Knowledge (XXG)

User talk:Peteris Cedrins

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Kiev or Smolensk could be "returned" to Poland, Warsaw could be "returned" to Russia, Gdansk to Germany and Bretagne to the UK. Similarly, talking about the lack of plebiscite, is like talking about the lack of multiparty democracy. It is a tautology to raise this in every USSR-reraled article. Stuff like "can't visit graves" looked strange in your version because it is not clear what exactly the problem is as I explained in the edit summary. I only corrected the obvious things and it will take a more knowledgeable editor to do more. Please, no flames. --
1027: 248:(formerly was known as "Lost territories of the Baltic States", but was recently renamed; some users seems to disagree with that renaming). Recent edits as well were accused of POV, and, in fact, article was disputed for a long time already. There are currently no Latvian contributors to that article, therefore your opinion is much needed (and it seems you already contributed much to 320:
would like me to be frank, the fact is that you seem to function almost as a tag team -- Ghirlandajo comes in waving his revert bludgeon, and then you drift in all cool and collected to suggest something between his wild and insupportable accusations and what's in the article, offering a middle ground to water down inescapable fact (this is my experience with both the
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revert or delete. The actual facts on the annexation come from Soviet archives and not Latvian documents. Not to oversimplify, but this is not a Russian vs. Latvian debate, and if "annexation" gets replaced by "liberation," I am not the one biased towards a POV. Equating a victim with a murderer does not lead to NPOV. Vsego khoroshego, --
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I will not be contributing to Knowledge (XXG) in the near future, as I simply do not have the time (or inclination) to do battle with the petty propaganda of fake personae, an activity far removed from editing an encyclopedia. Between being accused of creating sock puppets (by someone who, unlike me,
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Hello again,Pēteris. I changed that in the meantime, Thank you. As well for your explications and the infos on your plans. I am not a scholar and therefor, the translation of texts missing in German is a good niche for me to be useful though I don't feel fit to develop any articles of depth myself or
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sveiki! I moved this to your talk, since I have no intention to contribute significantly to this topic. I supplied some edit summaries with my corrections. Basically, the problem is that the article is one-sided towards the Latvian POV on the dispute. It is not your fault since you base your writings
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article and this one). A kind of "bad cop, good cop" routine. It is no wonder that a good part of the Eastern Europe "editorial staff" consists of raving nationalists, chauvinists, and apologists having at it -- personally, I think the sort of environment being created by editors like Ghirlandajo is
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This article is now under point-by-point review. The controversy of BHHRG is reflected already in the Knowledge (XXG) article, however I have not seen anyone questioning Almond's scholarly works (books and articles). Is your remark above referring to Mark Almond's books and articles, or only to his
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If specifically Russia-related, I may. There are, however, notice boards for Québec and Wales, though neither is a nation-state like the Baltics are. A lot of boards overlap, so those interested in the Baltics can visit the Baltic board, whatever their main interest and even if the articles regard
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I mean, for instance, that "good Ghirlandajo, bad Ghirlandajo" comment. I've only seen the "bad Ghirlandajo" and it's just not very inspiring to participate if people run around with nothing but the intention to wreck. I do not see you telling Ghirlandajo that his behavior is inappropriate. If you
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article, therefore I guess you are interested in the topic). It would be nice if you would add that article to your watchlist and continue helping to improve it until a decition will be reached about its future (there is currently a poll about it in the article's talk page). I hope together we all
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I further explained the graves, trying to clarify -- it is a priority for the actual victims (you must know how Balts and Slavs are about graves), and the case is bilateral -- the trouble is that they live outside the border zone, many in the town of Balvi (still in the former Abrene district, but
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There is no doubt that it was annexation. I did not insert "liberation" and have no intention to do it. My problem, for example, is with using "return to Latvia", because every piece of land in Europe can be transferred to a number of countries and this could be called "return". Under this logic,
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My sources are actually wide-ranging. Loeber, for instance, is a German expert in international law, arguing that the annexation is a clear-cut violation of international law, and I did not make it as clear-cut in my article only because I know that certain persons would doubtless come around to
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I will reply to your message at the article's talk. But I have an unrelated to the article question to your note. You wrote that after reading my talk page you "know that you are not the only editor who takes this view". I just don't get what you meant by that. Not that it is important for the
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I appreciate your interventions in Transnistria related articles. There are some editors, who constantly delete info which is not liked by Transnistrian (Russian) authorities. Mauco is working full-time on this, others only part-time. Please be bold and put info again in the articles, if they
212:. He removes references to Karlis Ulmanis as President of Latvia and states that Ulmanis was a politician, and never President. I, on the other hand, insist that, while Ulmanis became President illegally, he was President nonetheless and is considered such by Latvian history sources as well. 699:. I'll be happy to help all of you out here, but first I've left an important message on that mediation page which requires your response. I would also appreciate it if you could watchlist that page so that we may facilitate discussion and communication. I look forward to working with you! 49:, Jeune France, etc. Some books and articles in English use "young" for the Lettophiles, others "new" -- I've never tried to count to see which is the most popular, but I think a redirect from "New Latvians" will do... though you are definitely right that it's a hard decision to make. -- 820:), I do not think I want to hang about this corner of the "community" at the moment -- an almost stereotypically "Eastern European" corner where hateful disinformation is given increasing weight and serious debate has very nearly wiki-evaporated. I can be reached through 121:
Privet! You made a note to my rewrite that "the article still needs much revision." What do you have in mind? I plan to add more information on the international law aspect, and will add references), but I would be interested to know what you think the article needs.
41:," and it was first applied to the Lettophiles by the Baltic Germans, in German (it translates to "young," not new, in German -- in Latvian, as you know, it could be either). Also, many nations have a similar term for (similar or very different) movements -- 403:
I'll have an eye on you and your articles and will continue to make use of it for translations, leaving it to others to polish my translations if needed. The German wikipedia is still quite free of POV-Discussion in the sort, I've seen on the English one,
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outside the zone where one can get cross-border privileges, etc.). I do not desire to flame you, and I realize that you try to be reasonable (I went through your some of your controversies!). Your critique does not stand up so far though, sorry -- Poland
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Hello Peteris, I started recently to translate a few articles, missing in the German wikipedia, from the English one. I'm not a professional translator and would be glad, if my work was only half as valuable as your's on several of these. Those include
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is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.
27:. The term jaunlatvieši is derived from jauns as in new, not jauns as in young. The key thing about them, as you may remember, was that they considered themselves Latvians, after the German rule and assimilation. Would you agree with that? 444:
Looks right to me, but to be extra sure -- I can contact a leading professional in the copyright field here. But please do tell me what exactly you mean by "copies of the Latvian hymn" (source, form, etc.), though. Regards,
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Thanks -- hmm. Is there any way around this that you know of? It's a very valuable link in the context, since it covers the issues in a way that illuminates them from various angles, as the PCTVL links do not.
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One rather trivial note: "Rainis" the nom-de-plume is by itself; though it is sometimes wrongly given as "Jānis Rainis," it should really be written without the given name, the pseudonym for Jānis Pliekšāns.
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Again no specialist on this subject, I would agree. German copyright laws give works to the public domain 70 years after the death of the author, in this case the cartographer, which can be assumed by now.
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on the Latvian sources. I will ask some Russian editors that I know to have knowledge of the subject to look at it. I corrected only what seemed obvious to me. See my summaries for the reasons. Regards, --
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Hello Peteris, I'm afraid the link to EHCR judgement of 2006 is not persistent, since there's a session-id involved, your id didn't work today and mine probably won't last much longer. Best regards, --
1051:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 182:
it was annexed to Russia. Your logic is not my logic! Yes, much territory moved and many people moved (many into graves), but the law is the law -- international law is maybe POV? --
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Latvians" seem to be written by those unfamilar with the origin of the term. So I urge that we stay with "young" and will make a redirect (if I can remember how to do that...). --
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I will notify you now by the way that I am leaving to Frankfurt; I won't be on Knowledge (XXG) for long. Please don't forget to watch that article during the time. Good luck! :)
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Because I can't resist remarking upon some of the debates re articles I think are vital, I'll be around now and then. If you want a quick response, though, please e-mail me at
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Interesting. A redirect is certainly a good decision, but I guess I'll ask some Latvian linguists for their opinion on whether jauns is used as new or young in the context.
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Regarding 1905 -- as a librarian, can you confirm that maps in Transehe-Roseneck's Die Lettische Revolution (Berlin: Georg Reimer, 1906) would be in the public domain?
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and Almond, the chairman of a group that has defended pretty much every pro-Russian dictator and a couple of strongmen in Africa, will give testimony about arms sales
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that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at
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being an example. On the other hand I've come across some tendency to overrate the German role for the development of the region and the first national awakening.
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the Baltics when they were part of the Russian Empire or occupied by the USSR. I would rather write and edit than spend so much time categorizing and listing. --
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I notice that you author most of the articles announced at the Baltic board. Would you consider cross-posting whatever articles you consider relevant also to
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is the correct copyright law of Latvia. If so, I wish to upload copies of the Latvian hymn onto Knowledge (XXG) (unless you wish to do that yourself). Thanks.
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a border agreement with Russia, etc., and there is a difference between satellites and Soviet "republics." Legality ought to have a place in an encyclopedia.
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and ask him to clarify the issue and close the case. Anyhow, you quitting Knowledge (XXG) is exactly what people like Mauco want. Don't make them happy!--
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When searching around on that page. I found another link at the bottom of the "Notice"-tab. I am not sure, but that may last. Applied it. Best regards --
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to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. –
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activity through BHHRG? If the former, can you, please, indicate me some links that I can use to understand his scholarly work. Thank you very much.:
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Hi, Thank you for your contribusions to the discussion on issues regarding Moldova and Romania. In the Talk: Transnistria you wrote:
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there is a paragraph with true and sourced info which is permanently reverted. Your opinion on this article will be appreciated.--
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I will keep you informed of major changes and new articles, and you might look at the new Latvia portal and sign the guestbook!
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Thank you. Please continue to watch that article and its discussion so that the final solution would be as neutral as possible.
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dissapear. Maybe you will want to vote on talk page Transnistria, about the links which should be included in the article--
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I agree that it's a difficult question, but I don't agree to a move or renaming because the name derives from the German "
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describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to
364:. I noticed however that there is an article that could go the other way, provided you or somebody else is interested. 325:
enough to drive anybody interested in collaborating on serious, balanced articles away, and am considering quitting. --
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Community_sanction_noticeboard#Proposed_community_ban_for_sockpupeteer_William_Mauco
73:"le mouvement des Jeunes Lettons," "Grupo de los Jóvenes Letones de la Universidad de Dorpat," "ifjú lettek mozgalma," 208:
Sveiki again! I'd like to ask for your opinion on one matter. There has been an editing dispute now between me and
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Regarding the page with Mauco's accusations which was not closed and clarify for long time, I suggest you contact
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I and others just checked numerous serious sources in a few languages, and almost all of them give the term as "
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Yes, and I've also checked around today and "young" indeed seems to be the correct usage. Nav par ko!
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to which you are a party has been accepted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage,
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Hi Peteris. As you are Latvian I suppose you speak Russian. Please join our discussion in
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There are only seven days for everyone to agree, so please check as soon as possible.
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No, the latter, sorry -- I'm referring to his activity through the BHHRG only. --
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Hello. I would like to inform you that there is an ongoing discussion at article
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to open new mediation cases. If you have questions about this bot, please
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describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
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is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Knowledge (XXG)
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Knowledge (XXG):Requests for mediation/Transnistrian referendum, 2006
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If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review
919:. Do I have your permission to remove the "accuracy" tag? — 263:
I added some comments to the talk page of the article. --
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I think that the article should be moved and renamed to
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is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the
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Hi, Pēteris. I think you would like to take a look at
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which is the mediator in the still-open dispute from
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I'd appreciate it if you would see the discussion at
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This message delivered: 12:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
970:You appear to be eligible to vote in the current 240:Please take part in the improval of this article 93:Ah -- you'd already made a redirect. Paldies! -- 812:wildly twisted renaming of an article I began, 354:de:Lettische Sozialdemokratische Arbeiterpartei 899:http://en.wikipedia.org/Anti-Russian_sentiment 8: 915:I've been slowly cleaning up the article on 668:, an automated bot account operated by the 253:will be able to make that article neutral. 587: 674:contact the Mediation Committee directly 379:'s talk page ("Stučka, Übersetzungen"). 462:Portal:Russia/New article announcements 395:even to do original research on my own. 246:Territorial claims of the Baltic States 1033:Hello, Peteris Cedrins. Voting in the 938:A file that you uploaded or altered, 934:File:IMG 3104.JPG listed for deletion 7: 1036:2016 Arbitration Committee elections 816:but with extreme prejudice (see the 695:Hello! This message is in regard to 1049:Knowledge (XXG) arbitration process 368:, missing in English. Best regards 944:Knowledge (XXG):Files for deletion 75:etc.). The only sources that use " 14: 996:review the candidates' statements 804:is evasive about his identity -- 785:A group of comrades still active. 193:This discussion has been moved to 1025: 591: 875:in addition to talking here. -- 1002:. For the Election committee, 972:Arbitration Committee election 963:ArbCom elections are now open! 840:Transnistrian referendum, 2006 781:Occupation of Latvia 1940-1945 544:Transnistrian referendum, 2006 1: 1086:22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC) 1012:12:54, 23 November 2015 (UTC) 773:02:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 764:00:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC) 754:23:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC) 294:09:54, 22 December 2005 (UTC) 277:08:41, 21 December 2005 (UTC) 268:16:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC) 258:10:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 187:17:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC) 164:17:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC) 151:16:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC) 138:16:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC) 127:13:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC) 108:14:41, 28 November 2005 (UTC) 98:02:00, 28 November 2005 (UTC) 84:01:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC) 63:22:52, 27 November 2005 (UTC) 54:22:48, 27 November 2005 (UTC) 32:22:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC) 957:13:28, 18 October 2011 (UTC) 829:14:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC) 794:14:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC) 732:14:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC) 714:00:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC) 683: 626:For the Mediation Committee, 450:05:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC) 439:03:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC) 384:11:53, 28 January 2006 (UTC) 339:Peteris Stucka, Translations 330:06:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 314:05:46, 19 January 2006 (UTC) 234:17:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC) 224:13:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC) 178:Abrene belongs to Latvia -- 1070:and submit your choices on 998:and submit your choices on 860:07:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC) 847:21:46, 1 January 2007 (UTC) 551:17:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC) 535:11:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC) 1103: 1078:MediaWiki message delivery 1068:the candidates' statements 1004:MediaWiki message delivery 929:10:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC) 906:17:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC) 818:Baltic States notice board 664:This message delivered by 517:07:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC) 508:17:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC) 497:08:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC) 429:Hello. I was wondering if 880:08:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC) 572:Knowledge (XXG):Mediation 480:14:03, 4 March 2006 (UTC) 469:08:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC) 562:has been filed with the 217:User talk:69.142.194.250 893:Anti-Russian sentiment 768:Ok, Thank you anyway.: 1045:Arbitration Committee 1018:ArbCom Elections 2016 976:Arbitration Committee 942:, has been listed at 855:Thank you, Marius. -- 740:Request for sourse(s) 602:Request for Mediation 584:Request for Mediation 560:request for mediation 199:and continues there. 980:arbitration process 670:Mediation Committee 564:Mediation Committee 362:de:Krisjanis Barons 210:User:69.142.194.250 1061:arbitration policy 1020:: Voting now open! 992:arbitration policy 868:Coming back, kinda 814:without discussion 419:de:Benutzer:gf1961 377:de:Benutzer:gf1961 370:de:Benutzer:gf1961 309:article though. -- 304:Russians in Latvia 196:Talk:Abrene region 946:. Please see the 940:File:IMG 3104.JPG 725:Talk:Transnistria 712: 682: 681: 677: 641: 437: 1094: 1029: 709: 703: 663: 645: 643: 639: 634: 595: 588: 436: 425:Latvia Copyright 350:de:Neue Strömung 1102: 1101: 1097: 1096: 1095: 1093: 1092: 1091: 1090: 1089: 1073:the voting page 1030: 1022: 1000:the voting page 966: 936: 913: 895: 877:Pēteris Cedriņš 870: 857:Pēteris Cedriņš 836:User:Flcelloguy 826:Pēteris Cedriņš 801: 783: 761:Pēteris Cedriņš 742: 721: 707: 693: 688: 678: 637: 630: 628: 586: 527: 505:Pēteris Cedriņš 490: 487:Tatjana Ždanoka 477:Pēteris Cedriņš 458: 447:Pēteris Cedriņš 427: 381:Pēteris Cedriņš 366:de:Peter Stucka 358:de:Janis Rainis 341: 327:Pēteris Cedriņš 322:Abrene district 306: 265:Pēteris Cedriņš 250:Abrene district 242: 231:Pēteris Cedriņš 206: 184:Pēteris Cedriņš 148:Pēteris Cedriņš 124:Pēteris Cedriņš 118: 95:Pēteris Cedriņš 81:Pēteris Cedriņš 51:Pēteris Cedriņš 21: 12: 11: 5: 1100: 1098: 1031: 1024: 1023: 1021: 1015: 969: 965: 960: 935: 932: 912: 909: 894: 891: 889: 869: 866: 865: 864: 863: 862: 850: 849: 800: 797: 782: 779: 778: 777: 776: 775: 741: 738: 736: 720: 717: 692: 689: 680: 679: 662: 661: 660: 659: 658: 657: 656: 655: 654: 653: 652: 651: 650: 649: 648: 647: 646: 598: 596: 585: 582: 580: 556: 555: 554: 553: 526: 523: 522: 521: 520: 519: 489: 484: 483: 482: 457: 454: 453: 452: 434:User:Zscout370 426: 423: 422: 421: 410: 409: 397: 396: 387: 386: 340: 337: 335: 333: 332: 305: 302: 301: 300: 299: 298: 297: 296: 282: 281: 280: 279: 241: 238: 237: 236: 205: 204:Karlis Ulmanis 202: 190: 189: 156: 155: 154: 153: 130: 129: 117: 112: 111: 110: 91: 90: 89: 88: 87: 86: 20: 18:Young Latvians 15: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 1099: 1088: 1087: 1083: 1079: 1075: 1074: 1069: 1064: 1062: 1058: 1054: 1050: 1046: 1041: 1038: 1037: 1028: 1019: 1016: 1014: 1013: 1009: 1005: 1001: 997: 993: 989: 985: 981: 977: 973: 964: 961: 959: 958: 955: 951: 950: 945: 941: 933: 931: 930: 926: 922: 918: 910: 908: 907: 904: 900: 892: 890: 887: 886: 882: 881: 878: 874: 867: 861: 858: 854: 853: 852: 851: 848: 845: 841: 837: 833: 832: 831: 830: 827: 823: 819: 815: 811: 810:Ghirlandajo's 807: 798: 796: 795: 792: 788: 780: 774: 771: 767: 766: 765: 762: 758: 757: 756: 755: 752: 747: 739: 737: 734: 733: 730: 726: 718: 716: 715: 710: 702: 698: 690: 686: 675: 671: 667: 644: 635: 633: 627: 624: 623: 622: 621: 620: 619: 618: 617: 616: 615: 614: 613: 612: 611: 610: 609: 607: 603: 599: 597: 594: 590: 589: 583: 581: 578: 577: 573: 569: 565: 561: 552: 549: 545: 541: 540: 539: 538: 537: 536: 533: 524: 518: 515: 511: 510: 509: 506: 501: 500: 499: 498: 495: 488: 485: 481: 478: 473: 472: 471: 470: 467: 463: 455: 451: 448: 443: 442: 441: 440: 435: 431: 424: 420: 415: 414: 413: 407: 402: 401: 400: 393: 392: 391: 385: 382: 378: 375:Responded on 374: 373: 372: 371: 367: 363: 359: 355: 351: 347: 346:de:Jungletten 338: 336: 331: 328: 323: 318: 317: 316: 315: 312: 303: 295: 292: 288: 287: 286: 285: 284: 283: 278: 275: 271: 270: 269: 266: 262: 261: 260: 259: 256: 251: 247: 239: 235: 232: 228: 227: 226: 225: 222: 218: 213: 211: 203: 201: 200: 197: 194: 188: 185: 181: 177: 173: 168: 167: 166: 165: 162: 152: 149: 144: 143: 142: 141: 140: 139: 136: 128: 125: 120: 119: 116: 115:Abrene region 113: 109: 106: 102: 101: 100: 99: 96: 85: 82: 78: 74: 70: 66: 65: 64: 61: 57: 56: 55: 52: 48: 44: 40: 39:Young Germany 36: 35: 34: 33: 30: 26: 19: 16: 1071: 1065: 1042: 1034: 1032: 967: 948: 937: 917:Pērkonkrusts 914: 911:Pērkonkrusts 903:80.235.53.82 896: 888: 883: 871: 813: 802: 784: 745: 743: 735: 722: 719:Transnistria 694: 684: 666:MediationBot 631: 625: 579: 575: 557: 528: 525:Transnistria 491: 464:? Thanks, -- 459: 456:Baltic board 428: 411: 398: 388: 342: 334: 307: 243: 214: 207: 198: 192: 191: 179: 175: 171: 157: 131: 92: 76: 72: 68: 43:Young Poland 25:New Latvians 22: 71:Latvians" ( 47:Young Turks 1057:topic bans 988:topic bans 949:discussion 799:Wikibreak! 701:Flcelloguy 291:Kaiser 747 274:Kaiser 747 255:Kaiser 747 1053:site bans 984:site bans 901:. Thanks. 691:Mediation 229:Lūdzu! -- 180:de facto, 787:Constanz 176:De jure, 954:Quadell 921:Zalktis 844:MariusM 822:my blog 729:MariusM 548:MariusM 532:MariusM 974:. The 808:) and 632:Essjay 514:Gf1961 494:Gf1961 406:Abrene 221:Solver 105:Solver 60:Solver 29:Solver 806:Mauco 708:note? 466:Irpen 311:Irpen 161:Irpen 135:Irpen 69:Young 1082:talk 1043:The 1008:talk 925:talk 824:. -- 791:Talk 770:Dc76 751:Dc76 640:Talk 968:Hi, 542:On 172:has 77:New 1084:) 1076:. 1055:, 1010:) 986:, 927:) 789:- 706:A 608:. 600:A 574:. 558:A 503:-- 417:-- 360:, 356:, 352:, 348:, 122:-- 45:, 1080:( 1006:( 923:( 711:) 704:( 687:. 676:. 642:) 638:(

Index

Young Latvians
New Latvians
Solver
22:12, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Young Germany
Young Poland
Young Turks
Pēteris Cedriņš
22:48, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Solver
22:52, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Pēteris Cedriņš
01:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Pēteris Cedriņš
02:00, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Solver
14:41, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Abrene region
Pēteris Cedriņš
13:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Irpen
16:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Pēteris Cedriņš
16:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Irpen
17:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Pēteris Cedriņš
17:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Talk:Abrene region
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