1214:- most likely we are all aware that Knowledge isn't for collecting and archiving statistical data, but to simply reiterate that certainly isn't much of an argument here. I am not sure how exactly we are suppose to be aware or how we "know" that Premier League of Bosnia and Herzegovina became "professional" only since 2016? That's absolutely incorrect! I had dispute several years ago over issue of this particular league professional status with some user (with admin's prerogatives) claiming how league wasn't professional, although I don't remember his exact arguments mine were quite simple - beside the fact that Yugoslavian First League became fully pro in the 1960s, and that all successor leagues (Slovenia, Serbia (w/t Montenegro at the time), Macedonia, Croatia, and Bosnia) changed absolutely nothing in regulating of their own respective competitions, I was able, and I still am, to find online various written official documents, academic research and legal papers, or simply online text documents discussing regulation of professionalism in Croatia, Serbia and most importantly Bosnia. Now, I really hope that we already moved beyond doubts on professional status of all leagues successors of former Yugoslav First League since that time, and that we learned that Premier League of Bosnia, just like top flights in all these other countries of former Yugoslavia, is professional since 1960s. So my only problem, though easily solvable, would be lack of prose in some of the articles that I checked, and (maybe) need for (perpetual) improvement of refed sources, but notability shouldn't be questioned just because some don't like it, or aren't interested, or consider country's competition unimportant and too obscure from his/her perspective. We should keep Seasons and tagged them if needed properly for improvement.--
977:. I don't see the lack of professional status as being particularly germane here. While NSEASONS does suggest that teams in top professional leagues qualify for individual season articles, it doesn't require professionalism. Instead, it has a fairly lengthy section considering notability for a specific subset of non-professional sport (i.e., US college sport) which concludes that there are certain circumstances in which they can be notable. In this particular case, we have a national championship winning season in both the country's and the world's most popular sport, with a league that was ranked higher by UEFA than some fully professional leagues. Lack of professionalism should not be a factor here. However, the article in its current state is nothing but stats and records, which certainly is a factor. This should be redirected to the parent article for now, but without prejudice on recreation if anyone cares to research and write a proper prose version of the article.
1094:, however, nobody is going to delete them as they all have some significance to the team's history. The argument that these seasons weren't "professional" is flawed as the Top 4 teams automatically qualified for European competition, meaning that UEFA recognized the winners as the domestic champions and allowed them (and the 3 teams that finished below them) to compete in arguably, the most professional soccer competition in the world. I also agree with
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discussion about whether top professional applies to the semi-pro 5th level of
English football - but that focused more on "top" than "professional". Attempts have been made to make it fully-professional, but have been reverted in the past. In particular, the current wording dates back to 2010, before which it was only top leagues - looking at the accompanying discussion, there doesn't seem to be any consensus that it's fully-professional.
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I'm relisting this even though I feel the stronger arguments are for delete. The arguments for keep are lengthy but ultimately not closely linked to guidelines. Rather than focussing on whether or not the league is professional or not, I would encourage editors to cite specific sources that show both
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Digging through various archives and previous discussions, I don't see any conclusion that the "professional" in NSEASONS means fully-professional. This has come up before, such as in the previous AFD, where even you didn't refute this for the month after the same claim was made. I do see historic
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This closure should not be taken as affirmation that any of these articles are notable, more that a decision on such a large number is now very hard to make. I would recommend any editor who still questions the notability of any of these articles to renominate individually and for editors in those
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only says club seasons for top professional leagues can normally be created because they usually satisfy GNG. Furthermore it also says that articles should be mainly sourced prose and in most instances here they are not. However, some work has been done on some articles which indicates GNG, which
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It's been slow going, not least because I haven't been on
Knowledge as much, but there's plenty of Bosnian language content to update these articles with once the archives of some of these websites are found. Maybe not all of these seasons are notable, but I'm starting to
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have articles about nearly every season that they have ever played, and some of those articles about a specific season would fail WP:NOSTATS. So instead, I recommend that we fix the glaring issues in these articles, so that they aren't considered "delete-worthy" again.
1533:, significantly improving the article. Articles should be improved, as GNG sources are not difficult to find - which shouldn't be a surprise for teams that played at the top level, were historically fully-professional, and are currently fully-professional.
1039:, which also allows for top level articles. The Željezničar articles would be fine if they had properly referenced prose. I've added a very brief bit of sourced prose to the 2011–12 season, which they won the Bosnian double and which clearly passes
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1525:, which is primarily, so we don't waste lots of time debating the notability of topics that invariably are notable, with GNG sources available. As noted in the previous comments, six additional GNG sources have now
52:. I'm closing this as no consensus as this is fast turning into a mess. There are a number of keep votes but they concern themselves mainly with whether the league is professional or not. That is not relevant,
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Bosnian league is a direct successor of the
Yugoslav first league where for example FK Zeljeznicar reached semi finals of UEFA Cup 1986 season. Bosnian league is a professional league and is a member of UEFA.
1090:, as technically, these were all significant seasons in these clubs' history. Technically speaking, most seasons of any sports team (notably those where they finish mediocre in all competitions) would fail
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complicates matters, although number are just stat dumps with a couple of references. Finally, the nominators decision to try to withdraw the nomination very late on further complicates things.
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is not correct, and in contrast to the AFD discussion in 2014. The league may have not been fully professional until 2016, but it was professional - and that's what NSEASONS is referring to.
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1185:. Nomination appears incorrect - it's not difficult to quickly find significant Bosnian media coverage for some of these seasons - even some English coverage such as
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945:, Knowledge is a not a stats collection. Through I am open to merger to a single article that could pass notability, if someone can make such a case. --
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given that the team won the domestic double and competed in the Europa League. The lack of prose is not a reason for deletion given that
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1241:"LEGAL STRUCTURE OF FOOTBALL CLUBS IN YUGOSLAVIA AND CROATIA WITH EMPHASIS ON THE EMPLOYMENT STATUS OF PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL PLAYERS"
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as the leagues seem to be professional and will probably not break GNG. I reckon the best reasoning is to withdraw this nomination.
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as the league wasn't an professional league until 2016-17. I will also be nominating these articles for the same reason.
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concerns are valid. Had there not been such a large number of articles up for deletion, I would have closed this now.
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1128:- I think these AfDs may need to be broken down into smaller batches. For example, I suspect the main nomination,
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that the arguments presented as to why the articles should be deleted are flawed. Many other teams like
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1086:- These seasons were all seasons in top-flight of Bosnian football, and deleting them would go against
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has absolutely nothing to do with the professionalism of the league, which is a rough guideline from
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isn't met. However this is not true. This also came up in the previous 2014 AFD. NSEASONS says
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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1418:. Also, I'm convinced not every Bosnian Premier League team's season would be notable on
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1055:. Basically, I'm a weak keep for most of these, even though all of them currently fail
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/1979–80 Notre Dame
Fighting Irish men's basketball team
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Because some of this articles was already nominated for deletion, about 5 years ago.
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1345:- per above, especially per KingSkyLord. These are professional teams now anyways.
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discussions to focus on GNG, not simply whether the league is professional or not.
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Articles can be created on individual seasons of teams in top professional leagues
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is easily met. Articles should be improved and expanded, not deleted.
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Beyond that, let's go back to the reason to have standards such as
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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1043:. There was a college seasons article I nominated for failing
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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grounds, but Željezničar at the very least is well covered.
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list of Bosnia and
Herzegovina-related deletion discussions
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and that sourced prose can be added to these articles per
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There are claims in the some of the delete comments that
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guideline may not be met, it's not relevant given that
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the league wasn't an professional league until 2016-17
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1584:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
1390:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
998:'s list of association football-related deletions.
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Articles for deletion/2011–12 FK Željezničar season
1047:which was kept since the season ultimately passed
1016:- per NOTSTATS and NSEASONS. No need to redirect.
1487:Not correct - when it comes to 'professional' at
1414:the "parent" article, and it should clearly pass
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1613:). No further edits should be made to this page.
921:Note: This discussion has been included in the
901:Note: This discussion has been included in the
87:Articles for deletion/2011–12 FK Sarajevo season
1248:Zbornik Pravnog fakulteta Sveučilišta u Rijeci
903:list of Football-related deletion discussions
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133:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
1461:. The claim in the nomination statement by
994:Note: This discussion has been included in
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948:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
7:
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1239:Iveta, Vladimir (27 August 2018).
779:2014–15 HŠK Zrinjski Mostar season
733:2014–15 FK Borac Banja Luka season
549:2013–14 FK Borac Banja Luka season
24:
1051:I'm trying to find. I think it's
118:Introduction to deletion process
1287:Kovačić, Davor (28 June 2016).
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
1493:player notability requirements
1491:, it actually means (like our
1:
1531:2011–12 FK Željezničar season
1296:Časopis za suvremenu povijest
1130:2011–12 FK Željezničar season
825:2015–16 FK Željezničar season
503:2013–14 FK Željezničar season
457:2012–13 FK Željezničar season
142:2011–12 FK Željezničar season
77:2011–12 FK Željezničar season
1084:Keep all, do not delete any
108:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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687:2015–16 FK Sarajevo season
641:2014–15 FK Sarajevo season
595:2013–14 FK Sarajevo season
411:2012–13 FK Sarajevo season
365:2011–12 FK Sarajevo season
319:2010–11 FK Sarajevo season
273:2009–10 FK Sarajevo season
1594:16:56, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
1567:20:51, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
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1507:13:45, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
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1603:Please do not modify it.
1059:, based on that policy.
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32:Please do not modify it.
1138:Deletion is not cleanup
967:FK Željezničar Sarajevo
1260:10.30925/zpfsr.39.2.12
883:Withdrawn by nominator
82:AfDs for this article:
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1372:Relisting comment:
1132:, may likely pass
263:The article fails
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1292:(html, pdf)
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1191:WP:NSEASONS
1159:WP:NSEASONS
1113:KingSkyLord
1057:WP:NOTSTATS
1045:WP:NOTSTATS
975:WP:NOTSTATS
971:WP:NSEASONS
227:free images
1586:Randykitty
1527:been added
1392:Fenix down
1155:Delete all
1092:WP:NOSTATS
1037:WP:SEASONS
1014:Delete all
953:reply here
927:HawkAussie
907:HawkAussie
887:HawkAussie
871:HawkAussie
63:Fenix down
1607:talk page
1307:0590-9597
1267:1330-349X
1218:౪ Santa ౪
1161:failure.
37:talk page
1609:or in a
1576:Relisted
1559:BiHVolim
1554:Keep all
1385:NOTSTATS
1381:NSEASONS
1364:Relisted
1343:Keep all
1326:Keep all
1212:Keep all
963:Redirect
186:View log
127:glossary
54:NSEASONS
39:or in a
1504:Snowman
1447:Comment
1407:Comment
1312:15 June
1272:15 June
1126:Comment
1021:Snowman
1003:Snowman
842:protect
837:history
796:protect
791:history
750:protect
745:history
704:protect
699:history
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612:protect
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474:protect
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382:protect
377:history
336:protect
331:history
290:protect
285:history
233:WP refs
221:scholar
159:protect
154:history
104:New to
1420:WP:GNG
1416:WP:GNG
1412:WP:HEY
1195:WP:GNG
1164:Number
1142:Kosack
1134:WP:GNG
1106:, and
1088:WP:GNG
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1033:WP:GNG
943:Delete
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265:WP:GNG
205:Google
163:delete
1535:Nfitz
1501:Giant
1471:Nfitz
1465:that
1199:Nfitz
1018:Giant
1000:Giant
863:views
855:watch
851:links
817:views
809:watch
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771:views
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299:links
248:JSTOR
209:books
193:Stats
180:views
172:watch
168:links
16:<
1590:talk
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1539:talk
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1396:talk
1351:talk
1334:talk
1314:2019
1304:ISSN
1274:2019
1264:ISSN
1203:talk
1187:this
1183:Keep
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969:per
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241:FENS
215:news
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150:talk
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67:talk
1529:to
1377:GNG
1256:doi
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255:TWL
184:– (
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