717:(edit conflict) What does that have to do with anything? "Your" version is obviously chock-full of weird stuff about how supposedly Germans from Nazi Germany where "the real victim of WWII", which as I noted above - and for which I can provide reliable sources - is a standard far-right tactic in countries where Holocaust denial is illegal. And if you really wanna drag out old stuff I can certainly find some choice comments of yours from the past, like this innocent question
511:: the current version is labelled as a dab page: remove all the non-ambiguous entries and it becomes empty and speediable. Perhaps it needs to be renamed as a stub and the links labelled as a "See also" section ... but then it comes under CSD A3 as having no content other than those "See also"s. Such "defects" are pretty fundamental. Deletion of the article at present would not prevent someone from re-creating it as and when they had any actual content to include.
857:@Volunteer Marek: Since you are not an administrator I think it is important that others understand from where you managed to access the text of a deleted article. As for your accusations of "far-right" apparently aimed at the recent editors of the article, I would advice you to be very careful about such personal attacks, given your block history it might result in quite a hefty block.--
649:
Thank you for your work on the article and the agreement that it should be kept. I'm afraid there was absolutely no intention to make this a POV piece, and we need to strike a balance in the article between the commonly held viewpoint that German collective responsibility did exist and the commonly
290:
as it had been tagged as a stub, although described as a dab page. I might have speedied it as "No content" but thought AfD more appropriate for an article which had previously been deleted at AfD. So I now withdraw my nomination because the article has been edited sufficiently to meet the reasons
584:
I have a request from Col W. for the earlier history to be restored to his user space, but I do not know how to technically accomplish it while preserving attribution. I've never figured out the more complex merge/unmerge procedures. I have therefore restored the entire history; at the end of the
345:
and fix it. An earlier article was deleted several years ago as OR--I do not think it was in fact OR, but rather an extremely non-neutral presentation that would need complete rewriting. I could email it t if anyone wants to follow up on it, as was suggested at the AfD--see the earlier AfD for
319:
Yes, that makes sense. We should close this AfD - for a dab page - as irrelevant now, perhaps noting somewhere that the closure of the AfD is not meant as any kind of endorsement of the current version (which I think has serious POV problems). I guess the issue of what the actual article should
700:
as he is known as in the findings of of fact of the linked to
Arbitration changed his name to "Volunteer Marek" after it. Today Volunteer Marek has, while using the words "restore last neutral version", restored the old version of this article that was deleted after AFD as beeing completely
615:
Germany and most other
European countries, where outright Holocaust-denial is illegal, this theme that "Germans were the real victims of WW2" is the way that neo-Nazi parties get around this law). The *real* article should be about to what extent the German public of the 1930's acquiesced or
908:. At the same time I have not looked at the article in any detail nor its history, which seems complex, and I am certainly not able to say whether it is biased. The article may warrant tagging and rewrite, but that is the matter for article editing and its talk page, not for AfD. --
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support among
Germans for the Nazi party and Hitler. So there's really 2 AfDs that should be taking place here. Like I said above, reliable, scholarly sources, when discussing "German collective guilt" refer to the latter - for example Goldhagen's well known book
198:
This is a dab-page-shaped article (and its creator calls it a dab page - see Talk) but it is not a dab page - none of the articles have titles which are ambiguous with "German collective guilt". If anything needs to exist at this title, it is not a dab page.
234:, so there is now no basis for the nomination. The AfD process has been successful in converting a non-article (formatted as a dab page) into an asset to the encyclopedia, by prompting someone to take an interest and re-create the article. Thanks!
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Let me clarify also that when I looked at the historical version of the article I thought the AfD notice referred to this particular one. I didn't look close enough to see that the old version was subject of an AfD as
347:
730:, which is all about this supposed "Allied propaganda" and how the British and Americans where oh so mean! to the Germans after world war II, without even a mention of Nazi atrocities, or we have the older version
537:
I have expanded the article so that it has more content. Deletion was not required for this nor were the defects fundamental: it was just a matter of taking the skeleton and putting flesh upon the bones.
650:
held viewpoint that responsibility for Nazi atrocities existed only in much smaller groups of individuals (the armed forces, SS and higher ranks of the Nazi party). Perhaps the article should be moved to
671:. I'm beginning to think that neither the current version (not the dab) nor the old version are/were NPOV, though in very different ways. Perhaps having two articles here would solve some of the problem.
616:
supported Hitler and the Nazis and the implementation of the Final
Solution - that is what the sources are actually about, not this extremist right wing propaganda bullshit that currently makes it up.
810:
I stand stand corrected ... I brought it back to the point of
Colonel Warden's edits (and his reply in this AfD of 23:12, 3 September 2011) that addressed your disagreements with the Article. In
843:
2) When this AfD was made, the article was NOT that version, but rather a disambiguation page. So if you were going to restore it to the proper version, then that would be the disambig version.
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victims of WW2" (because they had to "suffer" de-Nazification, because
Germany lost territory as result of the war, etc), which is straight out of far-right literature (in countries, such as
68:
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non-neutral. The old version that by the way was originally written by Molobo, mentioned above. Note the AfD date of 2007 October 11 in the version that
Volunteer Marek "restored".
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what's there to fix? The term gets virtually no hits, and I find no evidence that "collective guilt", whatever the hell that is, is mentioned anywhere in association with
Germans.
160:
127:
567:, both of which cover this particular topic in great detail. There is no reason to delete the article now that it has some content, although it needs significant expansion.
346:
some advice on what would be needed. I see that User:Molobo was blocked as a compromised account in 2008, after previous blocks--there is a long history, part of it at
976:. The subject is well known and notable. The content should be extended to provide appropriate background and more recent information about public opinion in Germany.
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Ummm, as it turns out there's actually three different versions of the article that people are voting on. Also I take issue with the assertion that the version
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to clarify the subject of the article, as it could also refer to German collective guilt in the fighting of WWI, which is much more dubious.
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If it's a notable topic, it should be covered by an encompassing article, not a dab page. I'm not arguing against the existence of a
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associated with wars and particularly WWII, but currently, it's exactly the kind of compilation of related subjects a dab page is
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by
Colonel Warden is a net benefit to the encyclopedia. Compared to the original version from a few years ago, it's highly pov.
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604:- the topic itself is notable and has been the subject of several scholarly and popular works. However, the current version
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741:(I'm not saying I agree with it, just that this is the subject matter). Hence that should be the subject of the article.
350:. Considering the history, I'd rather not restore it even to user space unless someone is willing to promptly use it.
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721:. So I suggest you stick to discussing content rather than editors, lest people get interested in your edit history.
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AfD is talking about. Please do not make major revisions without discussion (esp. to previously deleted versions)
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Perhaps your computer has parental controls or some other filter set? I see hundreds of references to the topic.
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Highly notable topic. Any defects of the current version should be addressed by ordinary editing, not deletion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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For the record, might as well note that the 1st AfD was made by a user who's now indef banned from
Knowledge.
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though to make the topic more encompassing (and thus more likely for a balanced Article). If you dont know
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However, there is in fact a problem with this AfD. We have one version, which was recently restored by
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I think those are reasonable suggestions, as are some of the comments by Tomjakobsen at the first AfD
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Ummm... ok, theoretically restoring the old version for the purposes of this AfD would be fine. But:
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is highly POV and frankly embarrassing to the encyclopedia. It pushes the whole "Germans were the
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discussion, whatever is decided can be done, and whoever knows how to fix it properly can do so.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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No, you don't seem to have done that: this AfD was created when the article was in
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state of the Article, that was discussed (or the generally agree'd upon) version.
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Well, my AfD nomination was on the basis that it was a content-free non-dab page (
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Knowledge:Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes/Evidence
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There have been adequate sources found. The article is fine now.
782:, a dab-like article with no appropriate content for a dab page.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Articles for deletion/German collective guilt (2nd nomination)
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For relevant example see also the German wikipedia version
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subject is clearly notable - content can always be fixed.
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close to 500 Google book hits return results for the topic
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1) Calling that version "npov version" is just ridiculous.
408:- notable topic known by various names, I would support a
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I accessed it from the article's history that's where (
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German collective responsibility for Nazi atrocities
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list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions
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consist of can be hashed out on the talk page then.
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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755:I have restored the Article to the version that
230:- the article now has real content, thanks to
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69:Articles for deletion/German collective guilt
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465:Note: This debate has been included in the
561:- highly notable topic. See these sources:
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911:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
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694:Volunteer Marek was caught proxying
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18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
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969:18:24, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
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904:. The subject is notable, as
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692:- It should be noted that
996:Please do not modify it.
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656:S Larctia
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