2762:." Here is the impact on children as evident by their quotes on what they learn in schools: "They teach us that the Zionists are our enemy and we must fight them," says one 12-year-old boy. Another says: "They teach us that are bad people. They killed our young." Another boy says: "I'm ready to stab a Jew and drive over them." Another says: "We have to constantly stab them, drive over them and shoot them." Yet another adds: "Stabbing and running over the Jews brings dignity to the Palestinians. I'm going to run them over and stab them with knives." A 6-year-old girl, meanwhile, says: "People love Palestine and they are ready to die for Palestine. I want to fight against them and to defeat them in war." Shir Zablodovsky in the article states that the education is "causing children to want to commit suicide...If the people had free will, they would probably not choose to be
1755:- per Zero. There is nothing inherently Palestinian about "glorification of martyrs". Indeed, Israel honors its fallen soldiers as national heroes, so do most countries, armed groups, or ethnic or religious groups. This article is, to be blunt, an exercise in propaganda. It seeks to otherize what is a near universal phenomena. Every war memorial on the planet is a "glorification of martyrs". But, as has been a recurring theme in new creations in this topic, this article seeks to create an emphatically POV spin on something that applies to all parties and pretending like it only applies to one. And it should not be allowed. I doubt it wont be, given the predictable canvassing that has likewise been endemic in this topic area, but it shouldnt be.
2139:
skimming them will reveal that the citations are a mix of heavily biased think tanks, foreign ministries, random miscellaneous potentially-unsafe websites, and various
Israeli media outlets, the lattermost somehow being the least unreliable or biased ones in the article despite many of them being from a conservative slanted publication. It's not enough for a citation to "look academic" or be on a research website, that alone does not make it RS. It could have all the superficial professionalism in the world, that doesn't change that it very well might be from an incredibly disreputable and biased think-tank, organization, and/or author. This dumpster-fire of an article does not meet RS by any stretch of the imagination.
1868:: about 10,600 martyred in Gaza since the start of the war, 40% of them children. The now 6,000 children killed in Gaza the last two months are all martyrs in Palestinian society and they are all indeed glorified as such. This drivel that is being pushed in the afd and the article is propaganda, pure and simple, it is a biased and incomplete telling with some tidbits of truth mixed told in a way to push an untrue narrative. Maybe when this is over an actual article could be created, but it wont be based on this garbage. But also, please dont place quotes around things people never said, it is quite dishonest.
2094:. Just from that information alone I sincerely hope I don't have to describe how Burdman is not offering neutral or reliable work from an academic perspective. I would argue that Burdman's article titled (in all caps) "HATRED OF THE JEWS AS A PSYCHOLOGICAL PHENOMENON IN PALESTINIAN SOCIETY" with the opening abstract stating that the Palestinian nation hates the Jews for three reasons - 1) because the Quran tells them to, 2) because of extremist Islamic militancy, and 3) because
1283:
themselves as fighting for their freedom than it says about
Palestinians as such. I happen to have been reading this weekend some of the writings of imprisoned Irgun members in the years leading up to 1948. The extent to which those members 'readied themselves' for what they saw as their probable fate - the noose or death in combat - was quite chilling. Survivors and future generations honoured them of course. What we have here is another manifestation of
1889:
extend to any person by Hamas own rockets falling short in Gaza? As for "killed by Israel", you're also not telling the whole truth - Hamas uses civilians as human shield, without asking them if they want to participate or not. How does it make any better that they then praise them as "martyrs"? They're dead specifically because Hamas decides e.g. to place rocket launchers in residential buildings, specifically because they know there will be a response.
1477:- as variously described above by others, this is a shoddily constructed, attack-like article cobbled together out of dated, weak scholarship, news and other lesser sources to present a clearly POV narrative under an equally deficient title. Far removed from an encyclopedic build of a topic from the best sources -- composed as it is in the reverse of such a manner -- unpicking the issues would be a more monumental task than starting it afresh, hence TNT.
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Palestinian culture is the brainwashing of one's own child into sacrificing themselves as a martyr. The article at no point mentions that martyrdom of the deceased is common on the
Israeli side (or across other cultures as well), or that the broader Israel-Palestine conflict (as opposed to some essential quality of the Palestinian people) could be contributing to the phenomenon of martyrdom. This page only serves to dehumanize a nation. The basic
808:. To give just one example, there's a whole original research paragraph suggesting that the reason why a large percent of young Palestinians have post traumatic stress disorder is because of the glorification of the concept of martyrdom, as opposed to everything else that's been going on in the Israel-Palestine conflict. Is the topic of martyrdom in Palestinian society notable? Quite possibly. But is this material acceptable? Absolutely not.
2019:. Martyrdom is a major aspect of Palestinian life under Israeli occupation, but it isn't unusual for oppressed peoples to """glorify""" their martyrs. The article itself insults and blames Palestinians for something they can't control (oftentimes being their only chance to better their situation). It also explains the motives of martyrdom as simply being due to the Palestinians' religion, an absolutely childish reduction.
2836:. You bring up a good point, Nasser Abufarha’s book, The Making of a Human Bomb, was published in 2009. He probably wrote it during the Second Intifada because in his book he writes how suicide bombings are increasing. It is definitely good to look at the date of publication for sources because research can become outdated with new information or change in circumstances.
2749:, there are cultural conceptions and dynamics that underlie the motivations of violence through suicide: "martyrdom is mediated through cultural forms" and "acts of violence are already legitimate and culturally appropriate forms of resistance in Palestine." He wrote a whole book about it. The martyrdom phenomenon in Palestinian society is
1150:, whose use of Knowledge (XXG) since 2011 has been exclusively to promote a particular perspective on articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. I was not expecting there to be such a deep rabbithole to this user's prolonged illegitimate use of the encyclopedia. I certainly hope this AFD hasn't been tainted by canvassing attempts.
2075:) were definitely glorified, especially if they took many enemies with them. On the other hand, the violence against civilians was not usually celebrated (unless the said civilians were various enemies of the people - it's complicated) and instead was often denied. Also, the major difference is the role of religion vs ideology.
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Also
GnocchiFan has made the lead more neutral, and I have added to the Background to make it more comprehensive (and added in some Palestinian POV about the significance of their land, historical significance of the Battle of Karameh, their desire for the peace process and independence, how they are
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indoctrinated all the children to do so - immediately disqualifies any and all work of hers on the encyclopedia. Let's maybe not use ahistorical rants from a hard right pro-settlement think tank as an "academic" source on an article about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Is that too much to ask? Am I being
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The main argument for deleting the article seems to be that every society glorifies its fallen heroes. This is true, but this doesn't mean that it's not a valid topic for an article. Each society does it in a different way and these differences are notable. To take the Soviet Union as a example (it's
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the article and improve any problems that it has incrementally. I don't see obviously unreliable sources. User
Vanilla_Wizard wrote that the content regarding the PTSD is OR but it's clearly not since a scholarly article is cited. Several editors noted that the article presents a misleading narrative
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This article is completely biased, misleading, and has no place on
Knowledge (XXG). The phenomenon of glorifying martyrdom is not limited to the Palestinian community, as depicted in Israeli narratives. For instance, the dead of the Zionist bands like Lehi and Irgun are called "martyrs" and memorials
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I see no reason to delete the article. I wrote it after I came across the fact that there is a wide and in-depth academic literature dealing with this important topic. As with every new article I create, I'm always happy to have additional editors help improve and expand the entry, and add additional
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appears to be an academic paper focusing on the "visual representation of martyrdom in
Palestine". I think there is something there, I don't really understand the point that the nom is making by saying there are no RS on the topic. Unless I'm somehow not understanding the difference between the topic
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should probably be added to the scope, since concepts like translations of شهدي in
English and foreign news would be important to include. (I think that's not quite the right word, my Arabic vocab is small and my grammar is non-existent. That root by itself means "witness" and is used as a prefix to
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Since there seems to be an allegation that some of the sources used in this article are fringe, I've had a look at some more academic sources in the topic, which show a clear notability for the topic of martyrdom in
Palestine specifically. Note that I am not an expert so if there are any issues with
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actually no, and certainly not as a distinctly
Palestinian trait. If you asked the youth in certain areas of Northern Ireland during the Troubles or those in South Africa during the challenge to Apartheid, the answer would have been much the same. What that says is much more about what those who see
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This seems to be a well researched and attested phenomena to a particular region, but perhaps a less editorial or leading title would serve us better. Perhaps "Culture of martyrdom in Palestinian Society" or "history of martyrdom culture in Palestinian Society" or "history of martyrdom veneration in
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Being moved by the arguments that it is not appropriate to have an article about martyrdom in the culture of one specific nation as if it is a uniquely Palestinian phenomenon. I reread the article and it really does come across more as an essay that tries to persuade the reader that a core tenant of
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to remove "Glorification of" from the name. The topic of martyrdom is encyclopedia-worthy, but the current state of the article is a POV-charged mess and will need to be rewritten entirely. I don't question the number of sources discussing the topic more broadly, so I don't know that I can say to do
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I suppose an another way I could've phrased that was "I hope the !votes we have so far are legitimate", just trying to assume good faith, but this certainly complicates things. Now whoever closes this gets to deal with not only the obligatory checking-to-make-sure-everyone-is-extended-confirmed job
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ANY reliable reports but I obviously might have missed some). The militants are willing to RISK death but they mostly (at least 99.9% of them) intend to stay alive and keep fighting as long as possible, they are vastly more likely to have a gun or rocket launcher (and body armor if they can access
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is a "neutral, reliable, secondary source"? The article also cites the "World Security Network", an organization I can find no information on, and whose website I can't access because Firefox flagged their website as (ironically) a security risk. Any analysis of the sources that goes beyond merely
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Well, I disagree. I don’t care if it is not a “distinctly” Palestinian trait since that is not the main point of what is being discussed here. The degree to which such “Martyrdom” is venerated in Palestinian society in itself is very notable and very relevant to current events; hence my support to
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His comments reflect a belief among many young people in Jenin that fighting the occupation is their main purpose in life. Faced with a lack of prospects for the future, in the eyes of young people here, resistance is the only way to confront a reality in which Israeli soldiers breach their homes,
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Sources are reliable: the largest group of sources is that of scholarly articles in respectful journals. To count a few: Journal of Political Ideologies, Studies in Conflict & Terrorism, Journal of Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies, Social Research, Security Studies, Terrorism and Political
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quite a lot of secondayr sources, article seems to be describing in a tone applicable and coherent. If you wish to make more accurate, you can add years. Regarding sources, Ithink they appear to be reliable, can you point to a specific source and explain the problem? Regarding title, it's rather
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What is exactly "incomplete" here? That Hamas and ISIS routinely use *suicide* bombings and praise their executors as martyrs? That they brainwashed and drugged people to participate in suicidal attacks against civilians? You say Hamas calls martyrs "any person killed by Israel". Does that also
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as first choice, remove "glorification of" as second choice. As Dl.thinker says, all societies glorify their own "martyrs". The soldier who volunteers for a mission with little chance of return is universally lauded as a hero. The literature on this particular example consists mostly of Zionist
1682:(dying in martyrdom) that arises from social psychological, cultural and political reasons, but the book focuses more on the historical and political backdrop of Israeli occupation. It probably could be used to provide a more balanced perspective/article on martyrdom in Palestine.
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It may be making a huge contribution to ‘Psychodynamic Practice’ or to the teaching of Shakespeare to Palestinians. That doesn't make it a meaningful study of ' 'Perceptions of motherhood' in Palestinian society - certainly not THE meaningful study around which to craft a section.
926:. The attitude towards martyrdom in the Palestinian society is indeed a unique phenomenon, which presents itself in the media, education and finances. The phenomenon calls for an article, and I think this article presents it in a coherent, well sourced way. As per the claims of
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of course. Moe than a notable topic. One may read the Koran which has martyrs as well. (Some misread Koran assuming that martyrs will get 72 virgins but in reality those are just grapes as one can check in Aramaic). Not sure if we need "Glorification" though. With regards,
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Loadenthal, M. (2014). Reproducing a Culture of Martyrdom: The Role of the Palestinian Mother in Discourse Construction, Transmission, and Legitimization. In D. Cooper & C. Phelan (Eds.), Motherhood and war: International perspectives (pp. 183, 197). New York: Palgrave
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Quote: "The teenagers did not hesitate when asked what they aspired to be when they grew up. “Martyrs,” they said in unison, referring to the term used by Palestinians to describe anyone killed by Israelis." Is aspiring and dreaming to become "martyrs" not a sign of
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58:, and that the preexisting biases in the article can be resolved. But this consensus to keep is dependent on the title reflecting a more neutral tone; those in favor of deletion are surely correct that the article should not exist under the present title. Since
876:. If one reads the article and views the sourcing, the notability is obvious and abundantly clear, and AfDing this article based on this reasoning is flat-out wrong. There is room for discussion whether the title is the appropriate one, but that's not for AfD.
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Have you checked the sources? The paragraph I used as an example of the article's problematic nature cites two sources. Let's take a cursory glance at what we're citing. The first is from one Daphne Burdman of the "politically neo-conservative" think tank
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I am not referring to the main context of the article in itself; but I am referring to the clear signs that "martyrdom" is being glorified in Palestinian society based on statements from those children and photographic evidence put in the example article.
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If all we're looking to establish is verifiability, we might as well use Google Maps directly. But if we want to establish that there is due weight to mention individual examples of an individual being made a martyr, we're going to need better sources.
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The article would need rewrite to be more comprehensive, accurate, unbiased, and neutral, and more scholarly references would need to be used. There has been research published on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from social psychology perspectives, as
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It's possible that we can rename, and remove the glorification word, although although as said by Marokwitz glorification kinda comes in with the definition of martyrdom. Regaridng the topic, Martyrdom in a society is worthy of an encyclopedic entry.
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508:. Probably could be written more neutrally but the sources show that this a recognized and studied concept in reliable sources that tie specifically into the national aspect, not just Islam. Maybe rename and deal with some of the neutrality issues.
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No, I did not say Hamas calls martyrs any person killed by Israel. If you are unable to read what I wrote the first time I dont see the point in explaining it a second time. Please dont ping me again with this level of inanity. Thanks in advance.
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Both of these two sources -not used in the article- deal with the topic of martyrdom in Palestine, not the topic of "glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society". Either way, there are still issues with the rest four notability guidelines.
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If anyone would like to make articles about “Glorification of Martyrdom in Apartheid South Africa” or “Glorification of IRA Martyrdom in Ireland during the Troubles” they are very welcome to do so if they think those topics are very notable.
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Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Morocco have decided to "improve their societies by means of educating toward moderation and peace" while Palestine has decided "to turn education into a strategic tool for violence and raise a young generation of
2458:: Clear POV issues with this article which I can understand may make some people want to re-create the article from scratch, but the issue is a notable one. "Glorification of..." definitely needs to be removed from the title though. --
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You have examples of Christians and Jews treated as Martyrs in Palestine? Please provide them! Otherwise, we are doing exactly what you deplore -- lumping everyone into "Palestinians who glorify martyrdom" when it's untrue. Cheers,
1218:, the article is definitely relevant to the ongoing conflict. Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society is well documented not only on the article itself but in many news articles I've seen on the conflict. An example is :
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That's fair enough, if no one except for the Zionist Organization of America mentions it, this particular event shouldn't be in the article. Possibly it's better to merge the notable individual events into the relevant sections.
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That is not a source I had seen and I find it fascinating. I don't think it's RS, but it's still fascinating and I would bet there are RS sources that support the same view. I will adjust my comment above. Thank you and Cheers,
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I'm not sure that your arguments re the reliability of sources are based on the policy. If Daphne Burdman's article were published on the site of the think-tank she works for, I would agree with you, but it was published in
1408:- this is not it. The article also seems more interested in giving - what the writer appears to see as particularly offensive - examples of 'martyrs' being celebrated than in actually detailing the attitude to martyrdom.
2919:. This article should exist, but with a neutral non-judgemental perspective. I have not read it thoroughly yet, but the content seems like a reasonable start, other than the sensationalist and judgmental current title.
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name. the Glorification of martyrs exists in Palestinian society and is well documented. It even caused International incidents. No reason to delete article. P.S. use of the term "TNT" in this context leaves bad taste.
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Take a look at the rest of the sources, too. I'll preface this by saying: yes, we at least have a couple sources that should be fine, there's one from CNN and one from AP, no qualms with that. But sources that pass
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Bilal Tawfiq Hamamra (2020) Mothers of martyrs: Rethinking Shakespeare’s Volumnia’s collective motherhood from a Palestinian perspective, Psychodynamic Practice, 26:3, 248–259, DOI: 10.1080/14753634.2020.1762715
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I can promise you that your unsourced personal views on this topic are not something I am interested in reading. Kindly go share them elsewhere. But, for the record, that glorification in Palestinian society
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The phenomenon of glorifying martyrdom is not limited to the Palestinian community, as depicted in Israeli narratives. For instance, the dead of the Zionist bands like Lehi and Irgun are called "martyrs"
2301:- "Glorification" not necessary. I'd agree with some of the above points regarding sourcing (that some of the current sources do not meet RS), but there are enough good sources to establish notability.
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I feel there is no real difference as martyrdom is the elevation of the individual to a status of heroism or sanctity - which is by definition "glorification". This is true for martyrs of any society.
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some news reports, but I think that's also the word used to talk about people who died in war?) Importantly I only recently learned that the word and concept applies not only to deaths in combat, but
1790:, who they consider among their martyrs. But you wouldnt know that if you read this propaganda screed pretending to be an article, because it doesnt try to explain a topic it tries to prove a point.
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with the associated broadening of the scope (this new article would include relevant info on Israeli settler violence and earlier Zionist militias and definitely help with NPOV issues imo). Cheers,
1529:
Franke, L. (2014, April). The Discursive Construction of Palestinian istishhādiyyāt within the Frame of Martyrdom. In Martyrdom in the Modern Middle East (pp. 190–191, 193–195, 200). Ergon-Verlag
1055:, or another word order as above, is already a secondary concern and should be debated on the talk page. If we partially change the name now something good would have come of this AfD after all.
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https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2023-12-12/ty-article-magazine/.premium/how-unrwa-became-the-second-most-important-organization-in-gaza/0000018c-5deb-d798-adac-fdefaf450000
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Daphne Burdman (2003) Education, indoctrination, and incitement: Palestinian children on their way to martyrdom, Terrorism and Political Violence, 15:1, 96-123, DOI: 10.1080/09546550312331292977
1051:. No particular concern, other than the name. "Glorification of" can already be deleted in this discussion. Dropping this is concensual. Whether it should be Martyrdom in Palestinian society or
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Suicide bombing itself seems to have mostly stopped? Obviously other groups still do it, but I have not heard of many reliable reports of it from Palestine from the past decade or so (I've not
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Meets GNG per sources in article and listed above. Ample soucing showing WP:SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth from a variety of WP:IS WP:RS. Oppose rename, current name meets
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lol I dont think you understood what I wrote, but I dont really see the point of explaining it to you. But for anybody who isnt approaching this with the most racist framing they can conjure (
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Thank you, Makeandtoss, for opening this discussion. If this issue actually has any validity based on reality and research, to take a leaf out of your book, it probably shouldn’t be censored.
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I was just on the Suicide attack Wiki page, and it has a section on martyrdom: “Clerics have supported suicide attacks largely in connection with the Palestinian issue. Prominent Sunni cleric
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I also don't like some of the tone of the current piece in places and would sift through it to ensure it is properly neutral where needed, but not enough to eliminate the piece altogether imo.
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Thank you for linking these scholarly articles: I've added them to the refimprove section on the talk page so that (if this article is kept) we have good grounds to make this more neutral.
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Mm well. Surely there's a big crossover between there being significant public "visual representation" and it being "glorified". Maybe the solution is to change the title to something like
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Hatina, M. (2005). Theology and power in the Middle East: Palestinian martyrdom in a comparative perspective. Journal of Political Ideologies, 10(3), 241–267. doi:10.1080/13569310500244289
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of "We salute the Jihad-fighting Palestinian woman, who tends to the martyr and tends to her husband, and perhaps will become a martyr herself" about a suicide bomber (and much more)
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That al Jazeera article is not about glorification of martyrdom, it's mainly about the lack of any kind of future among these young refugees as a response to a grim past and present:
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2364:(the arguably uniquely Palestinian aspect of this topic). What else is there to talk about? The intent of the article appears to be to say "Palestinians honor fallen soldiers" (see
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I do like the suggestion to broaden the scope to the broader Arab-Israeli conflict instead of singling out a nationality like the current version does. That would certainly help.
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for either notability or indeed verifiability are few and far between, and sufficiently neutral ones are near impossible to come by. Is anyone really going to argue that the
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It is true that even a clearly biased organization can be used in certain contexts for verifiability, but this also puts the notability of the material into question. See
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Meir Litvak (2010) “Martyrdom is Life”: Jihad and Martyrdom in the Ideology of Hamas, Studies in Conflict & Terrorism, 33:8, 716–734, DOI: 10.1080/1057610X.2010.494170
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Keeping would serve no purpose, as the different article name proposed has a different scope from the current article, better to delete this and start from scratch there.
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2766:. But you're born into that, and all they keep repeating to you from childhood is not how to improve your life but how to harm others in order to achieve redemption."
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The second source, from what I can find, doesn't even seem to mention what the article cites it for. Granted, for all I know it might be buried somewhere deep in the
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This article is a clear example of original research with questionable references, it should be deleted to maintain adherence to Knowledge (XXG)'s strict guidelines.
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there are no independent, reliable and secondary sources addressing the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content.
2928:. It is a thing I obviously don't fully understand, but that I - and most other English speakers following the news - would definitely benefit from understanding.
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Violence... These are clearly secondary sources, and they make up the foundation of the article. There are some citations of global media such as CNN and AP News
1500:- the article does reference at least six scholarly sources on the topic, and there are probably more so there does appear to be academic research on the topic:
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The article is well-sourced, and while some parts may warrant rewriting or restructuring, I can't think of a good reason why the article should be deleted.
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Well, you know. This is getting into the weeds of the issue, but it does help if you know what you are talking about - or take the time to research it. Try
1562:- and specifically Coriolanus' mother Volumnia - to modern Palestinian students. It is the main source for most of the 'Perceptions of motherhood' section
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version which costs $ 60 to view. Given the tragic state of the rest of the article, I wouldn't bet money on that, figuratively or literally in this case.
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Martyr would allow for a non-POV and non-advocacy article to be maintained. If Merge is not an accepted consensus, I would strongly support a result of
796:. I took another look through the article and I don't think what we have is salvageable. The article does have sources, but they're cobbled together (
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that comes with any Arab-Israeli internal !vote, but also ensuring the !votes aren't canvassed, and I honestly have no idea how one could even tell.
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This is what you wrote just a few lines above: "shaheed (martyr) is used in Palestine for any person killed by Israel or fighting against Israel."
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Quote "Some martyrs are Muslim, while others are Christian. Some, like the revolutionary icon Ghassan Kanafani, were devout Marxists." Unquote
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Well that makes no logical sense given there a) there are many Palestinians that are not Islamic and b) some of them are celebrated as martyrs.
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article is amply sourced and as described above, more source have come to light. I'd suggest a rewrite, but we can likely keep the article.
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2389:: and fix NPOV issues. There's sufficient RS to establish notability, and more encyclopedic information than could comfortably fit into
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Also - *perhaps* this could be folded into the martyrdom page, but I'm concerned as to how short and cursory that page is at present.
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though, both in its relation to Israel and in its education system, which is having an impact on children. According to this article
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430:"For Palestinians, a Rush to Claim ‘Martyrs’ Killed by Israel". New York Times. By Raja Abdulrahim and Hiba Yazbek. Dec. 31, 2022
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had previously supported such attacks by Palestinians in perceived defense of their homeland as heroic and an act of resistance.
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We can't just merge ideas together because it looks neater in our minds when the facts don't support them being the same thing.
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327:: A banned sockpuppet has attempted at least once to canvass editors with a specific viewpoint to come to this discussion.
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This does not mean any biased source must be used; it may well serve an article better to exclude the material altogether.
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of Palestinian mother's attitude to martyrdom. Would we cite Hamlet scholars to support modern Danish societal attitudes?
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The study is an interesting 'take' on parallels between a Shakespeare play/society and a modern situation, but PLEASE - a
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The article could definitely use some work but overall the topic is notable and the sourcing is not stellar but fixable.
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2340:- There is nothing uniquely Palestinian about what is said here that does not already have an article. We already have
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https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/DSF3255-1-1689160316.jpg?w=770&resize=770%2C513&quality=80
346:- I don't like the title and the way the article is written, however I'm not sure point 2 above (at least) is correct.
291:: sources used in the article are either unreliable or mediocre, and in both cases do not deal with the topic directly.
42:
2510:
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these sources, please let me know and I will delete. I have suggested these for article improvement on the talk page:
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1864:), shaheed (martyr) is used in Palestine for any person killed by Israel or fighting against Israel. See for example
269:
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305:: Most sources are not independent of the subject, many of them are Israeli news website and academic institutions.
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There's significant difference between fallen soldier and suicide bombers who blow themselves up among civilians.
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article does a much better job at describing the topic and there is no need to split it into POV forks. I support
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Suicide, Violence, and Cultural Conceptions of Martyrdom in Palestine. By Neil L. Whitehead and Nasser Abufarha
525:. The article could be written better, but it is sourced and the phenomenon is important and well documented.
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Mothers of martyrs: Rethinking Shakespeare’s Volumnia’s collective motherhood from a Palestinian perspective,
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is a study written by a drama and English lecturer! The study covers how Hamamra presents Shakespeare’s
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problems, from the infobox image on down. In my personal view, it appears to be a well-sourced polemical
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2187:). In one case when it's cited, it's easy to confirm that Yahya Ayyash street exists using google maps (
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2595:""The Divine Impatience": Ritual, Narrative, and Symbolization in the Practice of Martyrdom Palestine"
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its own "Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society" section, but before 7 October already had
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https://www.theleftberlin.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/The_Making_of_a_Human_Bomb_An_Ethnograph.pdf
1285:"one man's heroic freedom fighter is another man's psychopathic fanatic terrorist with a death-wish".
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appears to be a published book on the "politics of national commemoration" of Palestinian martyrs.
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/14/why-do-some-palestinian-teens-in-jenin-dream-of-martyrdom
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2191:. gl/fHQMUobM4wZVX9sE8 - remove a space in the URL, for some reason it blocks the original one).
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per all. I suspect this article would have received more support had it been named more NPOVly.
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The Zionist Ogranization of America is clearly biased, but it doesn't mean they are unreliable (
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From Muhammad to Bin Laden: Religious and Ideological Sources of the Homicide Bombers Phenomenon
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2368:) in the language of "Palestinians revel in death", which is, to say the least, not neutral. --
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Is a picture of hanging "supersized banners bearing the portraits of martyrs" in the article (
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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As for the second example, I couldn't find it in the article as well and tagged the sentence.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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The Polyvalent Politics of Martyr Commemorations in the Palestinian Intifada. Lori A. Allen.
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2535:"Theology and power in the Middle East: Palestinian martyrdom in a comparative perspective"
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more distant in time and won't be as controversial, I hope), the fallen soldiers (real or
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Martyrdom and Visual Representations of the Palestinian Islamic Movements. Attila Kovács.
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could help with the cleanup process. In the meantime, we can at least improve the title.
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as a middle-ground position between deleting and keeping, but my preference is now to
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an outright delete on notability. That said, there's a fair case to be made that some
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298:: Most sources are not secondary, many of them primary reporting on violent incidents
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That’s interesting. I wonder how it even got published in ‘Psychodynamic Practice’.
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I also agree that broadening the scope would be a good direction for this article.
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is the archived version of the WSN website, so at the very least it's not a hoax.
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is used in Palestine for any person killed by Israel or fighting against Israel.
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extends to children who are willing to execute suicide attacks when they grow up
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906:
2276:, proposed change would alter the topic of the article to a different subject.
1976:. Many editors argue that MEMRI has a history of providing misleading coverage.
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are responsible for a number of suicide attacks, matching their official name.
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attacking an entire society for the views of a group within it. However, there
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Female Martyrdom: The Ultimate Embodiment of Islamic Existence? By Rivka Yadlin
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If you wish to dismiss these as "Jewish propaganda", here's Hamas own leaders
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1124:. I have no way of knowing whether I was the only one or why I was chosen.
1336:"Glorification of martyrdom in nations who see themselves as under threat"
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Is aspiring and dreaming to become "martyrs" not a sign of glorification?
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account has been blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet account, with the
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authors using it to dehumanise Palestinians. We should not buy into it.
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as a neutral name for this phenomenon. The topic is clearly notable per
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is now underway, however, no move will be made as a result of this AfD.
2785:. The article is more neutral than what it started out as originally.
2628:"Suicide, Violence, and Cultural Conceptions of Martyrdom in Palestine"
2573:
Heroes and Martyrs of Palestine: The Politics of National Commemoration
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as a section. "Too biased" is a good reason to rewrite, not to delete.
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fighting oppression tend to get lionised in very two-dimensional ways.
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sources are Israeli. Counting, they are definitely not the majority. -
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Articles for deletion/Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society
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encyclopaedic information buried in the article. A selective merge to
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This is pure speculation, but I think I has something to do with the
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oh hey, there are camps for children to play IDF soldier! omg omg omg
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Palestinian Society"...possibly a few more options in that direction.
547:
2344:(essentially, seeking martyrdom, which before 7 October already had
1406:(which incidentally seems to have a broader definition in Palestine)
1404:. If there is an article to be written about attitudes to martyrdom
1261:) not clear photographic evidence of glorification of those martyrs?
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It does appear there is encouragement of martyrdom culture through
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showing the account is believed to be one of more than 286 alts of
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willing to sacrifice their blood for the land.) and taken out the
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MEMRI is also a propaganda outlet, so point very much not made.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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arrest their parents, and even kill their friends or relatives.
260:, which determines if a topic deserves a standalone article:
2512:
Martyrs: Innocence, Vengeance, and Despair in the Middle East
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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The article does have sources, but they're cobbled together (
1082:. This is a well-documented and well-studied cultural topic.
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1940:
You say Hamas calls martyrs "any person killed by Israel".
1332:"Glorification of martyrdom in national resistance groups"
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I don’t care if it is not a “distinctly” Palestinian trait
436:"Martyrdom and national identity". Bassem Eid. March 2008.
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Shaheed#Glorification_of_martyrdom_in_Palestinian_society
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Oh you sweet summer child, that ship has already sailed.
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Public representation of martyrdom in Palestinian society
54:. There is a general consensus that the topic meets the
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and others above. Would suggest as a possible new name
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Journal of Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies (in Asia)
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424:. Some bibliography (there are endless more examples):
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2873:"Palestinian martyrdom" or "Martyrdom and Palestine".
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The reliability of MEMRI is considered to lie between
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So if anyone is interested, here is a book I found by
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that touches on martyrdom in Palestinian resistance:
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Also I was not canvassed; my Wiki email is disabled.
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Article fails to meet all of Knowledge (XXG)'s five
2435:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
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extends to the children killed in bombing by Israel
1120:by email to oppose the deletion of this article by
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1636:Suicide attack#Support for "martyrdom operations"
1324:Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society
139:Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society
81:Glorification of martyrdom in Palestinian society
45:). No further edits should be made to this page.
2957:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1934:Now see if you cant tell the difference between
706:Note: This discussion has been included in the
2099:too picky by wanting better sources than that?
2914:Martyrdom in Palestinian language and culture
8:
1328:"Glorification of martyrdom in human beings"
130:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
551:-- This article is incredibly fraught with
2479:"Exploration of the Hamas Suicide Attacks"
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758:Not a !vote one way or the other yet, but
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674:straight to the point... Notable topic.
270:indiscriminate collection of information
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935:The article is structured and coherent.
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2679:Martyrdom in the Arab-Israeli conflict
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18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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2402:15:19, 9 December 2023 (UTC) ...and
1726:. Transaction Publishers. pp. 295–.
1322:- you have to if you are describing
2092:Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs
2063:without producing evidence thereof.
548:Martyr#Martyrdom in the Middle East
2362:Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund
573:Shaheed with a summary sentence in
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983:are dedicated to them in Israel.
545:with a sentence or two added into
2910:Martyrdom in Palestinian culture
2175:Terrorism and Political Violence
2017:Martyrdom in Palestinian society
1674:(operations of self-sacrifice),
1496:(remove “Glorification of”) and
1450:Martyrdom in Palestinian society
1116:, goodness knows why, but I was
1080:Martyrdom in Palestinian society
1049:Martyrdom in Palestinian society
710:lists for the following topics:
418:Martyrdom in Palestinian culture
414:Martyrdom in Palestinian society
115:Introduction to deletion process
2540:Journal of Political Ideologies
2509:Davis, Joyce M. (19 May 2015).
2136:Zionist Organization of America
2857:The topic is covered in-depth
2600:Medical Anthropology Quarterly
2495:10.1080/19370679.2012.12023205
2352:(which as of 26 November 2023
1571:scholarly sources on the topic
60:an independent move discussion
1:
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2533:Hatina, Meir (October 2005).
2517:St. Martin's Publishing Group
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1678:(the work of martyrdom), and
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258:general notability guidelines
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2926:also innocent victims of war
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56:general notability guideline
2477:Chen, Tianshe (June 2012).
105:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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2593:Pitcher, Linda M. (1998).
2578:Cambridge University Press
2346:#Contemporary significance
2811:it) than a suicide vest.
2553:10.1080/13569310500244289
1812:al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades
1392:per Vanilla Wizard. Plus
1338:. Much of the article is
325:Warning to closing editor
2947:Please do not modify it.
2586:10.1017/cbo9780511492235
1554:Bilal Tawfiq Hamamra's
34:Please do not modify it.
1676:al-’amal al- istishhadi
1386:) to form a misleading
804:) to form a misleading
86:AfDs for this article:
2214:NPOV § Bias in sources
2177:peer-reviewed journal.
1011:Keep - possibly rename
187:edits since nomination
2783:Knowledge (XXG):Synth
1396:As one might add are
844:delete with prejudice
103:Articles for deletion
2456:Weak keep and rename
2189:https://maps.app.goo
1974:generally unreliable
1720:David Bukay (2008).
1148:User:AndresHerutJaim
846:against recreation.
355:and these sources..
281:Significant coverage
1672:amaliyyat fida’iyya
2620:Whitehead, Neil L.
2869:, and elsewhere.
2834:West Bank barrier
2525:978-1-250-08505-4
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1732:978-0-7658-0390-0
1622:Yusuf al-Qaradawi
1301:keep the article.
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274:original research
120:Guide to deletion
110:How to contribute
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965:perspectives.
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903:Vanilla Wizard
888:
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676:Homerethegreat
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2366:Yom HaZikaron
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2358:#Modern_usage
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2096:Yasser Arafat
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1937:
1933:
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915:contributions
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792:!Voting now.
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195:Find sources:
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46:
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2875:𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆
2870:
2854:
2807:
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2021:Salmoonlight
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1970:no consensus
1942:
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1792:
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1118:WP:CANVASSED
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1026:Mistamystery
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541:
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68:Arbitrarily0
67:
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2838:Wh15tL3D09N
2802:Wh15tL3D09N
2787:Wh15tL3D09N
2768:Wh15tL3D09N
2607:(1): 8–30.
1848:Iskandar323
1810:. Notably,
1684:Wh15tL3D09N
1642:Wh15tL3D09N
1589:Wh15tL3D09N
1542:Wh15tL3D09N
1479:Iskandar323
1452:. Fulfills
1429:EytanMelech
1402:Bobby Sands
1307:Vincenty846
1267:Vincenty846
1223:Vincenty846
928:Makeandtoss
627:this source
460:Makeandtoss
372:Makeandtoss
329:Makeandtoss
310:Makeandtoss
303:Independent
220:free images
2921:"Language"
2889:GnocchiFan
2726:GnocchiFan
2674:GnocchiFan
2655:GnocchiFan
2460:GnocchiFan
2274:WP:PRECISE
2249:¿question?
2204:¿question?
2081:¿question?
2073:fabricated
2038:article +
1866:al-Jazeera
1738:August 19,
1708:References
1632:Wiki page:
1560:Coriolanus
1520:Macmillan.
1398:Steve Biko
1053:in culture
985:Dl.thinker
967:Eladkarmel
878:Longhornsg
794:TNT delete
579:. Cheers,
510:PARAKANYAA
2951:talk page
2645:0037-783X
2612:0745-5194
2560:1356-9317
2502:1937-0679
2342:Istishhad
2185:WP:BIASED
1680:istishhad
1498:STARTOVER
1388:narrative
1144:block log
1140:Zapdungar
1122:Zapdungar
836:Martyrdom
806:narrative
734:Quidditch
724:Palestine
712:Terrorism
693:Oaktree b
527:Dovidroth
474:Marokwitz
444:Marokwitz
296:Secondary
39:talk page
2953:or in a
2808:heard of
2705:Vanilla
2690:Animator
2626:(2008).
2570:(2007).
2442:Rosguill
2437:signed,
2427:Relisted
2306:itsJamie
2225:Vanilla
2155:Vanilla
1981:Vanilla
1945:nableezy
1922:Cloud200
1909:nableezy
1891:Cloud200
1886:Nableezy
1873:nableezy
1834:Cloud200
1830:speaking
1816:Cloud200
1795:nableezy
1773:Cloud200
1760:nableezy
1604:Pincrete
1575:Pincrete
1410:Pincrete
1380:WP:SYNTH
1352:Pincrete
1334:or even
1288:Pincrete
1241:Pincrete
1192:Vanilla
1176:nableezy
1154:Vanilla
1126:Pincrete
1101:Cloud200
1084:Zanahary
850:Vanilla
812:Vanilla
798:WP:SYNTH
771:Vanilla
565:WP:SYNTH
557:WP:ESSAY
289:Reliable
266:Presumed
183:View log
124:glossary
41:or in a
2930:Irtapil
2828:Irtapil
2813:Irtapil
2764:shahids
2760:shahids
2743:Comment
2710:Wizard
2360:), and
2350:Shaheed
2324:Oleg Y.
2281:Timothy
2245:Alaexis
2230:Wizard
2200:Alaexis
2160:Wizard
2077:Alaexis
2045:TaBaZzz
1986:Wizard
1964:WP:RS/P
1348:seen as
1344:Boudica
1197:Wizard
1159:Wizard
1114:Comment
899:Last1in
855:Wizard
817:Wizard
776:Wizard
756:Comment
722:, and
648:Last1in
613:Last1in
581:Last1in
553:WP:NPOV
543:Shaheed
344:Comment
226:WP refs
214:scholar
156:protect
151:history
101:New to
2871:Rename
2751:unique
2404:Rename
2338:Delete
2299:Rename
2009:Delete
1753:Delete
1494:Rename
1454:WP:GNG
1446:rename
1384:WP:NOR
1076:rename
1057:gidonb
1045:rename
998:Delete
980:Delete
907:voorts
891:Delete
802:WP:NOR
720:Israel
577:WP:TNT
422:WP:GNG
410:Rename
198:Google
160:delete
2408:Owen×
2395:Owen×
2132:WP:RS
1537:well.
1340:WP:OR
947:GidiD
716:Islam
561:WP:OR
241:JSTOR
202:books
177:views
169:watch
165:links
16:<
2934:talk
2893:talk
2879:talk
2867:here
2863:here
2859:here
2855:Keep
2842:talk
2817:talk
2791:talk
2772:talk
2730:talk
2672:per
2659:talk
2642:ISSN
2609:ISSN
2557:ISSN
2521:ISBN
2499:ISSN
2464:talk
2387:Keep
2377:talk
2354:grew
2329:talk
2318:Keep
2304:OhNo
2297:and
2295:Keep
2285:talk
2270:Keep
2193:This
2114:full
2060:Keep
2049:talk
2040:keep
2036:Keep
2025:talk
1972:and
1938:and
1926:talk
1895:talk
1852:talk
1838:talk
1820:talk
1777:talk
1740:2012
1728:ISBN
1688:talk
1646:talk
1608:talk
1593:talk
1579:talk
1546:talk
1483:talk
1462:talk
1444:and
1442:Keep
1433:talk
1425:Keep
1414:talk
1400:and
1356:talk
1311:talk
1292:talk
1271:talk
1245:talk
1227:talk
1216:Keep
1130:talk
1105:talk
1097:Keep
1088:talk
1074:and
1072:Keep
1061:talk
1043:and
1041:Keep
1030:talk
1003:Zero
989:talk
971:talk
962:Keep
951:talk
943:Some
924:Keep
911:talk
901:and
897:per
882:talk
874:Keep
697:talk
689:Keep
680:talk
671:Keep
652:talk
637:talk
633:JMWt
617:talk
602:talk
598:JMWt
585:talk
563:and
531:talk
523:Keep
514:talk
506:Keep
495:talk
478:talk
464:talk
448:talk
408:and
406:Keep
393:talk
389:JMWt
376:talk
361:talk
357:JMWt
352:This
348:this
333:talk
314:talk
234:FENS
208:news
173:logs
147:talk
143:edit
52:keep
2687:the
2684:Dan
2582:doi
2549:doi
2491:doi
2348:),
2283:::
2279://
2013:TNT
2011:or
1949:-
1474:TNT
1448:to
1375:TNT
1330:or
1078:to
1047:to
895:TNT
765:TNT
416:or
412:to
301:5-
294:4-
287:3-
278:2-
264:1-
248:TWL
181:– (
2936:)
2908:-
2895:)
2881:)
2865:,
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