1354:'s keep rationale. It may well be so that, say, Guatemalan Canadians are a potentially notable topic. It is also true that these articles don't remotely represent an encyclopedic treatment of their subjects. They're nothing but database fact sheets that tell us nothing but how many of X live in Y province. Terrific, so now we know that there are -- or at least that the provincial government believes -- 45 people of Guatemalan descent in Newfoundland. We know nothing else. How many of these people (if any) still use their parent languages? How many retain their ethnic customs? Are there any known Guatemalan communities or neighborhoods? Any notable ethnic folk festivals celebrating their background? Had these articles contained such information, reliably sourced, I wouldn't be voting to Delete.
2024:, maybe we might have something worthy of a merge, but I'd have to see it. Most of the sources are census statistics, imparting no more weight on this particular matchup than any other. I'd argue that we need more reliable sources for 26,000 migrants from one country to another to be noteworthy. Another problem - I looked at the list of notable Guatemalan Canadians, and not all of them are from Guatemala - rather, they have Guatemalan parentage. Since that's the only meaningful content left that applies to this topic, it seems we are essentially arguing to keep a list of people segmented by their parental lineage. Is that the best use of everyone's time? Look at this ongoing discussion about clarifying the citizenship status for someone who is quite notable AND has easily proven dual citizenship.
56:. There is rough consensus that there is not enough coverage of these topics (Fooian Canadians) to warrant an article. The "keep" opinions are in a minority and mostly weakly argued: the screed by PhiladelphiaWanderer34 must be disregarded because of personal attacks (" Knowledge and Slywriter have committed literary genocide"), and the opinions by Bearian and ~Kvng merely assert importance without citing sources. There are a few "keep" opinions that do make valid arguments but they are a very small minority. The idea of redirecting instead of deleting the articles, per
1110:"Reliable" sources? I have to say that a source which starts with the turgid sentence of "Through a transnational lens, I draw attention to the spatialization of Guatemalan refugee and immigrant settlement in Canada and highlight the relatively local and immobile lives, yet highly transnational social relations, that characterize their experience" is highly likely to consist of equally turgid twaddle. Have these academic papers been vetted and peer-reviewed?
267:
just the
Guatemalan and Honduran Canadian communities but all of the Latino Canadians as well. The pages can be added and edited with links and articles of each associated page. The statistics are there to compare and contrast as well as for further research into the corresponding communities. All this Knowledge page is for is to make an fairly easy research involving census data as well as adding additional data involving each associated community.
1897:, without prejudice to recreating the articles selectively if actual significant coverage is found about any of the specific national diasporas in Canada. At the moment, these articles contain very little other than database-type information and lists of notable people of said ethnicities, but no actual content about the diasporas themselves. Some of the content is also trivial; for example, is the press release-sourced content about
1927:
2,000+ hits with the first page of results showing articles on the
Mexican Canadian community. Yes, yes, of course there will be articles about Canada-Cuba-Mexcio intergovernmental relations etc, but it appears that there are multiple articles dealing with the communities in mainstream Canadian newspapers. I'd encourage a separating out of the nominations here. Regards, --
1600:
you are also able to open up a page for each
Departamento of those countries, so you would have Petén Canadian Guatemalans, Sololá Canadian Guatemalans, Retalhuleu Canadian Guatemalans, etc. For that matter, you should also consider opening up the Petenese Albertan Canadian Guatemalans, the Petenese
1369:
I think your comments about X living Y are what is in the article now, not what the sources I've quoted add. I respect your interests in various aspects of society, but those are you just your opinion, you are not making a argument based on guidelines here. The focus of this conversation should be if
1256:
categories. The only reason to have a standalone page on the topic is if the topic itself has received SIGCOV in multiple secondary independent RS. Articles by the same person are not considered "multiple" because they are not independent analyses (not that a PhD thesis cited like 5 times should ever
324:
I would assume the community exists, why wouldn't it? We have immigrants from all over here. Not all immigrant communities are notable enough for wikipedia. Please present multiple sources showing what prominent individuals from the community have accomplished, which would go a long way in supporting
1926:
Somewhat apparent lack of BEFORE here. I find 1,000+ hits for "Cuban
Canadian" on newspapers.com with a search since 1961 in Canadian newspapers, the first page of the results contains SIGCOV articles from The Ottowa Citizen, Edmonton Journal dealing with that community. "Mexican Canadian" turns up
274:
There are similar communities outside of the Latino
Canadian community in which each ethnic group has similar number as low as 10,000 people to has high as 50,000 and no more than 100,000 so should we delete the Trinidadian, the Bajan, the Ghanaian and the Nigerian communities because each community
1850:
I don't believe coverage of specific
Guatemalans, or even groups of Guatemalans, in Canada is sufficient for GNG. We would want more coverage of the diaspora as a whole; simply grouping "temp workers from Guatemala" and "Guatemalan refugees" as two examples of Guatemalan Canadians is OR/SYNTH. Such
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Please refrain from personal attacks like "genocide" and restrict your comments to discussing the articles (ideally with support from
Knowledge policy, not emotional pleas) and not comment on other editors or your perception of their motivations. This is purely about Knowledge policies. I've placed
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If that’s what
Knowledge wants to do, fine, but you’re doing this at the expense of a people and a group and I don’t want to use the word but it’s a very prejudiced notion to delete an entire group because of “ lack of information or lack of literary value”. I’ll have to bring this up to the Latino
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If
Knowledge goes along with the deletion of not just The Guatemalan and Honduran communities, but all of the Latino Canadian communities, then it looks like Knowledge and Slywriter have committed literary genocide amongst a small, but a rapidly and robustly growing population in Canadian society.
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Before looking at the Latino
Canadian page, I wasn’t even aware that Canada had a present Latino community. After reading the Knowledge page, I was impressed that Latin Americans didn’t just migrate to America but to Canada as well and I’ve also learned that Latinos have established communities in
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Mind you, why delete the Latino Canadian page and what’s the purpose other than the lack of links other than Statistics Canada? By deleting the Latin Canadian Knowledge page as well as the other pages associated with Latino Canadians, you’ve practically erased one portion of the Canadian community
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While the Latin American Canadian community in Canada is relatively smaller than the Latino American community in the United States (2% in Canada as opposed to almost 20% in America), the Latino Canadian community in Canada deserves a page. I’m now seeing that this doesn’t have anything to do with
1174:
My only appeal to the administrators who read this is to take this off of deletion because this has become very annoying for people who not only want to learn about Latino Canadians and Canada in general, but understand how immigration does affect different countries. The proposed deletion of the
1166:
I can only hope that the administrators in Knowledge can come to their clear senses and understand that some chap may have a problem with Latinos in Canada. I’m not even sure if he’s from Canada and it’s funny because I’m not Canadian neither but an American citizen and somehow someway one poster
1063:
I'm never sure how to discuss these bulk nominations. I assume because they are bulked together, I don't need to make 14 different !votes and 14 different arguments and we're just picking the top one as the proxy for the rest. I therefore make a !vote and argument for Guatemalan Canadians without
1871:
I don't think any of these should be deleted. They should either be kept, merged or redirected depending on their state. Since you've nominated them as a group I'm responding as a group with something that will work for all in the group. If you want to nominate them individually, for each case,
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doesn’t make up 1% of Canadian society? Or how about just delete the Cambodian and the Laotian community in Montreal because it’s too small for Canada? But we can add certain other communities like the Maltese and the Albanian communities and not even think of deleting their data from Knowledge.
2019:
proposed above, but there are no subsections about specific nationalities there, so merging anything more than the five people would make the target article unbalanced. If someone was willing to undertake the long arduous task of making a section for each of the cross-country matchup articles
1170:
We’re not all prefect and we make mistakes on Knowledge that can be easily corrected, but then again Slywriter wants us to be “collaborative” when he’s vouching towards removing an ethnic group from Canadian topics because in his own words, “there’s no indication of notability nor encyclopedic
1981:
search was not followed. While the articles themselves could use some fleshing out, that has no impact on notability. These are topics with significant coverage in published academic writing and the articles could be expanded if we utilized the published sources available in JSTOR, PROQUEST,
1704:
A merge is functionally the same as a redirect (and well, there is absolutely nothing that prevents anybody scouring through the edit history of the redirects to include the material in the main article). What few have "some non-stats coverage" is not nearly enough for a full article.
1388:, not my personal chiseled-in-granite laundry list.) NOTDATABASE is a perfectly sound deletion rationale, and the way to counter it is to actually provide encyclopedic elements that are not wholly collections of stats, not to simply speculate that such elements might be out there.
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as an ATD and as plausible search terms. These all fail NOTSTATS as argued above; and making them into actually suitable encyclopedic articles would pretty much require a new start from scratch (not that there is much to start with here, to begin with).
1282:
Regarding the PhD thesis, it's actually also a book and I was going to cite it like that, but it wasn't searchable, so I went for the searchable one. But I mention above it's a published book too, so I hope that removes any doubt about its reliability.
1275:
That's a fair point about both the sources I mention being by the same author. Here's a book that is mainly about migrant workers from Guatemala working in Canada, but it has enough coverage of those who make it their home to say it also addresses the
1901:
working at a meat packing plant really enough upon which to base an article on that diaspora? I contend that it is not. That being, any sourced content that is actually relevant would better serve to expand the History section of the target article.
2015:. The last section is a one line mention of a folklore group, sourced with a diplomatic bulletin written by the Consul General of Guatemala in Montreal. Not a notable group, and it doesn't move the needle. I considered the redirect to
1419:
type search, which I've done, and identified sources, and that contains details. They are not in the article just now. That doesn't matter. The encyclopedic content exists. You cannot dismiss the sources I've cited on the basis of
1175:
Latin American Canadian page was the final straw and I can only hope Slywriter gets reported for trolling and ethnic intimidation. It’s a shame we have to deal with people like him but that’s the world we live in and it’s a shame!
1391:
Now indeed, that's my opinion. AfD exists to gather editors' opinions about notability, so I don't quite see what the issue there is: certainly you gave, well, your opinion on the reliability of those sources you provided.
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1832:
That still doesn't seem to be enough for a full, stand-alone article. A redirect (with potential merge for the articles which actually have something to them) still seems more appropriate.
1093:
These reliable, independent sources provide significant coverage of the topic, and combined with what is already in the article, demonstrate notability as per the guidelines located at
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Since 2003, Guatemala and Canada have productively implemented the mechanism of a temporary guest worker program, which has grown from a few hundred workers to close to 4,000 in 2010.
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Calgary and Edmonton for Venezuelans, Brandon and Winnipeg MB for Salvadorans, Ecuadorians in Brampton and Toronto ON, and Dominicans and Colombians in Montreal and Laval.
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from the sources already present in the articles. Even if that were not the case, there are plenty of academic journal articles on these topics in publications like the
1141:
While the second one is a PhD thesis and therefore your question is valid, it was also later published as a book by Routledge, and therefore that can remove any doubt -
1167:
feels that an ethnic group deserves deletion because to make a long story short, the Latino community in Canada is insignificant to deserve it’s own page on Knowledge.
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1690:: That strikes me as an unusual proposal. You're allowing that some of these may have mergable content but you're saying we should redirect them all nevertheless. ~
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So yes, I've read it, no, I've not read all or even most of it, just enough internal searching of it to establish that is has significant coverage of the subject.
1668:, a merge (which can be done from the history once they are redirected) would probably be more appropriate - this can be done independently of the AfD, though.
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piecemeal coverage could be used to justify a standalone on practically any minor intersection (like Guatemalan Ontarians), but there is a reason we have the
2007:
article listed in the next section, Seasonal workers, and there's no mention of Guatemalans. So at least in those two sections, putting those topics here is
1818:
Did you read it in recent hours, I have significantly expanded it and added the exact information that a delete voter said was needed to change their mine.
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1619:. The argument that I hope justifies keeping is that it meets the notability criteria, rather than anyone saying that every group should have an article.
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and by erasing an entire page, you’ve made an entire community invisible by your shortsighted attempt to exclude Latino Canadians from Canadian society.
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because it doesn't break any of the 4 criteria there currently, I think. And it definitely doesn't when you consider the sources I've mentioned above.
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it can be established that the topic is sufficiently notable. No guide specifies that any article must have details about ethnic folk festivals etc.
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Using Guatemalan Canadians as the proxy for the whole group, I find Guatemalan Canadians to be a notable topic, as per the points below:
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60:, has received no opposition, and is accordingly implemented. This allows for selective mergers of content from the history if desired.
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1778:. All of this can be handled through merges and redirects. All of these titles are valid search terms and do not need to be deleted. ~
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Quebeçois Canadian Guatemalans, the Petenese New Brunswick Canadian Guatemalans, etc. Each person is entitled to be acknowledged.
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is the relevant policy. A chart of primary sourced statistics is not encyclopedic content. Also enough with the personal attacks,
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This is just a dumping of statistics from Statistics Canada/ Census. No indication of notability nor encyclopedic value. Fails
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instruction. With such limited content, the material would be more useful and visible in the Latin American Canadians page.
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A total of 5 people? That could easily just be added to a list elsewhere, they aren't exactly notable on their own either.
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Also, if this happens, then I’ve lost faith in Knowledge in providing fair and unbiased information for the world’s masses.
1664:: a select few of these appear to have some non-stats coverage. However, given the state of the target article, and per
1442:
I'm happy to report that I've added in content about folk festivals and neighbourhoods where Guatemalan-Canadians live.
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I am also nominating the following related pages because substantially same issue, they are all either notable or not:
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Legislated Inequality: Temporary Labour Migration in Canada. (2012). United Kingdom: McGill-Queen's University Press.
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article listed as the main article for the Refugees section, and there's no mention of Canada. I went to the
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Here's the section that I created that shows what prominent individuals from the community have accomplished:
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checking if it is the more/less/average notability for the group. If I'm wrong in this approach, please say.
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associations in Canada so they can read and review this literary genocide that’s about to happen today!
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is plain in sight. On seasonal work, I quote from the source, literally the opening line on the source
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https://www.routledge.com/Transnational-Ruptures-Gender-and-Forced-Migration/Nolin/p/book/9780367604035
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https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item?id=NQ56093&op=pdf&app=Library&oclc_number=1006925288
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which is a bona fide academic journal with over 40 years of publishing history. It is published by
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is notable. Not if the article, as it stands today meets notability criteria. We need to do a
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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value”, which is off putting at the most and can be considered prejudiced for certain people.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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1218:??? -- for someone to nominate articles for deletion on Knowledge out of policy motives,
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This was done recently, after the nomination. At that point, it was mostly just numbers.
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notability standards. Otherwise, this is no more than list and a collection of numbers.
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The following PhD thesis about refugee groups in Canada mentions Guatemalans 93 times
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No, they don't. But they really need to have details about SOMEthing. (Those were
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It's not literary and personal attacks are not welcome. No notable sources found.
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1800:; so in the vast majority of cases here there is nothing of substance to keep.
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If you're asking if I read the entire book before commenting on notability - no
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please justify why you think they should be deleted rather than redirected. ~
1214:, because it's plainly impossible -- and what kind of person does it take to
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be used here), so we still need further sources demonstrating "X Canadians"
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type analysis to inform my opinion about the notability of the topic - yes.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Guatemalan_Canadians#Notable_Guatemalan_Canadians
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have received direct, comprehensive coverage if this page is to be kept.
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1999:- Lots to process, but this is a clear delete for me. I looked at the
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Leaving aside disgusting accusations of racism, I'd like to address
2026:
Talk:Timothée Chalamet#RFC on nationality in the lead and shortdesc
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all the others, some of which might be notable and others less so.
2028:. I'm not seeing the point of keeping this one, so it's a delete.
1075:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08263663.2004.10816859
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1732:, I have significantly expanded the article in the past hour.
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Redirect all (merge in the few instances it is appropriate)
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instead of having some sinister and dastardly racist scheme
1615:
There is a helpful essay about this delete argument here
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Canadian Journal of Latin American and Caribbean Studies
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Canadian Journal of Latin American and Caribbean Studies
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I just used the PhD thesis because it was searchable.
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this here so the community can determine whether its
1043:list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions
1796:is not something that can be cleaned up short of
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
2103:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1774:- This topic area clearly needs improvement but
1041:Note: This discussion has been included in the
1009:Note: This discussion has been included in the
2020:proposed for deletion, in articles similar to
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8:
1150:So overall, yes, they are reliable sources.
118:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
1248:. All of this info is already included in
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1975:see this article for Guatemalan Canadians
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1411:#8 our job here is to discuss if the
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2047:original research when the data in
1318:If you're asking if, as part of my
1297:... and you've read it, I presume?
1127:The first one was published in the
1250:Ethnic origins of people in Canada
1135:, the editorial board is detailed
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2005:Temporary foreign worker program
1254:Category:Latin American Canadian
1013:lists for the following topics:
103:Introduction to deletion process
1073:An academic paper on the topic
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
2069:Sorry - but still not enough.
2043:It's annoying that you called
1798:starting all over form scratch
1461:this and also the other pages
1:
1312:It depends what you mean...
93:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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54:Latin American Canadians
32:Please do not modify it.
1222:. Perish the thought.
1212:PhiladelphiaWanderer34
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410:Puerto Rican Canadians
289:PhiladelphiaWanderer34
175:edits since nomination
308:notability guidelines
91:Articles for deletion
2001:Guatemalan Civil War
1899:Salvadoran Canadians
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1133:Taylor & Francis
778:Salvadoran Canadians
456:Venezuelan Canadians
127:Guatemalan Canadians
79:Guatemalan Canadians
1509:Dominican Canadians
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732:Argentine Canadians
686:Brazilian Canadians
594:Colombian Canadians
502:Uruguayan Canadians
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962:Honduran Canadians
548:Peruvian Canadians
1905:
1749:this article per
1252:and the relevant
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916:Mexican Canadians
640:Chilean Canadians
108:Guide to deletion
98:How to contribute
71:
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1965:. Easily passes
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1853:WP:NOTEVERYTHING
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1662:Additional note
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2049:the article
1794:WP:NOTSTATS
1397:Ravenswing
1359:Ravenswing
1302:Ravenswing
1227:Ravenswing
1194:WP:Civility
1115:Ravenswing
208:free images
2045:my editing
1929:Goldsztajn
1603:XavierItzm
1259:as a group
306:and meets
66:Sandstein
2097:talk page
1979:WP:BEFORE
1967:WP:SIGCOV
1857:JoelleJay
1751:WP:SIGCOV
1666:WP:NOPAGE
1417:WP:BEFORE
1320:WP:BEFORE
1263:JoelleJay
1198:Slywriter
1047:Shellwood
1027:Slywriter
1023:Guatemala
391:Oaktree b
366:Oaktree b
327:Oaktree b
312:Slywriter
250:Slywriter
37:talk page
2099:or in a
2013:WP:SYNTH
1963:Keep all
1842:contribs
1810:contribs
1792:Failing
1715:contribs
1678:contribs
1653:contribs
1596:, etc.,
1386:examples
171:View log
112:glossary
50:redirect
39:or in a
2057:CT55555
1984:4meter4
1924:Comment
1820:CT55555
1759:Bearian
1734:CT55555
1730:Comment
1621:CT55555
1571:protect
1566:history
1526:protect
1521:history
1481:protect
1476:history
1444:CT55555
1426:CT55555
1413:subject
1407:As per
1372:CT55555
1352:CT55555
1348:Delete:
1329:CT55555
1285:CT55555
1152:CT55555
1098:CT55555
1061:Comment
1021:, and
979:protect
974:history
933:protect
928:history
887:protect
882:history
841:protect
836:history
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790:history
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744:history
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652:history
611:protect
606:history
565:protect
560:history
519:protect
514:history
473:protect
468:history
427:protect
422:history
352:CT55555
304:notable
214:WPÂ refs
202:scholar
144:protect
139:history
89:New to
1997:Delete
1950:Stifle
1753:, and
1598:unless
1575:delete
1530:delete
1485:delete
1459:Delete
1276:topic:
1246:Delete
1095:WP:GNG
1019:Canada
1015:People
983:delete
937:delete
891:delete
845:delete
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753:delete
707:delete
661:delete
615:delete
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523:delete
477:delete
431:delete
387:Delete
246:WP:GNG
186:Google
148:delete
58:WP:ATD
2009:WP:OR
1592:views
1584:watch
1580:links
1547:views
1539:watch
1535:links
1502:views
1494:watch
1490:links
1210:Yes,
1000:views
992:watch
988:links
954:views
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862:views
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436:links
229:JSTOR
190:books
165:views
157:watch
153:links
16:<
2061:talk
2011:and
1988:talk
1982:etc.
1954:talk
1933:talk
1906:Kinu
1878:talk
1874:Kvng
1861:talk
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1780:Kvng
1772:Keep
1763:talk
1747:Keep
1738:talk
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1696:talk
1692:Kvng
1674:talk
1649:talk
1625:talk
1607:talk
1588:logs
1562:talk
1558:edit
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1376:talk
1333:talk
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1267:talk
1202:talk
1181:talk
1156:talk
1137:here
1102:talk
1068:Keep
1051:talk
1031:talk
996:logs
970:talk
966:edit
950:logs
924:talk
920:edit
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878:talk
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222:FENS
196:news
161:logs
135:talk
131:edit
1944:to
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236:TWL
169:– (
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