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people are fatigued with it possibly. Personally, I don't think bolding is too important, I assumed the bolding was done if a trophy was actually lifted (cup/league winners) and not done if it was just a promotion/runners-up but I'm not an expert. As for the
Italian style, I'm not a fan aesthetically, I would stick with the current one until they find a consensus (eventually). Also, was there a reason you put the year instead of the season: 2023 instead of 2022–23 for example? I've seen it on some pages before but wasn't sure on the reasoning
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etc, that the honours sections were in fact not excessively bolded, and that Mathew was simply stating his preferred format. I tried to re-start this conversation last week and it was really cool to see that a lot of people were engaging, but the discussion halted for whatever reason, and when I asked again no one responded, I simply got:
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I'm sorry mate, but you're the only one I've encountered so far on this site who prefers absolutely no bolding in your edits, a few months ago I attempted to make all of the clubs articles similar to that of how you style York City as you said they contained ecessive bolding, which I later found out
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I agree, but I think I've decided I'm not going to start adding cup icons, which would be a big change, and likely require a consenus. So simply bolding a league/cup name and removing the words "winners and champions" is hardly "radical". It sounds bad, but everything would take about 5 years to get
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I really don't understand how a consensus hasn't been found years ago on this tbh, it's very frustrating that there's no uniformity - I appreciate you attempting to find some. I don't think it's that people aren't interested, I think it's more that the discussion comes up often without a solution so
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From my perspective, it seems that people aren't to bothered with trying to get a new concrete honours format, now I'm simply just trying to un-do some of the work I did a few months back, whilst trying to make it as clear for the reader as possible, I've asked a lot of people in real life, and they
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I apologise for wrongly editing
Liverpool’s article, I really don’t mean it in a malicious way which seems to be everyone’s thinking. My end goal is to make it as easy and accessible for all viewers as possible, as I’m a very new editor compared to some other users, I’m bound to make mistakes along
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Personally think some clubs really need the minor title section, it’s so cluttered otherwise, many already had them too. For some clubs winning the Watney Cup, Isthmian League Cup say, should not be in the same bracket as winning the FA Cup, League Cup etc. makes more sense to separate honours into
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Around 4 months ago, Mathewhite, (you're probably aware of him), stated that he believed a lot of the honours sections on club articles contained excessive bolding, so I spent days un-bolding them with a bit of his guidance. However, I've realised from other admins, such as Chris the dude, Number57
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and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion
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I'm not sure that's the issue though. I don't think it's a bad idea to make the tiers/bolding uniform by yourself, but it seems slightly wrong/disruptive to change things so radically without any consensus at all. I would definitely wait before changing everything personally as it'll probably just
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The reason I stated 2023 rather than 2022-23 is that it just looks way simpler. It's easier to see that a team won a cup 5 times in 1961, 1968, 1988, 1992 and 2009, than 1961-62, 1967-68, 1988-89, 1991-92, and 2008-09. Plus when people hover over the link, they'll clearly see the season. Hopefully
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I don't get why you're undoing my edits, you do realise the versions you restored them to were my edits too - and they didn't have a consensus. At the end of the day a clearer, simpler format should always go ahead of a complex one, and I beleive the new one is just that. Before I started editing
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I really just don't see the need to state winners or champions, someone on the talk page made that suggestion, really clutters up the honours section. Think we should only state anything if the title was won via play offs. Always thought runners up/promotion should be stated in a seperate section
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Personally I don't belive removing winners/champions, should have to go through consensus first, if people really don't like it, and explain their reasoning, then that's perfectly fine, it's not really a huge change, we already do the same with players articles and another eidtor on the football
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This article: "Somerset Derby" is based on the supposed
Football rivalry between two non-League clubs: Bath City FC and Yeovil Town FC. Albiet, the article contains a lack of real evidence supporting this. There are few references and they are poorly sourced. There is nothing stating how
2147:, I have two points. First, the bolding is not something that should be done: these are header cells, which are bolded by default, bolding what is already boldface may show on some browsers as extra-heavy type, in others as normal bold. Such edits should only be done with consensus, at
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you are saying that each header cell applies to the ones below it, which is plainly nonsense because the whole column is header cells; and by doing so you are creating accessibility issues. If you are doing this on aesthetic grounds, that is definitely the wrong thing to do.
2230:
Please, stop edit warring and achieve a consensus first. 29 trophies won by Man City is not comparable to Real Madrid's 101 or Man United's 67. Other clubs, such as
Tottenham, Brighton, Newcastle and many others, do not use your table. Seek consensus on the talk page first.
264:. You can use the edit summary field to explain your reasoning for an edit, or to provide a description of what the edit changes. Summaries save time for other editors and reduce the chances that your edit will be misunderstood. For some edits, an adequate summary may be
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supporters/fans feel about the other club, merely a couple of newspaper references labelling it a "rivalry" due to location. There are far more major rivalries that do not have their own articles, therefore I question this articles notability, accuracy and reliability.
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I’ve talked to other editors about this, and about your style. And I have tried to gain consensus several times. Many preferred the new format, to the one with no bonding. Don’t worry I won’t be editing York City’s, have a nice day anyway and enjoy the sun.
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Yes I like your layout. I do think it looks a bit tidier without stating champions/winners but I don't have a massive preference. Do you think new readers would understand it easy enough though? Also, in your example, where would you add the
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Apologies for the confusion then - I'm not trying to undermine your work. As I've said a few times, whether you think consensus is likely or not, I still think you should get it before removing winners/champions as it's quite a big change.
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Basically, people are just too wapped up in more important aspects of this site to really care about formating honours. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts and what your prefered format is though, be nice to combine some ideas mate!
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Yes but the
Italian Knowledge do that, and use cups officially so many outdated rules that make it harder and more confusing for readers imo… would only ever use it for the hounours section, But thanks anyway mate, appreciate it.
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Soccerway (which we often use for player honours) also often add runners-up for a league onto their honours too you could argue. Yes, I like the images, are there ones available for all tournaments (PL, FA Cup, EFL Trophy etc)?
2079:
Not sure why you feel our current MoS is "extremely outdated", but if you disagree with it I advise you seek consensus for your changes instead of going round dozens of club articles applying your own preferred format. Thanks.
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And any cups that are friendlies/one match or for specfic counties only should be definitely be considered minor for all teams, unless they have only won such trophies (but we're basically talking about tier 7 and 8
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What is your issue with the changes I just made? Don't revert everything, especially as everything was explained. By all means changed individual things, but better still explain yourself on the article's talk page
1916:'s for example, it would be best to keep their Level 7/8/9 wins in major titles as it seems arbitrary to cut off at Level 6 imo. If their first team won a league/trophy, it probably shouldn't be minor I would say.
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What the
Italian Knowledge does has no bearing on what we permit. Each Knowledge sets its own rules, and cannot tell any other Knowledge what they can or cannot do. Nearly fifteen years ago, we decided (see e.g.
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It is simpler but I think that most sources like the BBC would say that
Manchester City won the PL in the 2022–23 season, not that they won it in 2023. I think it would be more accurate to keep that format
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from other admins that this wasn't true. If there is any section in an article that should be bolded, it should be the honours section, please stop shoving an extremely outdated: "MOS:B". Thanks anyway.
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No worries mate :) I'd prefer to keep cups in the season rather than year personally. Also, I'd prefer to keep runners-up (league & cup) and promotions in there for now, until people say otherwise
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Thanks man! One thing, is that I can't really agree with that tho, I think I title should be deemed "minor" depending on how big the trophies that they have won are. Should be based on notability.
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I know, really odd, you'd think they'd have come up with a concrete format years ago! I'm also a tad ocd on these things so find it very frustrating when there's no consistency/uniformity.
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said they believe that the
Italian Style honours section I'm attempting to implement now, for mainly west country clubs looks far clearer and easier to read. Hopefully that makes sense.
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That looks good! Yeah you're right about stating the season rather than just the year, also agree that we shouldn't state the number of times unless it's been won 5 or more times.
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That's a shame I (obvs) really like the
Italian style... what would be your prefered format if you could pick, be good to share some ideas? maybe if you showed me an example.
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that may not have been. "Minor edit" has a very specific definition on
Knowledge—it refers only to superficial edits that could never be the subject of a dispute, such as
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Who defines what league is notable or not though? If we said level 6 is notable for one team but not others, surely it's just making the problem you want to fix worse?
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From my experience, cups were always stated at the actual year they were won, not the season, but I don't rly care tbh. Maybe leaving the season keeps it more uniform?
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with honours, don't see how finishing 3rd/4th should really be regarded as a trophy/honour, I wouldn't for my club. I think trophy icons look really good personally.
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them, bolding was present for nearly all of the articles, I'm simply undoing my work a few months ago, whilst trying to implement a clearer and more uniform format.
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2503:, please note that you cannot take it to featured article status, because it's a list. Lists may, however, be nominated for featured list status, see
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Cup icons on the other hand, would be quite a big change and I won't be adding them, unless a consensus is found. (even though they look really nice)
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If you wanna start the dicussion again bro, go ahead, untill then I'm just doing my best to make it clearer for readers, and kinda undo my own work.
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Mmmm, did literally say have a nice day and enjoy the sun, genuinely, not sarcastically. Which one would assume is a tad more of a “courtesy” then @
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are readers are smart enough to assume that the year stated is the year that the club lifted the cup. (e.g. not the start of that particular season)
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Thanks for letting me know, I'll go back and add all of the runners up and promotions sections over time mate, sorry If I got rid of some.
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1815:, but winning League Two shouldn't be under minor titles, it was won by their first team in a fully professional league. Same goes for
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Please can you stop changing the honours for now? The talk page didn't find any consensus, so it would be better to leave it for now.
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Nah no worries, sorry I came across a bit strongly there. Communication can be quite hard to get right on this site sometimes.
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I also don't think we should be removing runners-up from the honours section too, considering many sources still include them
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Please do not use styles that are nonstandard, unusual, inappropriate or difficult to understand in articles, as you did in
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Reserves honours should be in the reserves articles - or not included. completely differen't set up/manager staff etc...
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I agree, but as I told you earlier, no one seems to be bothered, or they are simply too busy with more important things.
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I would also link to each tournament's page and add the no. times they've won a tournament, if it's more than 5/6 times.
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and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.
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finishing as runners-up in the League Cup or even Plymouth as runners-up in the EFL Trophy deserves a mention imo
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failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article.
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Also for cups, shouldn't they be 2011-12 rather than 2012 for those honours? (in the example of Chesterfield)
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E.g. for Shefield Wednesday, as they have won the First Division, the National League would be deemed "minor"
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Thought you said you liked my layout bro. Anyway, for Chesterfield's EFL Trophy runners up I added into the
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Another point mate, I'd leave the minor titles to reserve trophies only. Not sure if it was a mistake for
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1870:- all the club honours should be uniform, it would be strange to include them on some but not others.
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Thank you mate! I think it would be good if play offs are left the same as in your example, e.g.
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I think that's reasonable regarding runners-up/promotion, although there are some exceptions:
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If a league that has been won is more than 3 tiers below that club heighet achivement.
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1575:, I think it would be best to get consensus before making too many changes ideally.
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Everything you're doing (editing wise) is against what you said to me, that's all.
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It's more about consensus really, two people's opinions aren't really enough imo
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project talk page agreed that it just unessasrily clutters the section.
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76:. Below are some useful links to help you get started. Happy editing!
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If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may
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Also, please don't remove the runners-up & promotions, such as in
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Hi Joseph1891! I noticed that you recently marked an edit as minor at
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Hi man, let me explain why I have continued to change the honours.
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you can give yourself a reminder to add an edit summary by setting
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You can ignore this, another editor already removed the template.
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larger titles and small titles. Rather than leagues and cups imo.
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It's courtesy to tag editors when discussing them, but hey ho.
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I would suggest something similar to what most clubs have atm:
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Knowledge:Peer review/List of Bath City F.C. seasons/archive1
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I would like this article to gain featured article status
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Hi Joseph, I saw that you recently nominated four lists (
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I also think we should include cup runners-up somewhere.
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I would prefer that. Yes county cups should be minor
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Yep, there are trophies for all of the major titles:
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120:Finding your way around
34:Hello, Joseph1891, and
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2355:Draft:Vandanel Sports
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18:User talk:Joseph1891
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1050:===League===
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2688:good article
2684:Twerton Park
2682:The article
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2629:good article
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2226:Honours list
2043:
2028:
1949:
1946:
1914:Salford City
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914:Lee Vilenski
909:Lee Vilenski
885:good article
881:Twerton Park
879:The article
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826:good article
820:The article
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607:Lee Vilenski
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581:the article
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550:
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450:(talk to me)
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396:(talk to me)
389:
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363:your sandbox
343:
328:
287:
286:
277:Edit summary
274:
270:
262:edit summary
246:
238:
227:
157:Getting help
95:Introduction
66:by clicking
55:
48:Getting Help
47:
41:
35:
33:
2788:voting page
2708:ChristieBot
2690:has failed
2649:ChristieBot
2631:has failed
2144:these edits
2007:Michaeldble
1967:Michaeldble
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1577:Michaeldble
1310:Michaeldble
1292:Michaeldble
1142:(Tier 3): 5
1098:Michaeldble
1075:===Cups===
1047:==Honours==
1041:personally.
1007:Michaeldble
933:Michaeldble
905:ChristieBot
887:has failed
846:ChristieBot
828:has failed
730:ChristieBot
603:ChristieBot
349:Hello, I'm
297:Preferences
266:quite brief
58:{{Help me}}
54:, or place
2935:Under the
2772:topic bans
2483:Joseph1891
2381:FireflyBot
2200:Joseph1891
2129:Joseph1891
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1397:League Cup
1381:League One
1377:League Two
1280:play-offs?
1267:Joseph1891
1184:League Two
1140:League One
1028:Joseph1891
992:Joseph1891
977:Joseph1891
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666:draftspace
553:FireflyBot
500:FireflyBot
332:10mmsocket
317:10mmsocket
183:Help pages
167:Cheatsheet
2768:site bans
2587:has been
2547:has been
2409:has been
2365:again or
2169:scope=col
2165:scope=row
2157:scope=col
2153:scope=row
1573:Redrose64
1431:FA Trophy
1086:: 1980–81
1057:Champions
783:mainspace
537:again or
484:again or
417:vandalism
373:. Thanks.
371:Help desk
258:Knowledge
214:Practice
52:help desk
2599:Frietjes
2559:Frietjes
2505:WP:WIAFL
2421:Frietjes
2233:Monerals
2149:WT:FOOTY
2025:May 2023
1306:Rochdale
1186:(Tier 4)
718:criteria
638:reliable
591:criteria
437:Sumanuil
383:Sumanuil
367:Teahouse
351:Sumanuil
216:civility
28:Welcome!
2795:NoACEMM
2367:request
2363:edit it
1989:there).
1256:1950–51
1250:1960–61
1229:1905–06
1207:1912–13
1193:2001–02
1165:2022–23
1161:2003–04
1157:1958–59
1153:1951–52
1149:1929–30
1084:Winners
855:Harrias
850:Harrias
739:Harrias
734:Harrias
539:request
535:edit it
486:request
482:edit it
421:meaning
369:or the
301:Editing
290:With a
232:Snowman
208:Follow
81:Snowman
2895:buidhe
2696:; see
2637:; see
2516:rose64
2509:WP:FLC
2456:WP:GAN
2450:, and
2327:buidhe
2185:rose64
1559:rose64
1513:rose64
1361:FA Cup
1122:Titles
1079:FA Cup
1068:: 2005
893:; see
834:; see
670:Draft:
660:is of
646:WP:GNG
239:(UTC)
2671:Your
2612:Your
2454:) at
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229:Giant
78:Giant
2986:talk
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2963:here
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2518:🌹 (
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2965:.
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2864:or
2715:--
2656:--
2514:Red
2464:FLC
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2177:col
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737:--
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2793:{{
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