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Scotland). And we also know that these were rather randomly anglicized over the last several hundred years and became non-patronymic surnames. We have no idea where the specific anglicization "McCandless" first appeared or when. We have reliable sources putting it in Ulster and in
Scotland from the early modern period onward, and we have earlier data for Scotland than for N. Ir., plus what amounted to a long-term Scottish invasion of N. Ir. Our article doesn't even go into that, nor the fact that we actually have no evidence of "McCandless" as a specific spelling existing in Ireland at all until after the Plantation. Rather than go in circles with you again, I'm going to just address the elephant in the room: you're clearly bothered by Scotland being mentioned at the article at all, yet Black (1946) establishes that it's correct, just as MacLysaght and Woulfe show it also correct for N. Ir. The matter has simply been sourced beyond anyone's ability to sweep Scotland under the rug or otherwise engage in a false dichtomy. The article itself needs all these sources directly in it, and I'll get to it when I'm done with Ó Cuindlis.
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in use from 1000 years prior in
Ireland. The only places I can find online that claims it to be a name of Scottish origin are the kinds of websites that sell Scottish tat and fake tartans and coats of arms to Americans. The earliest form of McCandless available in the Irish census records is from the 1831 census and there's 12 recorded instances, mostly from the Coleraine area. I'm descended from those McCandless's. With the earliest example of the name being an Irish abbot, how is it a name of Scottish origin? If anything, it was a name taken to Scotland with the movement of people between the kingdom of Dal Riada and onwards (and I still live in a place that was part of Dal Riada). I have found absolutely no evidence to confirm that the name is in anyway a name of Scottish origin.
276:(as well as just repeating a fraction of research already done by Black, MacLysaght, and Woulfe). FWIW, my own theory is that the name was in use in both Scotland and Ireland in some overlapping anglicized forms like "McCandless" since anglicisation began, but it will take more research, and may just be unprovable. It's also pretty well-established by genealogy projects that many of the North American McCandlesses (the largest extant group of them) are from N. Ir. yet trace back further to Scotland, some in great detail. I'm skeptical these are good enough sources for WP, however, even those published in book form.
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variations of his name. Clonmacnoise was just one of many large
Monastery settlements across Ireland. Unless you've got a Scottish Cuindlis spiderman meme pointing at the Irish one, the name and all the derivatives of it, regardless of what you claim, with the evidence we do actually have is of Irish origin. But clearly I've pissed in a pot I shouldn't have and I really couldn't be bothered arguing the fucking toss about it.
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have been in use throughout the Gaelic-speaking world for 1000+ years, inclucing
Ireland, Scotland, and the Isle of Man. This tells us nothing about where and when particular anglicised spellings (which have only been around for a few hundred years, and which were often treated as interchangable for
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Can you explain to me were you are getting your information from that McCandless is a name of
Scottish origin? The first recorded instance of the surname McCandless I can find in the Scottish census records is from 1861. And it is one single instance. The name McCandless and its derivatives have been
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I've already addressed all this above. In short, we know that
Cuindles and variants of this given name were used among Gaelic speakers since the 8th century. We also know that patronymics were used since before that time and up to the early modern era (throughout Gaeldom, including both Ireland and
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Gaelic names first arose in
Ireland, by definition, since Gaelic spread from Ireland to Scotland and IoM, not the other way around. (Names unique to Scotland and unattested in Ireland are of Norse, Anglo-Saxon, or other origin and are not natively Gaelic.) This tells us nothing about when and where
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Coleraine doesn't even faintly surprise me. It's firmly within the area of the
Plantion of Ulster, and is right on the cusp of early private colonisation efforts and subsequent official plantation, so it may well have been Scot-colonized twice back-to-back. That said, none of the major sources on
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and its anglicized derivates (Conlisk, Cundlish, Quinlisk, etc.) in
Connacht. After 30-odd years of researching this stuff I can't find a single shred of proof they are the same family. They're unrelated families that both had progenitors named Cuindles or some variant of it. (And for that matter,
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article to be "finished". It needs a lot of work on both
Scottish and Irish sourcing (including sources mentioned below). That is mostly done in libraries (and genealogy libraries at that), not online. Most of the sources are not going to be found online. However, the fact that you can find weak
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The existence of the name Cuindles in Ireland since the 8th century is highly relevant when "Mac Cuindleas" is derived from it. Monastery towns were population centres and abbots were marrying and having children during those times. Relatives and descendants of Cuindles would have used his and
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surnames in Ireland say anything about Coleraine in particular, so you again appear to be engaging in original research. (It may well be entirely correct in finding a family cluster of McCandlesses in Coleraine, but reliable secondary sources are not telling us this.)
195:(I think that's a point we agree on), since the given name dates back to at least the 8th century. However, we don't have any secondary sources making this point explicitly. The closest we get is Black saying that the Gaelic patronymic forms like
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You are mixing up old Gaelic patronymics and modern anglicised surnames. The statement "The name McCandless and its derivatives have been in use from 1000 years prior in Ireland" is just patently false. Gaelic patronymics like
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sources online doesn't tell us anything about the strength of other sources, online or not, nor about the nature of the claim. Anyway, I will get to it over time, but have been working on the
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are best regarded as Scots-Irish, i.e. as both Scottish and Northern Irish. We don't have any reason to think the Gaelic patronymic form wasn't in use throughout this whole area going back to
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there's no proof all the McCandless, McCandlish, McAndless, McCanleis, etc., etc. families are directly related either; for all we know there might have been 5 or more Cuindlis fellows whose
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more than census records. The name, under numerous anglicized spellings, is common to at least as early as the 17th century in Wigtownshire and thereabouts. This was during the extended
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is a name of Scottish origin", but those two claims have nothing in common, and the second cannot logically be derived from the first (and is not correct, while the first clearly is).
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during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you.
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To the extent you're trying to come up with an "origin theory" based on your own census-record digging, you are engaging in
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policy, nor will I forward this matter. I just wanted to let you know in case someone else raises an issue over it.
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having been largely imported to N. Ir. from Scotland (nor it having pre-existed in N. Ir.; we simply don't know).
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would have first been used in Ireland. Black's point doesn't in any way prove continual use of it in the exact
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Your 1831 is long after the Plantantion of Ulster and all those other events, so is not evidentiary of origin.
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in particular was re-imported to N. Ir. from Scotland, whether it had already been in use in N. Ir. or not.
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patronymic sons later gave rise to Mc surnames, but this isn't a discussion for Knowledge (XXG).)
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You are also mixing up personal and family names. The existence of the Gaelic given name
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This is a whole lot of stuff to cover. I'm going to break it down into numbered points.
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Feedback request: Knowledge (XXG) technical issues and templates request for comment
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Aside: None of these "Mc" shenanigans appear to relate in any way to the history of
576:, a page which you created or substantially contributed to, has been nominated for
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Have a great 2022 and thanks for your continued contributions to Knowledge (XXG).
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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in Ulster without any dating of it historically. By contrast, the history of
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253:(The 1923 edition would be better, but I have yet to get my hands on it.)
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several centuries) arose, and what the relationships between them are.
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a particular anglicisation of a post-patronymics surname appeared.
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is a surname of Scotland and Northern Ireland" for a claim that "
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in Ireland since the 8th c. is meaningless in this discussion.
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The main source for this sort of thing on the Scottish side is
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is well known to the 14th century. Neither source precludes
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The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning, and History
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Template talk:Committed identity topicon#RfC 8 January 2022
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243:(6th ed.). Dublin: Irish Academic Press. pp. 35, 36, 252.
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The main sources on the Irish side for surname stuff are:
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251:. Vol. II. Dublin: M. H. Gill & Son. pp. 68, 91, 93.
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103:January 2022
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897:SMcCandlish
838:WP:SIGIMAGE
828:SMcCandlish
736:SMcCandlish
375:SMcCandlish
336:SMcCandlish
95:Archive 185
90:Archive 184
85:Archive 183
79:Archive 182
73:Archive 181
68:Archive 180
60:Archive 175
36:This is an
321:McCandless
292:Ó Cuindlis
267:McCandless
262:Ó Cuindlis
257:McCandless
225:Ó Cuindlis
217:McCandless
209:McCandless
185:McCandless
146:Ó Cuindlis
1489:Yapperbot
1424:Steel1943
1366:Yapperbot
1304:Yapperbot
1242:Yapperbot
1143:Yapperbot
1081:Yapperbot
1019:Yapperbot
957:Yapperbot
925:Disregard
798:Yapperbot
766:Disregard
694:I assume
656:Yapperbot
594:Thryduulf
193:Dál Riata
821:Resolved
578:deletion
325:Cuindles
303:Cuindles
213:probable
176:and the
160:It uses
1409:Elf Cat
862:Update:
826:Hello,
501:#6868ab
39:archive
719:Gonnym
468:MMXXII
16:<
1458:Done
1431:talk
1400:Done
1335:Done
1273:Done
1211:Done
1184:talk
1112:Done
1050:Done
988:Done
882:talk
852:talk
723:talk
704:talk
687:Done
625:Done
598:talk
566:Done
360:talk
201:and
162:much
119:talk
906:😼
745:😼
384:😼
345:😼
309:All
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