User talk:Jnhmunro - Knowledge (XXG)

3157:, so I thought I would ask for clarification. I will write some more on the talk page, and I would be grateful for responses. I see "phonics" as a rather curious business: one meaning is something like the mapping from written symbols to speech, which sounds like linguistics, but in practice evidence suggests that the field of linguistics really does not talk about "phonics". The second meaning is from the field of education, meaning an approach to teaching (English) reading involving systematic teaching of how spoken words are built of consonants and vowels, and so on, as opposed to the other "method" of teaching called "whole language" or "look and say", which eschews any sort of systematic explanation in the belief (not obviously supported by evidence) that children do not need such explanation. This is all very vague, so in some sense you could say that "phonics" could be used to teach the reading of any language, if there is any element of systematic explanation. So I do not see any principled way to limit this to languages "using an alphabet". Why not a language with a syllabic writing system such as Japanese, or even a non-phonological writing such as Chinese, insofar as there are systematic pronunciation hints built into many characters. At the same time, in practice, 99.99% of references to "phonics" are about teaching English. Your (restored?) cite for Russian merely says that the policy is to spend time explaining how Russian words are built from consonants and vowels, with nothing specifically resembling "phonics". The Arabic text is a proposal for helping Arabic speakers with learning difficulties to "decode"(?) the Arabic alphabet, and the authors merely assert that "phonics" could help, but disarmingly say that their proposal needs testing in the field. Both references are rather tenuous, it seems to me. 3216:

and back vowels. There is no coherent distinction between reading 'venticinque' by seeing that it spells 'v-e-n-t-i-ci-n-qu-e' or looking at it and recognising 'venticinque' as a whole, because it of course spells 'v-e-n-t-i-ci-n-qu-e'. Compare 'fate' or 'rough', where we cannot actually say which letter even makes which sound. And I cannot see any principled way to claim that it is the use of an "alphabet" which determines whether or not "phonics" can be used. For example, in Japanese, presumably there will be children with reading difficulties, who learn あ(a), か(ka), and さ(sa), but cannot see that あかさか spells 'Akasaka' (even though you can, now). They need the same help as an Italian child who knows how to read 'c'(before 'i'), 'i', 'n', and so on, but cannot see that 'cinque' spells (five). (Then you can consider whether Korean hangul is an alphabet or not.) That sort of deals with my objection to the sentence about "using an alphabet".

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Portugal for example: the text is vague in the extreme, nothing specific at all about how reading is taught. My point basically is that in English, and in French (wild outliers in the global scheme of things, I think) there is a huge job caused by the absence of a simple direct mapping from letters to sounds, and "phonics" vs "whole language" is an educational debate about how to handle this job (it seems obvious that actually "whole language" is bogus). In other languages, there simply can be no such debate; Japanese is a particular example I know more about (my third son is a Japanese primary school teacher), in which beginning reading uses the syllabic

1406:. Sources that are not acceptable include those linked to the subject organisation company, press releases, YouTube, IMDB, social media and other sites that can be self-edited, blogs, websites of unknown or non-reliable provenance, and sites that are just reporting what the company organisation he claims or interviewing him its management. Your article was sourced only to the website itself, and can't establish notability on that basis. Even if it had proper refs, you are just telling us what it does, nothing to indicate why it was notable. No indication of how it's funded either 3183:

preparatory work is necessary whereby children are taught to orient themselves in the phonetic system of the Russian language. Students learn to define the sequence of sounds in a word and characterize each sound, such as vowel/consonant or hardness/softness of consonants. By acquiring the knowledge of the phonetic system at an early stage, it is believed that children become better familiarized with the skills of reading."

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The problem is that once separated into it own article, there is no comparison between the two (or more?) different sorts of phonics, and one learns nothing. (This is a very general WP problem: instead of an article illuminating the constrast between two alternative ideas, you get an article on each, so vague that they could be interchanged without anyone noticing.) The reference given to

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My reaction was also partly simple (genuine) disappointment. I could not understand any more about the "phonics" debate after reading the article than I could before. And I found the bit about the separate article for "synthetic phonics" for the English (adj. 'of England'; Scotland is separate) case.

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Q: John, is it possible to have the warnings removed from the "Synthetic phonics" page. I have cleaned it up, added references and added three countries for the "global outlook", so it should meet standards now. I will, however, add New Zealand and Canada very soon. I am just concerned that searchers

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system; you show the kids how to read each of the 50 characters, and they string them together. But in any of the cited languages which are alphabetic, Italian for example. there is an almost one-to-one correspondence between letters and sounds, plus some special rules about 'c' and 'g' before front

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I looked at the article again, and actually I see there is a similar debate in France, which is what you would expect. But looking at the other "countries": exactly half (9/18) are English-speaking. For the rest, overwhelmingly the actual connection to the "phonics" of "teaching English" is tenuous.

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With respect to using phonics to teach reading in the Russian language, the reference says "The method widely used now to teach reading was developed by the famous psychologist Daniil Elkonin in the 1960s. The method is based on the premise that before studying the letters of the Russian alphabet,

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Hi, John. I'm John too, and I decided when I was about 12 that I'd never name my son that. I was quite tired of looking to see who wasn't talking to me by that time. Ironically my only son is 8 now, and 52 years after I turned 12, John isn't nearly as common. Anyway....I've never used a custom

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Coming on this article, I think its essentially an essay devoted to proving a particular point of view. I've made further comments there. I'm no expert in this, but i think the entire set of articles would benefit from a more systematic approach. I think also it is not a good approach to

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The article starts out by making it look as though "phonics" is really a term in linguistics, rather than a much more parochial term in education as I believe. (In general, I don't think linguistics talks about phonics at all.) For example, an essay "Phonicsphobia" by Joyce Morris in

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Thanks again. It will take me awhile to digest and respond, but I will do so as soon as possible. (I have a full time job, a family and other volunteer activities.) I appreciate hearing things from your perspective. Hopefully it will enable me to improve the articles.

3247:). The last chapter is interestingly titled "English spelling", and is highly recommended if you have access to a copy. He distinguishes "logographic" writing like Chinese, and to a lesser extent English, with "phonographic" writing like Italian or Russian. 1315:. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images taken from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites or other printed material as a source of 3235:'Phonics' all methods and materials designed to develop initial literacy in English by highlighting its major spelling patterns, and by making explicit the relationships between speech sounds (phonemes) and graphic symbols (graphemes). 1416:

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I don't know if phonics is used to teach reading in Japanese or Chinese. I suspect reading is taught in these languages by memorization, but I welcome your opinion, especially if you can point me in the direction of a good

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signature and frankly fail to see any purpose for them, but if I recall correctly, one of the restrictions is it can't be disruptive or confusing. As we have an apparantly retired, but once quite active editor

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As I mentioned, I agree with your decision, so I will add relevant information to other articles. I have no COI relationships with any of these organizations or, for that matter, any educational organization.

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Yes, most of this article is about how phonics is used to teach reading in English. However, because phonics is used to teach reading in non-English speaking countries, there is a section for that -

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gives in two paragraphs more explanation than the entire WP article. I think the "phonics" article should outline the relevant distinction (and mention analytical phonics, "popular in Scotland").

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unnecessarily split articles, all of which will have the same POV problems. (I therefore redirected Systematic Phonics). It would be better to get the existing articles cleaned up first.

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Since the reference only proposes a method to use phonics to teach Arabic, and I don't have a good reference beyond that, I will remove that example.

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I think that would be a much better place to start. There is room for a short mention of similar issues in teaching reading in some languages.

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I'm glad to see that you added your comment to the Synthetic phonics talk page. I have moved your comment to a

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Thank you John. I was unaware of this, so I have added initials to my signature. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Mustn't go on. Also (re)read much of Geoffrey Sampson's excellent book "Writing systems" (microreview

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