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people are fatigued with it possibly. Personally, I don't think bolding is too important, I assumed the bolding was done if a trophy was actually lifted (cup/league winners) and not done if it was just a promotion/runners-up but I'm not an expert. As for the
Italian style, I'm not a fan aesthetically, I would stick with the current one until they find a consensus (eventually). Also, was there a reason you put the year instead of the season: 2023 instead of 2022–23 for example? I've seen it on some pages before but wasn't sure on the reasoning
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etc, that the honours sections were in fact not excessively bolded, and that Mathew was simply stating his preferred format. I tried to re-start this conversation last week and it was really cool to see that a lot of people were engaging, but the discussion halted for whatever reason, and when I asked again no one responded, I simply got:
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I'm sorry mate, but you're the only one I've encountered so far on this site who prefers absolutely no bolding in your edits, a few months ago I attempted to make all of the clubs articles similar to that of how you style York City as you said they contained ecessive bolding, which I later found out
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I agree, but I think I've decided I'm not going to start adding cup icons, which would be a big change, and likely require a consenus. So simply bolding a league/cup name and removing the words "winners and champions" is hardly "radical". It sounds bad, but everything would take about 5 years to get
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I really don't understand how a consensus hasn't been found years ago on this tbh, it's very frustrating that there's no uniformity - I appreciate you attempting to find some. I don't think it's that people aren't interested, I think it's more that the discussion comes up often without a solution so
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From my perspective, it seems that people aren't to bothered with trying to get a new concrete honours format, now I'm simply just trying to un-do some of the work I did a few months back, whilst trying to make it as clear for the reader as possible, I've asked a lot of people in real life, and they
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I apologise for wrongly editing
Liverpool’s article, I really don’t mean it in a malicious way which seems to be everyone’s thinking. My end goal is to make it as easy and accessible for all viewers as possible, as I’m a very new editor compared to some other users, I’m bound to make mistakes along
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Personally think some clubs really need the minor title section, it’s so cluttered otherwise, many already had them too. For some clubs winning the Watney Cup, Isthmian League Cup say, should not be in the same bracket as winning the FA Cup, League Cup etc. makes more sense to separate honours into
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Around 4 months ago, Mathewhite, (you're probably aware of him), stated that he believed a lot of the honours sections on club articles contained excessive bolding, so I spent days un-bolding them with a bit of his guidance. However, I've realised from other admins, such as Chris the dude, Number57
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and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion
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I'm not sure that's the issue though. I don't think it's a bad idea to make the tiers/bolding uniform by yourself, but it seems slightly wrong/disruptive to change things so radically without any consensus at all. I would definitely wait before changing everything personally as it'll probably just
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The reason I stated 2023 rather than 2022-23 is that it just looks way simpler. It's easier to see that a team won a cup 5 times in 1961, 1968, 1988, 1992 and 2009, than 1961-62, 1967-68, 1988-89, 1991-92, and 2008-09. Plus when people hover over the link, they'll clearly see the season. Hopefully
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I don't get why you're undoing my edits, you do realise the versions you restored them to were my edits too - and they didn't have a consensus. At the end of the day a clearer, simpler format should always go ahead of a complex one, and I beleive the new one is just that. Before I started editing
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I really just don't see the need to state winners or champions, someone on the talk page made that suggestion, really clutters up the honours section. Think we should only state anything if the title was won via play offs. Always thought runners up/promotion should be stated in a seperate section
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Personally I don't belive removing winners/champions, should have to go through consensus first, if people really don't like it, and explain their reasoning, then that's perfectly fine, it's not really a huge change, we already do the same with players articles and another eidtor on the football
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This article: "Somerset Derby" is based on the supposed
Football rivalry between two non-League clubs: Bath City FC and Yeovil Town FC. Albiet, the article contains a lack of real evidence supporting this. There are few references and they are poorly sourced. There is nothing stating how
2136:, I have two points. First, the bolding is not something that should be done: these are header cells, which are bolded by default, bolding what is already boldface may show on some browsers as extra-heavy type, in others as normal bold. Such edits should only be done with consensus, at
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you are saying that each header cell applies to the ones below it, which is plainly nonsense because the whole column is header cells; and by doing so you are creating accessibility issues. If you are doing this on aesthetic grounds, that is definitely the wrong thing to do.
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Please, stop edit warring and achieve a consensus first. 29 trophies won by Man City is not comparable to Real Madrid's 101 or Man United's 67. Other clubs, such as
Tottenham, Brighton, Newcastle and many others, do not use your table. Seek consensus on the talk page first.
253:. You can use the edit summary field to explain your reasoning for an edit, or to provide a description of what the edit changes. Summaries save time for other editors and reduce the chances that your edit will be misunderstood. For some edits, an adequate summary may be
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supporters/fans feel about the other club, merely a couple of newspaper references labelling it a "rivalry" due to location. There are far more major rivalries that do not have their own articles, therefore I question this articles notability, accuracy and reliability.
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I’ve talked to other editors about this, and about your style. And I have tried to gain consensus several times. Many preferred the new format, to the one with no bonding. Don’t worry I won’t be editing York City’s, have a nice day anyway and enjoy the sun.
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Yes I like your layout. I do think it looks a bit tidier without stating champions/winners but I don't have a massive preference. Do you think new readers would understand it easy enough though? Also, in your example, where would you add the
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Apologies for the confusion then - I'm not trying to undermine your work. As I've said a few times, whether you think consensus is likely or not, I still think you should get it before removing winners/champions as it's quite a big change.
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Basically, people are just too wapped up in more important aspects of this site to really care about formating honours. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts and what your prefered format is though, be nice to combine some ideas mate!
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Yes but the
Italian Knowledge do that, and use cups officially so many outdated rules that make it harder and more confusing for readers imo… would only ever use it for the hounours section, But thanks anyway mate, appreciate it.
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Soccerway (which we often use for player honours) also often add runners-up for a league onto their honours too you could argue. Yes, I like the images, are there ones available for all tournaments (PL, FA Cup, EFL Trophy etc)?
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Not sure why you feel our current MoS is "extremely outdated", but if you disagree with it I advise you seek consensus for your changes instead of going round dozens of club articles applying your own preferred format. Thanks.
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And any cups that are friendlies/one match or for specfic counties only should be definitely be considered minor for all teams, unless they have only won such trophies (but we're basically talking about tier 7 and 8
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What is your issue with the changes I just made? Don't revert everything, especially as everything was explained. By all means changed individual things, but better still explain yourself on the article's talk page
1905:'s for example, it would be best to keep their Level 7/8/9 wins in major titles as it seems arbitrary to cut off at Level 6 imo. If their first team won a league/trophy, it probably shouldn't be minor I would say.
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What the
Italian Knowledge does has no bearing on what we permit. Each Knowledge sets its own rules, and cannot tell any other Knowledge what they can or cannot do. Nearly fifteen years ago, we decided (see e.g.
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It is simpler but I think that most sources like the BBC would say that
Manchester City won the PL in the 2022–23 season, not that they won it in 2023. I think it would be more accurate to keep that format
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from other admins that this wasn't true. If there is any section in an article that should be bolded, it should be the honours section, please stop shoving an extremely outdated: "MOS:B". Thanks anyway.
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No worries mate :) I'd prefer to keep cups in the season rather than year personally. Also, I'd prefer to keep runners-up (league & cup) and promotions in there for now, until people say otherwise
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Thanks man! One thing, is that I can't really agree with that tho, I think I title should be deemed "minor" depending on how big the trophies that they have won are. Should be based on notability.
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I know, really odd, you'd think they'd have come up with a concrete format years ago! I'm also a tad ocd on these things so find it very frustrating when there's no consistency/uniformity.
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said they believe that the
Italian Style honours section I'm attempting to implement now, for mainly west country clubs looks far clearer and easier to read. Hopefully that makes sense.
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That looks good! Yeah you're right about stating the season rather than just the year, also agree that we shouldn't state the number of times unless it's been won 5 or more times.
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That's a shame I (obvs) really like the
Italian style... what would be your prefered format if you could pick, be good to share some ideas? maybe if you showed me an example.
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that may not have been. "Minor edit" has a very specific definition on
Knowledge—it refers only to superficial edits that could never be the subject of a dispute, such as
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Who defines what league is notable or not though? If we said level 6 is notable for one team but not others, surely it's just making the problem you want to fix worse?
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From my experience, cups were always stated at the actual year they were won, not the season, but I don't rly care tbh. Maybe leaving the season keeps it more uniform?
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with honours, don't see how finishing 3rd/4th should really be regarded as a trophy/honour, I wouldn't for my club. I think trophy icons look really good personally.
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them, bolding was present for nearly all of the articles, I'm simply undoing my work a few months ago, whilst trying to implement a clearer and more uniform format.
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2492:, please note that you cannot take it to featured article status, because it's a list. Lists may, however, be nominated for featured list status, see
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Cup icons on the other hand, would be quite a big change and I won't be adding them, unless a consensus is found. (even though they look really nice)
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If you wanna start the dicussion again bro, go ahead, untill then I'm just doing my best to make it clearer for readers, and kinda undo my own work.
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Mmmm, did literally say have a nice day and enjoy the sun, genuinely, not sarcastically. Which one would assume is a tad more of a “courtesy” then @
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are readers are smart enough to assume that the year stated is the year that the club lifted the cup. (e.g. not the start of that particular season)
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Thanks for letting me know, I'll go back and add all of the runners up and promotions sections over time mate, sorry If I got rid of some.
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Please can you stop changing the honours for now? The talk page didn't find any consensus, so it would be better to leave it for now.
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Nah no worries, sorry I came across a bit strongly there. Communication can be quite hard to get right on this site sometimes.
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I also don't think we should be removing runners-up from the honours section too, considering many sources still include them
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Please do not use styles that are nonstandard, unusual, inappropriate or difficult to understand in articles, as you did in
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Reserves honours should be in the reserves articles - or not included. completely differen't set up/manager staff etc...
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I agree, but as I told you earlier, no one seems to be bothered, or they are simply too busy with more important things.
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I would also link to each tournament's page and add the no. times they've won a tournament, if it's more than 5/6 times.
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and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.
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finishing as runners-up in the League Cup or even Plymouth as runners-up in the EFL Trophy deserves a mention imo
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Also for cups, shouldn't they be 2011-12 rather than 2012 for those honours? (in the example of Chesterfield)
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E.g. for Shefield Wednesday, as they have won the First Division, the National League would be deemed "minor"
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Thought you said you liked my layout bro. Anyway, for Chesterfield's EFL Trophy runners up I added into the
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Another point mate, I'd leave the minor titles to reserve trophies only. Not sure if it was a mistake for
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1859:- all the club honours should be uniform, it would be strange to include them on some but not others.
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https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/football/news/sheffield-united-promotion-paul-merson-26812124
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Thank you mate! I think it would be good if play offs are left the same as in your example, e.g.
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I think that's reasonable regarding runners-up/promotion, although there are some exceptions:
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If a league that has been won is more than 3 tiers below that club heighet achivement.
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Everything you're doing (editing wise) is against what you said to me, that's all.
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It's more about consensus really, two people's opinions aren't really enough imo
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project talk page agreed that it just unessasrily clutters the section.
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65:. Below are some useful links to help you get started. Happy editing!
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If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may
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Also, please don't remove the runners-up & promotions, such as in
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Hi Joseph1891! I noticed that you recently marked an edit as minor at
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Hi man, let me explain why I have continued to change the honours.
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you can give yourself a reminder to add an edit summary by setting
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larger titles and small titles. Rather than leagues and cups imo.
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It's courtesy to tag editors when discussing them, but hey ho.
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I would suggest something similar to what most clubs have atm:
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Knowledge:Peer review/List of Bath City F.C. seasons/archive1
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I would like this article to gain featured article status
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Hi Joseph, I saw that you recently nominated four lists (
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I also think we should include cup runners-up somewhere.
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I would prefer that. Yes county cups should be minor
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Yep, there are trophies for all of the major titles:
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2724:
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2396:Template:Aston Villa departments
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2385:Template:Aston Villa departments
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2470:Okay, thanks for your help :)
2441:List of Bath City F.C. seasons
2433:List of Bath City F.C. players
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2363:request it be undeleted
1593:end up reverted anyway
1102:What about this, using
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119:Directories and indexes
109:Finding your way around
23:Hello, Joseph1891, and
2947:deleting administrator
2933:contest the nomination
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2732:Hello! Voting in the
2695:Message delivered by
2636:Message delivered by
2457:~~ AirshipJungleman29
2344:Draft:Vandanel Sports
2332:Draft:Vandanel Sports
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892:Message delivered by
833:Message delivered by
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717:Message delivered by
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404:or reverting obvious
241:Hello. Thank you for
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124:Department directory
2675:you nominated as a
2628:Talk:Bath City F.C.
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2423:GA list nominations
1493:Please be aware of
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1051:Runners-up: 2003–04
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199:Knowledge etiquette
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63:edit summary field
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1039:===League===
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2848:
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2677:good article
2673:Twerton Park
2671:The article
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2666:Twerton Park
2618:good article
2612:The article
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2278:sign up here
2276:
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2218:
2215:Honours list
2032:
2017:
1938:
1935:
1903:Salford City
1731:
1492:
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1333:Championship
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1206:Minor titles
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903:Lee Vilenski
898:Lee Vilenski
874:good article
870:Twerton Park
868:The article
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863:Twerton Park
815:good article
809:The article
808:
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697:the article
692:
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601:Lee Vilenski
596:Lee Vilenski
572:Twerton Park
570:the article
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561:Twerton Park
539:
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486:
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455:
439:(talk to me)
432:
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418:
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385:(talk to me)
378:
371:
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364:
352:your sandbox
332:
317:
276:
275:
266:Edit summary
263:
259:
251:edit summary
235:
227:
216:
146:Getting help
84:Introduction
55:by clicking
44:
37:Getting Help
36:
30:
24:
22:
2777:voting page
2697:ChristieBot
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2638:ChristieBot
2620:has failed
2133:these edits
1996:Michaeldble
1956:Michaeldble
1907:Michaeldble
1861:Michaeldble
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1788:Michaeldble
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1656:Michaeldble
1642:Michaeldble
1595:Michaeldble
1566:Michaeldble
1299:Michaeldble
1281:Michaeldble
1131:(Tier 3): 5
1087:Michaeldble
1064:===Cups===
1036:==Honours==
1030:personally.
996:Michaeldble
922:Michaeldble
894:ChristieBot
876:has failed
835:ChristieBot
817:has failed
719:ChristieBot
592:ChristieBot
338:Hello, I'm
286:Preferences
255:quite brief
47:{{Help me}}
43:, or place
2924:Under the
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2370:FireflyBot
2189:Joseph1891
2118:Joseph1891
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2056:Joseph1891
1982:Joseph1891
1941:Joseph1891
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1464:Joseph1891
1386:League Cup
1370:League One
1366:League Two
1269:play-offs?
1256:Joseph1891
1173:League Two
1129:League One
1017:Joseph1891
981:Joseph1891
966:Joseph1891
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655:draftspace
542:FireflyBot
489:FireflyBot
321:10mmsocket
306:10mmsocket
172:Help pages
156:Cheatsheet
2757:site bans
2576:has been
2536:has been
2398:has been
2354:again or
2158:scope=col
2154:scope=row
2146:scope=col
2142:scope=row
1562:Redrose64
1420:FA Trophy
1075:: 1980–81
1046:Champions
772:mainspace
526:again or
473:again or
406:vandalism
362:. Thanks.
360:Help desk
247:Knowledge
203:Practice
41:help desk
2588:Frietjes
2548:Frietjes
2494:WP:WIAFL
2410:Frietjes
2222:Monerals
2138:WT:FOOTY
2014:May 2023
1295:Rochdale
1175:(Tier 4)
707:criteria
627:reliable
580:criteria
426:Sumanuil
372:Sumanuil
356:Teahouse
340:Sumanuil
205:civility
17:Welcome!
2784:NoACEMM
2356:request
2352:edit it
1978:there).
1245:1950–51
1239:1960–61
1218:1905–06
1196:1912–13
1182:2001–02
1154:2022–23
1150:2003–04
1146:1958–59
1142:1951–52
1138:1929–30
1073:Winners
844:Harrias
839:Harrias
728:Harrias
723:Harrias
528:request
524:edit it
475:request
471:edit it
410:meaning
358:or the
290:Editing
279:With a
221:Snowman
197:Follow
70:Snowman
2884:buidhe
2685:; see
2626:; see
2505:rose64
2498:WP:FLC
2445:WP:GAN
2439:, and
2316:buidhe
2174:rose64
1548:rose64
1502:rose64
1350:FA Cup
1111:Titles
1068:FA Cup
1057:: 2005
882:; see
823:; see
659:Draft:
649:is of
635:WP:GNG
228:(UTC)
2660:Your
2601:Your
2443:) at
2035:MOS:B
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857:Your
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761:Draft
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218:Giant
67:Giant
2975:talk
2960:talk
2952:here
2795:talk
2747:The
2710:talk
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2592:talk
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2509:talk
2507:🌹 (
2500:. --
2496:and
2476:talk
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2176:🌹 (
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1550:🌹 (
1543:. --
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1497:. --
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672:5969
669:Onel
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2954:.
2935:by
2853:or
2704:--
2645:--
2503:Red
2453:FLC
2172:Red
2166:col
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2144:to
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1500:Red
901:--
842:--
726:--
599:--
346:to
245:to
2977:)
2962:)
2880:)
2876:·
2797:)
2786:}}
2782:{{
2759:,
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2662:GA
2653:)
2603:GA
2594:)
2586:.
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2478:)
2463:)
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2431:,
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2169:--
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292:→
288:→
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