Knowledge (XXG)

User talk:Renamed user b9gv3t7jw0

Source đź“ť

555:
autism rights advocates,” which is clearly true and backed up by reliable sources. I feel that this is a much more solid and consistent framing of controversies surrounding ABA. As for why I have not been swayed by the messages on the talk page, A number of their sources talk about private equity firms, which is less a controversy about ABA itself and more involving coverage of mental health issues in general. Also I would hesitate to state that researchers raising issues with ABA as “controversy” in the sense that disputes in academia happen all the time on nearly every subject. Scholarly debate is natural for almost any subject so insisting that it be included in the lead seems pedantic and a bit misleading. In fact, some of the research articles appear to be in response to other scholars arguing in favor of ABA, such as the Sandoval-Norton piece, so there is clearly a back-and-forth debate in this sphere rather than universal repudiation, at this point. Something “controversial” would usually extend outside scholarly articles which the average person does not have access or would be privy to. I don’t see how the article is done a disservice by stating that ABA is controversial among autistic rights advocates. Not only is it a fact, but it also describes the source of the overwhelming majority of controversies and dialogue surrounding ABA. There are one or two opinion articles cited that include usually one or two non-autistic individuals, but they mainly resort to covering the concerns of autistic individuals and their concerns. The Controversies section does not cover any group that ABA is controversial with outside of autistic rights advocates and a few select researchers. If I recall I was not the only one who took the position that evidence for controversy “outside” the autism rights movement was weak, but even if there were sources that talked at length about non-autistic opposition movements against ABA, the fact remains that it would probably be undue in several aspects to mention it in the lead. One of the tenets that WP:UNDUE states is that the “prominence of placement” of something in an article can make it a violation of the undue weight, and I simply cannot say that the lead should state that controversy “outside” the autistic community exists in a notable fashion when it seems to be a very small proportion compared to ABA detractors who are within the autistic community. If we can find a number of outside groups, NGOs, governments, prominent non-autistic figures taking positions on ABA, then perhaps I can see the view that would indicate that there is mass controversy outside the autistic rights movement. I think as it stands, simply stating “especially the autistic rights movement” should be the way forward, as it is clearly backed up by most reliable sources and it is the best summary of the contents of the article currently. Also, one user on Project Med brought up the point that attempting to mention that it is even controversial among the autistic “community” would probably violate
513:
concerns of the autistic community rather than mass movements against ABA outside the autistic community. I pointed this out numerous times in the talk page, it was not my intention to come across like I was disregarding them, but I felt that the articles did not really document substantial controversy outside the autism rights movement. For instance, Conversion therapy is a widely known controversial issue that has had numerous NGOs, governments, and prominent notable figures speak out against it, while ABA has not had any of that, especially to that extent. Saying that it is controversial outside the autistic rights movement would simply mislead the reader into thinking that such an opinion on ABA is more universal than it actually is, in my view. Regardless, stating that it is controversial outside the autistic rights movement, on top of being largely unsubstantiated, is unacceptable to be in the lead simply for the fact that it is not something discussed further in the body. Also, I have also states how the lead is also used to establish context, not just summarize points, and I feel there should be some elaboration upon the idea that ABA has been used in some instances in areas outside of autism. ABA is a psychological intervention, as stated by the article, so it would definitely serve a purpose to have a sourced list of applications in the lead. I am not sure where this objection is coming from. Also, applications outside are discussed at a certain place in the body, in the same spot where ATC added new sources, and in fact it was Oolong who attempted to remove that passage as well. This was one of my points of contention, in the idea that the article was becoming too slanted. Now as you pointed out, the list as it had been in the article was unacceptable due to the source ir relied on, but I feel that if we can find another source perhaps it can be included again in some form. This is just my proposal. Again I hope to not come across as obstinate! But I feel I owe you at least some of my perspective, especially going into DRN considering my lack of experience with that area of Knowledge (XXG).
410:
rights movement, and nearly every major organization that has opined on the topic deals with autism. The article does not, outside of research done by non-autistic researchers, mention at any notable length, figures, governments, and organizations outside the Austism Rights Movement on this controversy. Some organizations have opined on things like shock collars, but these are not uses exclusively in ABA practices and opposition to them is universal with regards to their application. So that is my rationale for “mainly.” To be honest, I have been looking to disengage with this article for some time but cannot seem to find an easy way out. I suggested a DRN but if one is made I do not think I would be apt to engage in it simply due to my desire for some peace of mind. I would hope more users can provide alternative perspective.
474:
remove it, then the idea that ABA is controversial “outside the autistic rights movement” should definitely not belong, as not only os the original sources pretty weak (compared to the myriad of sources for something universally controversial like Conversion Therapy), but also due to the fact that controversies with ABA in the article outside of journal articles are almost exclusively written by autism advocacy groups in the body. This is my view. I would feel for ABA applications if we can find a better source such as a textbook or something similar that would do much to alleviate the situation. I have been told that Knowledge (XXG) provides free access but I am kind of a geezer trying to navigate this so hopefully the DRN will bring a more technologically competent user :O
755: 271: 77: 699: 563:. My main concern is that with such a tense topic that draws a lot of interest among certain parties, I am cautious against such sweeping language that may slant the article towards giving the wrong impression around the debate of this subject. I agree that extra information could be added to the article regarding applications in a way that would be satisfactory to most editors. 361: 23: 660: 540:
general, is unsubstantiated at all, so discussion of this controversy seems to belong in the lead to me. For applications of ABA, perhaps another source could be found and the different applications could be elaborated on further in the body, and then sourced applications could be mentioned in the lead, but this remains to be seen for now.
441:
sources do mention such a majority, I think the word "especially" is best, as it isn't arguable, and it doesn't imply anything about being the "most important" or "majority" that sources don't support. Then again I may be confused so feel free to change it back if you disagree, but yeah that's just what I think.
554:
Just a notice that I am not arguing to remove the fact that it is controversial in certain spheres from the lead entirely, I just think that there is an incredibly weak foundation to say “outside the autistic community,” when the lead as it currently states, has it as “controversial, especially among
539:
discusses. From skimming through the articles, I think there is reason to believe that controversy also exists among researchers, family members, and others. Considering these things, I don't think ABA being controversial outside the autistic rights movement, or even outside the autistic community in
473:
Also I feel that it is wrong to state that a list of applications of ABA should not belong in the lead simply because not every single application is discussed in detail. Leads should provide context and it is important to note to people that ABA is used in other areas outside of autism. If we are to
455:
I decided to revert it. While I think “mainly” is a fine word to use in the context, it is kind of a finicky critique regardless and the word “especially” is also adequate. Mainly (look!) I do not want to be the cause of yet another series of discourses surrounding this article, so “let it be” is the
440:
That's all right! I feel that "especially" is better because sources should probably actually say or show that the majority of the controversy itself is among autism rights movement members, not just originating from within said movement, if we're to use the word "mainly". Unless I'm mistaken and the
878:
I did not claim that sex is the same as gender, or at least that's not what I meant. I am non-binary myself and I realize that they are different things. I meant that the terms "female" and "male" can refer to gender identities, as well as being used for the dyadic sexes, though those sexes are more
424:
For the sake of preserving some senae of order I reverted it as I feel “especially” can be seen as adequate, though I would like your perspective on this matter still. Sorry again if things have been getting testy, had I known this discourse would go on for so long perhaps I might have kept my nose
584:
I should state that the above is not am attempt to be antagonistic! Please do not get me wrong! I just feel it would be useful to explain my perspective a bit more clearly. The talk page devolved in a direction that was obviously unhelpful so I feel that I warrant an explanation on my positions to
493:
is "an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents", not merely a place to collect aspects of the subject that are barely covered further in the body. There are in fact numerous sources supporting the fact that ABA is controversial outside the autistic rights movement,
409:
Hello! I wanted to discuss the use of the word “mainly” for the ABA article. I feel that if “mainly” means “more than anything else,” then I feel that perfectly applies to ABA controversies as it is clear that the vast majority of sources indicate that manor controversy is reserved for the autism
512:
The evidence for ABA being controversial outside the autistic rights movement is very weak in my view, and I feel that because of that it would be somewhat problematic to pht in a place like the lead. From my reading of those sources, they discuss something along the lines of listening to the
670:
regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution.
607:
Perhaps inevitably, I have now initiated formal Wikipedian dispute resolution. I've named you in it as a participant; I hope this doesn't cause you any trouble. Let's hope this brings us somewhere closer to achieving consensus on this perennially contentious topic!
800: 316: 847:
Sex is a biological trait, that can be somewhat modified by taking hormones. Gender is a social construct and a role assignment. Gender is often assigned based on sex, but gender is not the same thing as sex.
784:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 300:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose 844:, your claim that sex is the same as gender is incorrect. In the academic discourse these are not the same, and it continues to cause issues when people use these terms to mean the same thing. 769: 285: 231: 494:
which Oolong has already shown on the ABA talk page. It appears that ATC has added additional sources regarding the applications of ABA. These matters may be something to discuss at
556: 114: 229:! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the 895:
genders on the LGBTQIA+ Wiki, a trusted source in the community; the terms "female" and "male" are used to refer to the binary genders, even within the non-binary community.
127: 175: 136:
Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit
527:
I don't agree that the evidence for ABA being controversial outside of the autistic rights movement is weak, considering the numerous sources Oolong provided in
623:
No problem at all! I have decided to participate and posted a summary to the best of my ability, I hope I got everything right; it is my first time doing this.
219: 667: 559:, which is why the blogs Oolong wanted to cite were opposed by a number of users. In my queries at Project Med, I found a user who put it like this: 168: 101: 495: 384: 150:
If you now believe the draft cannot meet Knowledge (XXG)'s standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to
823: 373: 339: 134:
Thanks for creating this draft however it seems that the subject doesn't meet the notability standard for a biography on Knowledge (XXG).
864: 720:
In accordance with our policy that Knowledge (XXG) is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia
585:
other users involved. Frankly the idea of this going on is very tense to me! I hope I did not contribute to any stress on your part.
83: 64: 31: 107: 195: 119: 819: 335: 793: 309: 245:, a friendly space on Knowledge (XXG) where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! 123: 805: 321: 532: 536: 368:, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months 130:
when addressing this issue). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Knowledge (XXG).
167:
If you do not make any further changes to your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and
781: 297: 861: 868: 528: 86:
has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by MurielMary was:
461: 89: 724:, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can 721: 714: 692: 365: 353: 151: 144: 68: 49: 900: 628: 590: 568: 545: 518: 503: 479: 446: 430: 415: 241: 896: 841: 624: 541: 499: 442: 395: 250: 205: 763: 279: 45: 777: 728:. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it. 710: 377: 293: 725: 122:). Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see 789: 490: 305: 164:" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit. 812: 681: 642: 613: 586: 564: 514: 475: 457: 426: 411: 328: 856: 792:, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The 785: 706: 369: 308:, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The 301: 904: 872: 827: 742: 685: 646: 632: 617: 594: 572: 549: 522: 507: 483: 465: 450: 434: 419: 399: 391: 343: 254: 246: 209: 201: 57: 44:—because it did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the 158: 560: 53: 27: 754: 270: 218: 677: 638: 609: 76: 533:
this History of the Human Sciences article that discusses the controversies
862:
https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/gender-and-health
705:
Hello, HaiFire3344. It has been over six months since you last edited the
557:
Knowledge (XXG):Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles#Careful language
364:
Hello, HaiFire3344. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that
733: 796:
describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
360: 312:
describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
22: 851: 773:
are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
289:
are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
41: 659: 239:
questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the
880: 604:
Hi, thanks for your input on the ABA page, it's been really helpful.
884: 731:
Thanks for your submission to Knowledge (XXG), and happy editing.
888: 666:
This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the
892: 809:. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add 325:. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add 799:
If you wish to participate in the 2023 election, please review
767:
is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 11 December 2023. All
315:
If you wish to participate in the 2022 election, please review
283:
is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 12 December 2022. All
143:
If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to
48:. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the 196:
Knowledge (XXG)'s real-time chat help from experienced editors
178:
associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the
697: 658: 75: 96:
coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in
88:
This submission's references do not show that the subject
154:, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add " 857:
https://www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/sex-and-gender
780:
is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the
296:
is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the
188: 180: 36: 561:
https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:MobileDiff/1140346667
637:
Cheers! Mine too. It looks accurate enough to me. :)
147:
and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
674:
Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you!
174:
If you need any assistance, or have experienced any
655:
Notice of Dispute resolution noticeboard discussion
390:Thank you for your submission to Knowledge (XXG). 30:. I wanted to let you know that I reverted one of 668:Knowledge (XXG):Dispute resolution noticeboard 383:If the page has already been deleted, you can 8: 372:, so if you wish to retain the page, please 887:, respectively. See the articles about the 90:qualifies for a Knowledge (XXG) article 120:guidelines on the notability of people 7: 852:https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html 836:Non-binary sex and gender conflation 764:2023 Arbitration Committee elections 380:that it be moved to your userspace. 280:2022 Arbitration Committee elections 782:Knowledge (XXG) arbitration process 748:ArbCom 2023 Elections voter message 537:Applied behavior analysis#Criticism 387:so you can continue working on it. 298:Knowledge (XXG) arbitration process 264:ArbCom 2022 Elections voter message 132:The comment the reviewer left was: 82:Your recent article submission to 14: 753: 535:, and literally everything that 359: 269: 217: 21: 803:and submit your choices on the 319:and submit your choices on the 232:Articles for creation help desk 182:Articles for creation help desk 1: 828:00:54, 28 November 2023 (UTC) 686:15:04, 21 February 2023 (UTC) 647:08:53, 24 February 2023 (UTC) 633:00:15, 22 February 2023 (UTC) 618:15:04, 21 February 2023 (UTC) 595:03:25, 25 February 2023 (UTC) 573:02:00, 25 February 2023 (UTC) 550:04:08, 25 February 2023 (UTC) 523:22:22, 24 February 2023 (UTC) 508:03:01, 25 February 2023 (UTC) 484:19:31, 24 February 2023 (UTC) 466:22:13, 20 February 2023 (UTC) 451:21:34, 20 February 2023 (UTC) 435:21:06, 20 February 2023 (UTC) 420:21:03, 20 February 2023 (UTC) 344:01:56, 29 November 2022 (UTC) 138:after they have been resolved 905:02:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC) 873:02:51, 10 January 2024 (UTC) 400:02:01, 2 February 2023 (UTC) 529:this reply on the talk page 92:—that is, they do not show 921: 820:MediaWiki message delivery 336:MediaWiki message delivery 743:01:59, 2 March 2023 (UTC) 255:13:13, 19 July 2022 (UTC) 210:13:13, 19 July 2022 (UTC) 32:your recent contributions 817:to your user talk page. 333:to your user talk page. 118:of the subject (see the 58:17:05, 16 May 2022 (UTC) 425:out of it! No worries! 385:request it be undeleted 726:request its undeletion 702: 663: 496:WikiProject Psychology 456:approach I am taking. 80: 778:Arbitration Committee 761:Hello! Voting in the 707:Articles for Creation 701: 662: 294:Arbitration Committee 277:Hello! Voting in the 84:Articles for Creation 79: 65:Articles for creation 691:Your draft article, 405:“Mainly” in ABA lead 190:reviewer's talk page 713:page you started, " 693:Draft:Anjeza Branka 366:Draft:Anjeza Branka 354:Draft:Anjeza Branka 152:Draft:Anjeza Branka 145:Draft:Anjeza Branka 63:Your submission at 879:properly known as 794:arbitration policy 703: 664: 352:Concern regarding 310:arbitration policy 235:. If you have any 81: 830: 346: 261: 260: 176:untoward behavior 128:mistakes to avoid 112:sources that are 912: 818: 816: 757: 741: 700: 363: 334: 332: 273: 221: 214: 213: 193: 185: 163: 157: 126:and learn about 39: 25: 920: 919: 915: 914: 913: 911: 910: 909: 838: 833: 832: 810: 758: 750: 732: 698: 696: 657: 602: 407: 357: 349: 348: 326: 274: 266: 257: 212: 187: 179: 161: 155: 135: 131: 73: 35: 19: 12: 11: 5: 918: 916: 908: 907: 837: 834: 801:the candidates 770:eligible users 759: 752: 751: 749: 746: 709:submission or 695: 689: 656: 653: 652: 651: 650: 649: 601: 598: 582: 581: 580: 579: 578: 577: 576: 575: 471: 470: 469: 468: 406: 403: 370:may be deleted 356: 350: 317:the candidates 286:eligible users 275: 268: 267: 265: 262: 259: 258: 224: 222: 200: 199: 172: 169:may be deleted 165: 148: 133: 124:technical help 87: 74: 72: 61: 34:—specifically 18: 15: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 917: 906: 902: 898: 894: 890: 886: 882: 877: 876: 875: 874: 870: 866: 865:1.144.111.181 863: 859: 858: 854: 853: 849: 845: 843: 835: 831: 829: 825: 821: 814: 808: 807: 802: 797: 795: 791: 787: 783: 779: 774: 772: 771: 766: 765: 756: 747: 745: 744: 740: 738: 737: 729: 727: 723: 718: 716: 715:Anjeza Branka 712: 708: 694: 690: 688: 687: 683: 679: 675: 672: 669: 661: 654: 648: 644: 640: 636: 635: 634: 630: 626: 622: 621: 620: 619: 615: 611: 605: 599: 597: 596: 592: 588: 574: 570: 566: 562: 558: 553: 552: 551: 547: 543: 538: 534: 530: 526: 525: 524: 520: 516: 511: 510: 509: 505: 501: 497: 492: 488: 487: 486: 485: 481: 477: 467: 463: 459: 454: 453: 452: 448: 444: 439: 438: 437: 436: 432: 428: 422: 421: 417: 413: 404: 402: 401: 397: 393: 388: 386: 381: 379: 375: 371: 367: 362: 355: 351: 347: 345: 341: 337: 330: 324: 323: 318: 313: 311: 307: 303: 299: 295: 290: 288: 287: 282: 281: 272: 263: 256: 252: 248: 244: 243: 238: 234: 233: 228: 223: 220: 216: 215: 211: 207: 203: 197: 192: 191: 184: 183: 177: 173: 170: 166: 160: 153: 149: 146: 142: 141: 139: 129: 125: 121: 117: 116: 111: 110: 105: 104: 99: 95: 91: 85: 78: 70: 69:Anjeza Branka 66: 62: 60: 59: 55: 51: 47: 43: 38: 33: 29: 24: 16: 860: 855: 850: 846: 839: 804: 798: 775: 768: 762: 760: 735: 734: 730: 719: 704: 676: 673: 665: 606: 603: 583: 472: 423: 408: 389: 382: 358: 320: 314: 291: 284: 278: 276: 240: 236: 230: 226: 189: 181: 137: 113: 108: 102: 97: 93: 20: 897:HaiFire3344 842:HaiFire3344 806:voting page 625:HaiFire3344 600:ABA dispute 587:Barbarbarty 565:Barbarbarty 542:HaiFire3344 515:Barbarbarty 500:HaiFire3344 476:Barbarbarty 458:Barbarbarty 443:HaiFire3344 427:Barbarbarty 412:Barbarbarty 322:voting page 227:HaiFire3344 115:independent 94:significant 26:Hello, I'm 790:topic bans 392:FireflyBot 306:topic bans 247:MurielMary 202:MurielMary 52:. Thanks. 881:müllerian 786:site bans 722:mainspace 376:again or 302:site bans 186:, on the 109:secondary 98:published 71:(July 19) 50:Help desk 37:this edit 885:wolffian 242:Teahouse 103:reliable 17:May 2022 813:NoACEMM 491:WP:LEAD 378:request 374:edit it 329:NoACEMM 225:Hello, 194:or use 46:sandbox 42:Itch.io 28:Glane23 889:female 678:Oolong 639:Oolong 610:Oolong 711:Draft 237:other 159:Db-g7 54:Geoff 901:talk 893:male 891:and 883:and 869:talk 840:Hi @ 824:talk 776:The 717:". 682:talk 643:talk 629:talk 614:talk 591:talk 569:talk 546:talk 519:talk 504:talk 489:The 480:talk 462:talk 447:talk 431:talk 416:talk 396:talk 340:talk 292:The 251:talk 206:talk 56:| 40:to 903:) 871:) 826:) 815:}} 811:{{ 788:, 739:iz 684:) 645:) 631:) 616:) 593:) 571:) 548:) 531:, 521:) 506:) 498:. 482:) 464:) 449:) 433:) 418:) 398:) 342:) 331:}} 327:{{ 304:, 253:) 208:) 162:}} 156:{{ 140:. 106:, 100:, 67:: 899:( 867:( 822:( 736:L 680:( 641:( 627:( 612:( 589:( 567:( 544:( 517:( 502:( 478:( 460:( 445:( 429:( 414:( 394:( 338:( 249:( 204:( 198:. 171:.

Index

Information icon
Glane23
your recent contributions
this edit
Itch.io
sandbox
Help desk
Geoff
17:05, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Articles for creation
Anjeza Branka

Articles for Creation
qualifies for a Knowledge (XXG) article
reliable
secondary
independent
guidelines on the notability of people
technical help
mistakes to avoid
Draft:Anjeza Branka
Draft:Anjeza Branka
Db-g7
may be deleted
untoward behavior
Articles for creation help desk
reviewer's talk page
Knowledge (XXG)'s real-time chat help from experienced editors
MurielMary
talk

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.

↑