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specifically chosen (the abbreviated form) so arbitrarily altering them to another form (full page ranges) is inappropriate. In addition, some of your changes were nonsensical like changing "100–2" to "100–02" (the correct form would be "100–102"), and inconsistent (in the body, short refs were changed from abbreviated to full, but in the
References section you changed from full to abbreviated). Your edits also removed several publisher parameters, unlinked others, and removed chapter names. And, as mentioned in the edit summary, insering a spae character for every list item pretty much only serves to make the diff unwieldy. And while I'm nitpicking, I believe there was an instance of altering a cite web to a cite journal, where the article in question was in a magazine rather than a academic journal. Doing this kind of stuff with a script / automated is perilous because there's just so many niggling details like this that can go wrong.Note, of course, that articles decay over time, so if you observed some inconsistent page ranges that is the likely reason. I usually do a run through these articles every couple of years to fix such inconsistenencies that have crept in since last time. --
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inavoidable, so they must be managed regardless. Local short descriptions do not in any meaningful way impact the overall problem scope. I also think you overestimate the precision and quality of the mythical italianate experts that create infoboxes. That is, it's possible the
Italian comunes have infoboxes that hit 100% on every article, but the same will not be the case for the vast majority of articles: some areas will be apt for such automatically generated descriptions but will still have a significant percentage of misses and problems, and other areas will be generally unsuited to automatic generation. In short, it's an imperfect system, because it deals with the ultimate imperfect system: the real world.In terms of advice for how to handle the articles on Italian comunes: the reason for automatically generating a short description is that it's faster and requires less (human) effort. (note well: it is
612:) so "Balthasar" and "Balthazar" are effectively identical. Portia has a servant called Balthasar (bit role) and when she disguises herself as a young doctor of law (something between a legal scolar and a lawyer) she happens to use the same name as an alias. But I'm not really aware that anyone ever confuses the two (in the plot they are obviously distinct); except maybe Shakespeare himself, in the sense that he probably forgot that he'd already used the name for the servant when coming up with an alias for the supposed law doctor. There are a couple of such instances in the canon. Caveat: It's been a while since I last looked at this, so I may be fuzzy on details. --
329:.Then again, infoboxes are probably just a symptom of some underlying systemic problem (possibly partly overlapping the causes of the gender gap). I, for cultural reasons, notice that using curse words tends to get much harsher remedies than confrontational and aggressive behaviour with a veneer of polite language; but it is the latter that in itself is destructive to cooperation and community. Until we manage to start enforcing collaborative and respectful behaviour, and remedying deviations from such, this kind of internecine warfare will just get worse. --
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1141:) started generating SD's, I might have added "City in Apulia, Italy", or "City in southern Italy" or any such phrase that came to mind. But suppose there is no local SD, the infobox has now been instrumented, and I (assuming I am a helpful but not very sophisticated editor) have arranged to make the SD's visible; I see that there is a bug somewhere because it reads, as I look at it today "in Apulia, Italy". So because debugging infoboxes is
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checks) in this particular area. If spot checks suggest the exceptions are numerous, it will need to be handled like any other large scale cleanup task: round up interested editors and start going through them systematically.PS. short descriptions should not contain formatting or wikilinks: they are intended to show up in search results as annotations on the article name. Think of them as the bit after the article name on a
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already a free one through an infobox (turning a blind eye for now to the separate free ones from wikidata). But that would only result in minor unnecessary effort, and I don't think that's much to fuss about.Specifically on this example, I understand that short descriptions should be plain text. I meant to point out that the
Italian infobox template, when calling the settlement infobox template, sets the
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Wikidata and
Knowledge (XXG) are different things. However, the main reasons for the conclusion in the RFC were actually the risk of backdoor vandalism, the ability for the enwiki community to control (both in terms of quality and in terms of policy) what is displayed against their articles, and the general problem that all article content should be directly visible and editable for the editors on enwiki.
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the whole thing will be moot: the WMF will implement something which subsumes the purpose of infoboxes in
Mediawiki and which pulls the details from Wikidata. Every article will get an infobox baked into the Mediawiki skin of the day, and the best we can hope for is that enwp editors will be able to control
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Your "harmonization" of whitespace in citation templates messed up the citations I had very carefully formatted for maintainability and for no good purpose (there is never a reason for automated tools to change whitespace). In addition to being pointless (and, to be frank, quite rude, though not, I'm
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item. The short description on enwiki is a description for the english
Knowledge (XXG) article. These superficially sound the same since the Wikidata item contains data about the same concept as the Knowledge (XXG) article, but these are actually completely orthogonal things in much the same way that
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Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. But given the way it's always just claimed with no particular source, I'm going to call bovine excrement. No way is "Wookie" a functioning language that can be "translated" into
English, and the reversed gibbon shrieks in that scene bear no discernible similarity
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Thanks for the detailed response, and especially for gently pointing out that I'm ignoring mountains in favor of molehills. I do believe there is still a generic imperfection: that many (most?) editors won't turn on one of the tools for showing the short description, and won't be aware that there is
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We're at a point now where I would actually prefer if ArbCom (not that they have the mandate) simply imposed a policy one way or another. Infoboxes is a stupid thing to be fighting over, and yet look at all the disruption and conflict the issue has caused. And the worst part is, in a couple of years
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The "wikidata fallback" that will be removed refers to the behaviour of the
Mediawiki software's behaviour on mobile: at the point referred to the software will stop displaying the description from Wikidata as a fallback when there is no short description provided in the enwiki article directly. The
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The ISBN fixes were fine (I'll assume you have verified that the new ISBNs still refer to the same edition: anything in there that was using an ISBN-10 did so because I was unable to find an ISBN-13 when I manually verified every single ref in the article a few years back). But the page ranges were
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In general terms, as I said, a user might write an incorrect (or ungrammatical etc) SD, then later some subject matter experts add the magic to an infobox. Various other complications arise when (a) the editor isn't using one of the show-me-the-SD techniques, and may be unaware that the infobox has
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Thank you for some food for thought. Arbcom has not managed, and I guess will not manage. And manage what? Have you seen a single fight about an infobox recently? I think the topic is moot already. Those interested just do articles their way (that's what I do) or left altogether (and I wonder why).
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on 14 january 2015, which is, of course, a sandbox rewrite (cf. recent discussions at WT:FAC). No matter… Thanks for correcting me! I've amended the message on the article's talk page to reflect this revised timeline. I'm sticking by my point, even though the argument is significantly weakened, but
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was desysopped just for protecting the article. Anyway, please get your facts right: it's wrong that the article had no infobox from 2010, - I grabbed an arbitrary example. Without looking closer (no time), I suspect the article had an infobox for a long time until it was taken to higher quality by
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Hello: The edits were not arbitrary at all. The
Citation bot gives us full 13 digit ISBNs, which are preferred. The auto ed bot gives us uniform layout fixes. The other changes dealt with page ranges. Some were full-page, and some were shortened. (pp=123-45 v. pp=123-145 or pp=12-3 v. pp=12-13.)
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Editors who do not display the short description are also very unlikely to insert one, or even realize it exists. I'm sure there'll be issues that crop up surrounding short descriptions, but I feel confident they'll be relatively minor in the big picture and over the time spans that are relevant
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kind of "discussion" to repeat itself. The wounds of those involved are too raw, and the current climate too confrontational on that issue. Better if that dog gets to nap another half a decade or so before being bearded.Anyways, I went back to check properly since I'd clearly done a poor job of
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so that a small group of experts can dictate the contents of hundreds, thousands, or even millions of articles!) In other words, start with what you can get "free" through the infobox and then handle any exceptions as needed. It's entirely possible no manual effort is required (apart from spot
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in Umbria, Italy, home of St
Francis". But, as a general case, should the Italian experts fix the infobox, and then go through all the linked articles editing descriptions that seem unintentionally inconsistent? Or, maybe, should there be a three-level priority set: local SD, infobox SD that
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Apologies for the slow response. I've been travelling.Your description of the potential problems is (almost) entirely correct. But what you're failing to take into account is that there are a large number of such problems already extant (consider the article lede, for example), and they are
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a Shakespearean actor, is there a definition/line somewhere? Also, would you happen to now some sort of database where i can search an actors name and get a list of all Shakespeare-roles they've done? Some sort of Shakespeare imdb. I have an idea for an article you may find positively evil.
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to Hamlet's speech, rhytmically or otherwise. It might merit inclusion as a meme that has evolved after the fact, but I don't buy it as a deliberate allusion by the filmmakers absent a direct statement to that effect. Pity, it would have been fun to connect the two in that way. --
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template, it's just when it gets reused in the short description it causes problems; and there even simple italics will potentially cause problems. I would suggest the proper approach to dealing with this is for the settlement infobox to detect and strip this from the call to
1217:, but that default fails to show up as the first word of the description. However, it just occurred to me that the lang template is in fact the culprit, not the link. Maybe in this instance it should just be replaced by simple italic marks. I'll try to get it fixed.
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The reason I haven't brought these issues up is that I was sure that the maintainers of the SD feature must have thought of these prioritization-vs-consistency issues, but given our recent interaction I wanted to check. Thanks for plowing through my pedantry.
865:. Shakespearean actors is hard, but it boils down to a judgement as to whether the sources describe them as known for playing Shakespearean parts versus having once or twice appeared in something by Shakespeare. Olivier is probably the epitome of the former;
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description on Wikidata will not be affected at all. Except that I, personally, think it likely that Wikidata will eventually batch import all the enwiki short descriptions to populate Wikidata items that lack a description, but that's a separate matter. --
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in Apulia, Italy". Bottom line: I suspect that there will be more local SD's written by English-speakers that don't use the word comune, and/or don't wikilink it. It ends up inconsistent, and I'm one who doesn't like unintentional inconsistency.
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overrides local, local SD with explicit flags to override any infobox? Of course, this applies way beyond Italian comune. Also, generalize infobox in my examples to any template that provides a SD as collateral?
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Thank you. "Happy" and that dscussion don't go together, sadly. Sandbox rewrite, no discussion with the community, that's what I see, and every time someone dares to ask they are infobox warriors ;) --
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and is the basis for all decision making processes on Knowledge (XXG). If you are unable to conform your tool use to "what other editors are expecting" it's not a matter of "bad luck" so much as
808:, now you lost me a little, are you saying that Pacino did Shylock outside that film as well? If so, I didn't know that, and neither does internetshakespeare. Question though, do these lists
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You are, quite literally, too kind; mine was a mere supporting role (well, except I do take some credit for the kids). But I will happily and gratefully take the accolade none the less. :) --
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sure, intentionally) and disruptive, automated tools should not be used to make "cosmetic" edits (changing whitespace is the specific target of that general rule). Automated tools are good
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Good to hear you're ok! I do sometimes worry about people on here, since we've lost some wonderful collaborators over the years, so I very much appreciate the notice. Welcome back. --
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The new image is obviously clearer, and yes, I obviously prefer it, for that reason. How about we have a reasoned conversation before you mass revert everything on impulse. (
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Sometimes it is bad luck that these tools is not what other editors are expecting. Also it took a bit of time for you to notice what went wrong with the careful formatting.
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It would be so easy if those who want to see an infobox would see one, and those who hate it could just see an image, which should be possible, technically. I am improving
120:, it seems to be exactly the same thing than the wikidata short description, except that {{SHORTDESC:}} overwrites the wikidata one for quality control purpose.
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to explain some facts about short descriptions, but I'm still worried about the interaction, in practice, between a local SD and one inherited from an infobox.
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407:, for exceptional reviewing earning "Think how many high school essays will reflect your language!", for contemplation, for service from 2006, - you are an
299:, look for my name ;) - 3 comments, and I stand by every one, and was taken to AE because I was then allowed only 2. We are such a loving community. --
507:, but you are still responsible for the edits made using them: and that implies both thinking before clicking and checking the diffs before saving. --
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Does it mean that the short description element in wikidata will be suppressed, or juste that it won't be used again in Knowledge (XXG)? Thank you, --
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good, I have to see that film. You may want to see Steve Speirs take on Shylock in a certain sitcom, he drinks the blood of christian babies.
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1239:(I've been around here more than ten years, and the stuff that were major controversies back then nobody cares one whit about today).As for
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regarding it, and asked you politely to refrain from making further such edits. What you choose to do with that information is up to you. --
583:"(as a side note, there is a common misconception that Portia disguised herself as Balthazar, when she actually named herself Balthasar)"
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We appear to have cross-posted on each other's talk pages. Let's continue the discussion on yours. But for the record, I've asked
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You said "The field on Wikidata has an entirely different purpose, different policies, and different quality control mechanisms."
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Thnaks GGS. I couldn't access the book but I'm guessing it is a "alas poor C3PO - I knew him Horatio" reference :-) Fun stuff.
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alone qualifies CP as a Shakespearean actor. A couple days ago I found that the David Tennant/Katherine Tate production of
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to "mass revert" your own edits, rather than do it myself, as that would be the reasonable thing to do in this situation.
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Yeah, I feel I need to note that I personally don't really care one way or another about infoboxes; I just don't want
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I recognize the reverse: there may be cases where an Italian town does reasonably get a custom description, e.g. "
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more for the above mentioned reasons than because I am particularly happy with how the status quo came about. --
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I agree with what you said. It was one of the most hurtful experiences in my career here. You may remember that
981:." Sorry, but I can not unhear that quote. The database seems quite inclusive, I found this masterpiece (?):
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is a quick glimpse for your perusal. I know what I'll be watching this weekend. Best regards to you both.
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Hi, Xover. I see you've pinged me a couple of times in the past months. So I'm just stopping by to say
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Not really Al Pacino, is it? I assume you've seen Blackadder hit Shakespeare in the mouth explaining "
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Hypothesis: As the years passed, he became so annoyed that noone noticed it, he felt he
934:(ec) Thanks, Xover. I actually sought out that Pacino-clip a few days ago while editing
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Because there were mixes in the presentation I edited carefully and in accordance with
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It's trivial / nonsense. Elizabethan orthography was not even remotely fixed (see e.g.
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I much prefer to be called "too kind" to "infobox warrior" and the other niceties ;) --
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done the work (b) the infobox hasn't been instrumented yet (c) the infobox is wrong.
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Thank you, great value for money as always. More questions: would it be fair to call
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have only reverted the change on articles I regularly edit (are on my watchlist). --
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reverted on all the affected articles that are on my watchlist; but the articles I
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Anne Hathaway. To quote Mike Myers/Wayne Campbell, "Anne hath a way of giving me a
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illustrates the approaches well).For your "IMDB" needs I would also suggest the
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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is airing over here and it is as wonderful and informative as the first two.
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page: each entry should have only one link, and that's the article title. --
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Thank you for quality articles around your Shakespeare obsession, such as
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770:. I don't know how good it is, but it did know that Pacino did Shylock.
1260:(or its invocation of the underlying magic word as the case may be). --
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1580:, but only waking from an unexpectedly long wikislumber. Cheers.
895:'s insights about playing Shylock are particularly interesting.
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Thanks for the links X! Those lists are definitely incomplete
144:"At some point, the Wikidata fallback will be removed." -: -->
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for every schoolboy and schoolgirl in the next 400 years!"
788:. BTW the Pacino Shylock was also adapted into this film
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recalling the history. The article had an infobox until
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Thank you very much Marnette, and have a nice weekend!
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Wikidata treats it as a short descriptive text for the
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Wow! I stand corrected. Extremely nice find, that! --
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Database of Shakespeare on Film, Television and Radio
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Knowledge (XXG):Short_description#Background/overview
1025:Thanks MarnetteD, I thought there should be more.
813:seem short to you? Maybe it's a membership thing.
325:details appear and how they're formatted. Compare
1556:reverted you on have all been on my watchlist. --
193:I would very much not want that discussion again
1548:Actually, just to be perfectly clear: I have
859:British Universities Film & Video Council
586:Is this "true"/worth keeping in the article?
542:"what other editors are expecting" is called
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1474:Heh heh. Yeah, I can easily picture that. --
383:contemplation, immodesty and gratification
1407:Would you take the directors word on it?
351:a little recent edit war over the infobox
1243:, in the infobox it's correct using the
767:I may have found what I was looking for:
696:OMFG that was great! Reminds me of this:
550:. I've made you aware of this issue and
141:Also, can you confirm something, please?
659:Christopher Plummer#Stratford Festival
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
889:third season of Shakespeare Uncovered
7:
480:- I haven't noticed anything wrong.
216:ps: no time, but easy to find, from
1215:{{{settlement_type|{{lang|it|]}}}}}
730:One of the many charming things in
790:The Merchant of Venice (2004 film)
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665:has been downloaded to YouTube.
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845:). I count it better even than
784:Good job finding that website
610:Spelling of Shakespeare's name
202:editors who don't like one. --
185:17:49, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
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1349:reference. Quite delightful.
1106:A couple days ago you kindly
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1117:Consider Italian towns, say
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1572:I feel happy! I feel happy!
740:is a G&S fan. See also
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295:I took heart and looked at
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1102:Short description override
869:possibly of the latter. --
552:the community expectations
476:What is the reason behind
123:Did I miss anything else?
1453:to start telling people.
843:the theatrical production
354:, - please watch it ;) --
841:is my favorite Shylock (
1345:, you are looking at a
733:Raiders of the Lost Ark
1342:at 4:00. According to
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1136:Infobox Italian comune
937:The Merchant of Venice
663:Much Ado About Nothing
576:The Merchant of Venice
713:That link is a treat
42:of past discussions.
1500:Samuel Johnson image
297:the discussion again
653:Hello to you both.
628:Christopher Plummer
544:community consensus
116:For what I read in
1470:Gråbergs Gråa Sång
1455:Gråbergs Gråa Sång
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1380:Gråbergs Gråa Sång
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1126:Infobox settlement
1070:Gråbergs Gråa Sång
1050:masterpiece? :) --
1042:Gråbergs Gråa Sång
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985:Gråbergs Gråa Sång
885:Gråbergs Gråa Sång
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588:Gråbergs Gråa Sång
548:disruptive editing
409:awesome Wikipedian
405:Hamnet Shakespeare
1256:short description
657:IMO this section
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1289:. Thanks. –
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1280:Shaky changes
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454:Gerda Arendt
434:Gerda Arendt
418:Gerda Arendt
415:
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381:
356:Gerda Arendt
327:WP:SHORTDESC
322:
316:Gerda Arendt
301:Gerda Arendt
283:Gerda Arendt
258:
253:Gerda Arendt
230:Gerda Arendt
215:
204:Gerda Arendt
196:
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125:
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78:
43:
37:
1339:, look here
1234:DavidBrooks
1180:DavidBrooks
1131:(called by
126:Regards, --
36:This is an
1335:Xover and
1307:Srich32977
1287:WP:CITEVAR
1108:stepped in
792:. Cheers.
346:an article
98:Archive 20
90:Archive 18
85:Archive 17
79:Archive 16
73:Archive 15
68:Archive 14
60:Archive 10
1598:Phil wink
1582:Phil wink
1366:MarnetteD
1337:MarnetteD
1121:. Before
1046:You mean
942:scaringly
940:, it was
897:MarnetteD
834:MarnetteD
806:MarnetteD
794:MarnetteD
719:MarnetteD
671:MarnetteD
264:this edit
199:my friend
736:is that
376:Precious
168:Wikidata
1291:S. Rich
1247:lang-it
855:Stewart
853:(also,
847:Olivier
471:Macbeth
39:archive
1347:Hamlet
1241:comune
1155:Comune
1147:Comune
1119:Ostuni
1066:That's
851:Welles
839:Pacino
738:Sallah
162:Daehan
147:Daehan
128:Daehan
1604:Xover
1558:Xover
1536:Xover
1522:Hohum
1507:Hohum
1476:Xover
1437:Xover
1387:Xover
1314:Xover
1262:Xover
1196:Xover
1052:Xover
871:Xover
614:Xover
556:Xover
509:Xover
505:tools
440:Xover
348:with
331:Xover
269:Xover
177:Xover
16:<
1608:talk
1586:talk
1562:talk
1554:have
1540:talk
1480:talk
1459:talk
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1420:talk
1391:talk
1370:Talk
1355:talk
1318:talk
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1266:talk
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1200:talk
1168:talk
1143:hard
1074:talk
1056:talk
1048:this
1031:talk
989:talk
979:bone
975:that
973:Oh,
901:Talk
875:talk
849:and
832:and
819:talk
798:Talk
776:talk
753:talk
723:Talk
705:talk
688:talk
675:Talk
667:Here
637:talk
618:talk
592:talk
579:plot
560:talk
527:Swan
523:Iggy
513:talk
486:Swan
482:Iggy
478:that
458:talk
444:talk
422:talk
403:and
360:talk
335:talk
323:what
305:talk
287:talk
273:talk
259:that
234:talk
228:. --
225:2015
219:2006
208:talk
181:talk
151:talk
132:talk
1550:not
1528:you
1451:had
1329:Man
1187:not
861:'s
222:to
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1542:)
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1482:)
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1414:.
1393:)
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1320:)
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1268:)
1258:}}
1254:{{
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1123:{{
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416:--
411:!
399:,
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94:→
64:←
1606:(
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50:.
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