529:. Yes, there was a time historically when a law dean was just a department head, like any other academic unit might have, but those days are long gone. By dint of the power of the ABA to confer accreditation, law school deans are required to have substantially greater autonomy and authority than academic deans generally (the other exception would be for medical school deans); furthermore, law schools are required to have their own independent physical facilities, law libraries, and various other services maintained independently of the university, all of which must fall under the authority of the Dean. Deans of larger law schools occupy a position of importance and authority at least equal to the president of a smaller college. A standard that is ignorant of this reality is just silly.
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information you claim is trivially easy to confirm (which is a straw man on top of a straw man, as 'well published' alone does not prove notability -- well-cited is what would need to be shown), and now the implication that an old discussion is useless when the real issue is that you are right now, in this discussion, pretending that the failed change was actually made. You're providing an awful lot of bluster but I would prefer you provide evidence of notability based on (actual) Knowledge guidelines.
1192:. Knowledge's insistence on applying much more restrictive criteria to knowledge workers than to professional wrestlers is a prime example of institutional stupidity. Here, that stupidity is compounded by refusal to recognize that professional schools like Yale Drama, Harvard Divinity, Johns Hopkins Medicine, Stanford Law, etc, etc, etc should be regarded as "major academic institutions" on Knowledge, just as they are regarded in the rational world.
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notable as a dean of law, it must be through some other notability criterion. It is also my position that you have previously and repeatedly tried to change the guideline to make law special, failed to achieve consensus to do so, and that there is some dishonesty involved in pretending that the change you wanted was made when in fact it was rejected
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Law schools are a separate category of institution, as ABA accreditation rules require them to have substantial administrative independence from the universities with which they are affiliated. However, even if this institution were bound by the referenced explanation, it also provides for notability
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to anyone who actually pays attention to the wording of the guideline rather than trying to pretend that it says something different from what it actually says) or one book with three reviews, I would say delete. But I don't think law is typically a high-citation field, so six publications with over
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discuss his scholarly and other activities, in sufficient depth to constitute significant coverage. I was under the impression that you were going to look at these sources. However, the
Zachary R. Dowdy piece in particular describes the subject's origins, teaching history, and involvement in notable
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in independent, reliable, secondary sources." Being a dean does not fulfill the notability criteria, so routine coverage of the subject's gaining or leaving a deanship could not possibly be evidence of notability. We both know you are familiar with this criteria so please stop with the fallacies and
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focusing on content. From the headlines it appears obvious those articles are routine coverage of the kind you see any time the dean of a notable school resigns or is appointed which does not improve the subject's notability. Regardless, I'll put some effort into digging up copies of them and will
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was done. There is no need to get pointy, my nominating for deletion an article that you created is not a personal attack. My research indicated that the subject is fairly well-published and cited, but not significantly more so than typical academic within the field. I am simply asking to see what
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says "Lesser administrative posts (provost, dean, department chair, etc.) are generally not sufficient", that it makes no exception for law, and that your or my personal experiences or opinions as university instructors can have no effect on that plain and unambiguous wording. If someone is to be
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C6 any more than the dean of the school of literature science and arts does. However, the deanship certainly doesn't hurt notability; meanwhile the good number of papers with 100+ citations looks to me like C1, and I think that election to the
American Law Institute might be C3. Combined with
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Your arguments throughout this discussion have been a series of straw men -- first, that law school deans are more autonomous than other deans when the real issue is if they are notable per
Knowledge guidelines, second, arguing that BEFORE wasn't done when the real issue is the existence of the
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The provision you reference states "exceptions are possible on a case-by-case basis (e.g., being a
Provost of a major university may sometimes qualify)". It can not reasonably be doubted that the ranking and notability of a major law school is insubstantial to this exception. As for their
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Having taught both undergraduate classes in a university department with a dean within the university's academic structure, and at a law school, I have experienced the difference personally. I'm not sure what you are considering "false" here. Is it your position that the ABA does
445:#6. A deanship does not somehow become notable based on the ranking of the school or how 'historic' it is. If you believe the subject meets criteria #1 based on their publishing and that this is "trivially easy to confirm" then I invite you to confirm it.
616:
I am surprised that you would bring up an eleven-year-old discussion for this point, though it is nice to see that you have remained consistent in declining to consider the evidence provided. You are, of course, always free to change your !vote below.
510:
Not this ... again. Deans of law are not automatically notable, any more than deans of other disciplines are. There is no special exception for law. There never has been a special exception for law. You will have to argue on other grounds.
397:, which is a school within the university. This is how nearly every major university in the USA is set up and the difference between president of the university and dean of a school within that university is precisely the distinction
902:, "Researcher finds articles on nuclear bomb secrets", Calgary Herald, (May 23, 1979), p. D-16; "Scientist discovers more H-bomb how-to manuals", The Miami News, (May 23, 1979), p. 2-A; both discussing Soifer's involvement in the
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routinely ranks in the top 15-20% of law schools in the country, and is one of the most historic. This would be a notable deanship, even without the subject's unusual breadth of publications (which you have not addressed).
568:, in fact, require universities to vest law school deans with a level of autonomy beyond what is typically required of university departments with deans? Are you contending that law schools in the United States are
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case. Glenn
Collins, "Understanding paternalism", Fort Worth Star-Telegram (October 22, 1981), p. 3C, via the New York Times News Service, discussing particular research project of Soifer's.
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Bluster and tacking the word "school" at the end of the name of your thing-within-a-university to make it look impressive still fails to address the underlying falsity of your arguments. —
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have additional information about the subject? I certainly never have. If the subject is notable for 'scholarly and other activities' then those other activities would have been
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Yet another straw man, once again to avoid acknowledging the fact that holding the position of dean is insufficient to fulfill the notability guidelines. The specific guideline
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cases completely distinct from his deanships. Other sources cited in the article specifically discuss the subject's involvement in these matters unrelated to his deanship.
793:, "Subjects of biographical articles on Knowledge are required to be notable; that is significant, interesting, or unusual enough to be worthy of notice, as evidenced by
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was never invoked or implied, nor would any reasonable, competent editor have assumed it was. Routine coverage is the opposite of significant coverage, and per
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Of course these announcements have additional information. You're in academia and I'm sure have read hundreds of these -- have you read a single one that
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1106:, I have just added sources showing that the subject received national (and international, if you count Canada) coverage for his role in the
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Apgar, Sally (March 16, 2003). "Pay doubles for new UH dean: Aviam Soifer, chosen as head of the UH law school, will earn about $ 250,000"
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The Big Bad
Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong!
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672:. That said, please re-review the article in light of the improvements that have been made since this nomination was initiated, per
857:. The fact that they are not, but rather are employed as filler material in routine announcements, does not help prove notability.
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Richard Chacón, "Law school dean at BC to resign; Departure of Soifer is unexpected", The Boston Globe (November 26, 1997), p. B7.
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the highest level post. In any case, it is trivially easy to confirm that the subject is well-published relative to his field.
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and therefore only applies to establishing notability about events. The primary guideline discussing notability of people is
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There are also numerous articles reporting, in some depth, specific aspects of his work on cases, causes, and theories.
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963:. Dean of two law schools, author of notable book (I found three reviews), journal articles widely cited per Scholar
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to me, even though it doesn't even put him into the top 100 scholars of constitutional law listed by Google
Scholar
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1163:. Election to the American Law Institute certainly helps, but a bunch of people are elected every month
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where the deanship is of a high-ranking institution. You should rather easily be able to confirm that
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I will explain this very carefully. The articles that discuss his selection to various deanships
572:, in fact, required to have separate facilities and libraries under the authority of that Dean?
1040:. If the only case for notability were his dean position (clearly and obviously not enough for
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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We aren't in the 1800s here. We are not talking about "Deans of law" but about Deans of law
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Zachary R. Dowdy, "Professor named dean of BC law", The Boston Globe (May 2, 1993), p. 36.
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the subject of significant coverage in independent, reliable, secondary sources
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you say is 'trivially easy to confirm'; that's the purpose of this forum.
52:. Weak or not, there is consensus that the article should be kept.
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the sources that discuss their hiring for deanships and the like.
1166:, so it is not highly selective. Number of citations is fine for
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Appointment of Aviam Soifer as dean of Boston
College Law School
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Pointing out fallacy-based arguments in the present discussion
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for a reviewed book, this looks like a solid keep case to me.
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list of
Academics and educators-related deletion discussions
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take a look at the rest of the changes to the article.
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is the institution. The subject was the dean of the
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460:publications, it sounds like you are suggesting
326:Note: This discussion has been included in the
306:Note: This discussion has been included in the
286:Note: This discussion has been included in the
266:Note: This discussion has been included in the
328:list of Education-related deletion discussions
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112:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
268:list of People-related deletion discussions
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795:being the subject of significant coverage
242:Subject is an academic who does not meet
308:list of Law-related deletion discussions
757:". If this were an article on, e.g.,
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988:issued a proclamation in his honor:
664:I would prefer that you comment on
395:William S. Richardson School of Law
352:William S. Richardson School of Law
1109:United States v. Progressive, Inc.
886:Other sources cited in the article
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749:is a subsection of the guideline
1045:100 citations in Google Scholar
97:Introduction to deletion process
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
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464:should have been done here.
87:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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890:. Other sources, meaning,
401:clarifies in criteria #6.
418:Boston College Law School
356:Boston College Law School
1211:Please do not modify it.
32:Please do not modify it.
986:Supreme Court of Hawaii
592:It is my position that
1048:looks like enough for
1009:I'd say he even meets
798:off-topic diversions.
745:: "bear in mind that
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350:. At both
59:Jack Frost
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165:View log
106:glossary
39:or in a
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527:schools
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387:Comment
358:, Dean
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212:WP refs
200:scholar
138:protect
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83:New to
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1112:case.
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911:BD2412
851:didn't
834:BD2412
770:BD2412
695:BD2412
674:WP:HEY
622:BD2412
577:BD2412
534:BD2412
469:BD2412
426:BD2412
367:BD2412
244:WP:GNG
184:Google
142:delete
227:JSTOR
188:books
172:Stats
159:views
151:watch
147:links
16:<
1198:talk
1190:Keep
1152:talk
1135:Keep
1085:talk
1061:talk
1023:talk
997:talk
972:talk
957:Keep
861:Pais
826:also
802:Pais
719:Pais
642:Pais
608:talk
555:talk
517:talk
494:talk
451:talk
407:talk
354:and
348:Keep
336:talk
316:talk
296:talk
276:talk
256:talk
220:FENS
194:news
155:logs
129:talk
125:edit
63:talk
50:keep
1055:. —
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602:. —
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566:not
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234:TWL
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1124:T
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1080:.
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230:·
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216:·
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203:·
197:·
191:·
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168:·
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