be willing to look over the article as it is and maybe leave some comments on the

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instructions, layout, automation, simplification etc.). Also, it can get kind of lonely on the talk page as I am (correct me if I'm wrong) the only regular contributor, with most editors moving on after 6 - 12 months.

3598:) and it's been hanging in limbo there for while. I was wondering if you could maybe leave a comment or two? Your suggestions and critiques in the past have been so very, very helpful, and I'd greatly appreciate it!-- 4241: 3827: 1668: 371:. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose 4225:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 3811:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 1652:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 1749: 4594: 4025: 3040:; I mostly work on archaic articles at the moment. Hope you stick around, though, and if you ever need any help with the obscurities of wikipedia editing, do feel free to drop me a message here. 2445: 2440: 1437: 1393: 782: 4790:

I am still writing obsessively, but I am no longer writing on Knowledge (XXG) nearly as much as I used to. Nowadays I mostly write answers on Quora and articles on my personal website. Here is

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Thinking about copyediting this one, but it's easier for me if there are no unresolved issues when I start. Are you basically happy or basically unhappy with the nominator's responses? - Dank (

608: 4825:" were the first ones I wrote that I actually did in the proper way by actually finding all my own sources. The articles I worked on closer to the end of my time on Knowledge (XXG), such as " 3036:

All of that aside, it's always nice to see another editor who focuses on ancient Greece; there aren't very many of us. Your area of interest looks to be a little more recent than mine, from

1030: 1322:: I did in fact find the article via the FAC page, and thought I'd give it a quick look over. If I have time soon I'll try to write up a little bit of more substantive commentary for you... 1115:

I see I'm beating the irritatingly cheerful bot to it: these congratulations come from a real person. I'd like a little advice, please. I have to list the new GA in the appropriate part of

4076:(specific standards uphelp according to a set of quality criteria). And we should try and improve this process where possible (automate, simplify) so it can be used and maintained easily. 2498:

I don't mind at all, and I certainly don't want you to keep your two cents to yourself! Though I am by far the most active editor on the various articles on Sappho and her works, I don't

4798:. As I said, I still log on to Knowledge (XXG) every so often to see what is going on and occasionally make minor edits and changes. I am more active than you were while you were gone. 1512: 3358: 3351: 778: 1511:")). I am trying to get this to a "Featured Artice".. (It has already been passed for "Good Article") and I need some one to review and tell me what to fix/do to make that happen.( 1185:

Well, there are four more articles on Sappho poems which predate my presence on wikipedia, and one about a poem which may or may not be by Sappho... Look out for improvements to

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While previously I had directly linked to the section that spoke of the authorship of the work that the article was speaking about. This link was changed by another editor.

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which is already cited at n.2. Giving the full citation on first occurence and a shortened citation thereafter is perfectly common as a citation practice in the classics.

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contributed to past discussions. Apologies if I've left you off or contacted you and you didn't want it. Next time there is a newsletter / mass message it will be opt in (

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article has a lack of images for later history, and am trying to add some images. I'm wondering why you just deleted the Toulouse Lautrec image of lesbian entertainer

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It is great to see you are back writing on Knowledge (XXG) after so long an absence! You are definitely one of the best writers we have on classics-related subjects. —

2112:) - it sounds like you might be interested in what we've been doing, so if you ever fancy joining us, we have monthly online sessions at which you'd be very welcome! 2502:

them, and I'm certainly not infalliable: I always appreciate seeing what others think should and shouldn't be in the articles I watch, even when I disagree with them.

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article. I hope you'll stick around and help me get it to FA status...! An aside, per your username, are you "recumbens"? It took me back a bit, then I discovered

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that I added. I was in the middle of redoing the caption when the image disappeared. Let's discuss how we can add some later images to this article. Thank you

1081:, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See 4747:

about ancient Greece and Rome are among the best Knowledge (XXG) has. I was saddened when I saw you had left and I am so glad you have decided to come back. —

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When I linked to go past the redirect I failed to have it go directly to the section. Therefore, it is not covered by the standard I was thinking of which is

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Well, all of us (we hope!) get better at writing wikipedia articles with practice. It may not be up to your standards today, but when you look back at what

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Upon review, as the section on authorship of the linked article is at the top. I concede that there is no need for the section to be directly linked to. --

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thanks for poking me. I had intended to give you a FAC review when you first nominated, but then Real Life happened to me. I've given a few comments now.

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if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the

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if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the

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if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the

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if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the

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if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the

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for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can

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for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can

4139:- if placed in the "Geography" section, JaneSmith will receive an automatic update every yearly about unanswered peer reviews in the geography area. 3937:

for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can

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for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can

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for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can

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for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can

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for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can

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for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can

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for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can

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that with a bit of work that could be a fairly respectable featured article some day... And of course gallons of scholarly ink have been spilt on

1283: 706: 4133:- if placed in the "History" section, JohnSmith will receive an automatic update every month about unanswered peer reviews relating to history. 3543:. If you fancied a spot of getting your own back after my nit-picking litany, it would be splendid if you were to look in at Mrs David's PR. – 1497:

Hi Caeciliusinhorto, I hope everything is fine. I was wondering if you have the time.. could you take up(look at/review) the "Peer review" for

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become clear.) If you look at the individual page data for Ode to Aphrodite and Sappho 31, you can also clearly see that those spikes

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Thank you for quality articles on "women's history, social history of ancient Greece, and the intersection between the two" such as

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Done – thank you! Can we look forward to more such articles? I hope so. Ping me, by all means, if you lack a reviewer at any point.

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I love the Ode to Aphrodite and fondly remember writing an essay on it back in undergrad. It would be a great subject for an FA.

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This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period.

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This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period.

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This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period.

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This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period.

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Thank you! I am sorry to hear that you have largely left wikipedia. I continue to appreciate your work here, especially to

4543:, to the point that bringing that to FA is intimidating more from the sheer volume of sources I would have to work through! 3300:

Hi Caecilius, thank you for your comments at my RfA. I will definitely keep them in mind. Your support is much appreciated!

768: 3332:. I was wondering if you might be able to drop by and leave a few comments/suggestions? I'd really appreciate it! Thanks.-- 5057: 4437: 3116: 3115:

A wrong Gregory, but a Gregory nonetheless :) thanks for your review- it was a pleasure working with you. Take care, —

1771: 3453: 3219: 2141: 1235: 827: 577: 5042:! Many thanks for your due diligence, Caeciliusinhorto. and I look forward to working with you again. Cheers! *hic* ;) 4872: 4776: 4708: 4544: 3102: 905: 383:

describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to

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is still waiting. Its only a short article but its has as much information as we could possibly find! Thanks again, ツ

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with the email address you want your voucher to be sent to? Thank you, Karla Marte(WMUK) 14:08, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

964:). When I have finished it, if neither of your articles are being reviewed I'll try to have a look at one of them. 5101: 4995: 4303: 3938: 3751: 3670: 3629: 3570: 3509: 3495: 3277: 3263: 3194: 3079: 3045: 3000: 2799: 2724: 2614: 2558: 2519: 2382:

Hello! I hope everything is well. Several months ago, you provided some helpful suggestions to improve the article

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited

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I want to thank you for your contributions and for volunteering on the list to help out at peer review. Thank you!

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Hello Caeciliusinhorto, I think all the required changes to Julian are done, including the citations. Regards,

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fit. Looking into it, I see that Dimitrios Yatromanolakis has a little to say about Plato and the Phaedrus in

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which makes it clear what you are referencing, other editors can always fiddle around with the formatting...

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of GAs, and I am uncertain whether to list it in the Ancient texts or the Poetry subsection. What think you?

4707:'s!) work cross my watchlist, and Grigson is a fine successor to your previous English cookery writer FACs. 3433: 3240: 1116: 198:

again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on

4355:: you can clearly see the spike in pageviews for Frr. 1 and 31 from August-September 2017, coinciding with 2812: 2760: 1271: 5175: 4900: 4607: 4038: 3255: 3029: 2598: 2544:

It means a lot that Plato mentioned her, though would it've killed him to give us little more than he did?

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the world|date=2007|publisher=Pan|location=London|isbn=9780330419185|page=146|edition=1. pbk. ed.}

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the world|date=2007|publisher=Pan|location=London|isbn=9780330419185|page=231|edition=1. pbk. ed.}

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I was idly curious on how many views the Sappho articles were getting so I punched them in here:

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three epigrams attributed to her are preserved, but these are in fact Hellenistic imitations

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that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. It is as follows:

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Hi. Thankyou for your participation in the challenge series or/and contests. In November

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In light of the above, I have reversed my link edit on the article about the 411 coup. --

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Knowledge (XXG):Manual_of_Style/Linking#Piped_links_and_redirects_to_sections_of_articles

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missing key events in the battle such as the betrayal of Ephialtes, and the account of [[

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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request#Patterson 1986, in Helios

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Hello, I was just wondering if you would be interested in reviewing another of mine and

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In that case, and if you would like, please fix the reference to point to #2 instead.

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It does discuss Sappho if you scroll down to the bottom of the page and the next page.

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Don't worry if you can't - I know there are 101 other things for Wikipedians to do! ツ

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It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these

106:

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these

4681:

Thank you for brush up on the Grigson article - they are much appreciated. Cheers -

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Congratulations on the promotion! Deserved recognition for some very thorough work.

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herself: since she hit GA, she's averaged something over 6000 more views-per-month.)

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You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page

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It is actually possible for people not logged in to create articles either through

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Thank you, Gerda! From such a prolific and longstanding editor, this means a lot.

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And an addendum from a real person: congratulations on a most satisfying article.

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow

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Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a

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the eternal curse of the classicist! we never know as much as we would like.

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