1628:. We have said, repeatedly, that article for BOTH Palestinians and Israelis killed that show no lasting impact do not belong. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has said that this is only true for Jewish victims of Palestinian violence. It is likewise true for Palestinian victims of Israeli violence. The point that was actually made which you apparently failed to understand, and not the one that didnt impress you, was that if somebody were interested in writing "articles" about Palestinian victims that have generated the same type of coverage as the "articles" on Israeli victims that there would be thousands of such "articles". I use quotation marks because none of them are actually articles, they are memorial pages. If you cant restrain yourself from popping off with bullshit accusations because of an apparent inability to actually understand what people are writing then I am quite happy that I failed to
377:. But there have been nearly 5000 Palestinians killed by Israeli forces since early 2008. Another 40 have been killed by Israeli settlers. I could, if I were so inclined, find sources from the BBC, AFP, Haaretz, al-Jazeera, Maan, ... for a large number of those, and I could, if I were so inclined, write an article using those sources. I dont. Because those arent articles that belong in an encyclopedia. Last year, 516 people were murdered in the city of Chicago, my hometown. I could find sources for most of them and write an article. But that would not make it an encyclopedia article, any more than any of the series of articles created about Israeli victims. This is, supposedly, an encyclopedia. No real encyclopedia would have an article on Asher and Yonatan Palmer.
578:(I get over 3 million hits). Supporters of the Palestinian position vis-a-vis Israel's claim that Israel uses "disproportionate force" against children or adults that throw stones, that rock-throwing is an innocuous activity rarely causing casualties. The Israelis do not see it that way, and these deaths by stone demonstrate that rock-throwing is NOT innocuous and provide justification for Israel to prosecute rock throwers of whatever age. It is understandable that partisans of the opposing side would want to make this evidence of the lethality of rock-throwing to go away, and that could well be the basis for some of the DELETE votes above.
1492:
hands of
Palestinians. Not posting the AfD in these cases would be administratively more efficient and it would save time. That is just how it is. Procedures need to deal with how the ARBPIA topic area actually is rather how it should be. Approximately no one is reading the article so it doesn't matter whether it is deleted or retained. The only effect of this AfD is that it has reactivated a near dormant likely sockpuppet of a topic banned editor involved in the CAMERA infilitration campaign and a likely sockpuppet of another topic banned editor that has been dormant for months. It would have been better if that hadn't happened.
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955:. Yes, the event was covered in diverse sources. And yes, the event's coverage has lasted for some period of time (but only because the trial continues and has not yet concluded). But the event has not proven to have any lasting effect. (Will any laws be changed because of this event? Will the conflict between Israel and Palestine be affected one iota by this event?) Nor has the event had any broad geographic effect. (No one outside of the immediate neighborhood where the event occurred has been affected by the event.) So, in the broad sense of
327:- this has 0 chance of being deleted, but it fails NOTNEWS. No persistent coverage. Users will say but it is covered in all these newspapers. Yes, I know that. So is every announcement of a settlement expansion, so are most Palestinians killed by Israeli forces, so are many attacks on olive groves by settlers. These are specific incidents in a more general topic. That general topic is what should be in an "encyclopedia". These articles belong on a memorial site, not Knowledge.
452:- Despite both Israelis and Palestinians thinking everything they do to each other is of earth-shattering importance, it really isn't. This is routine news coverage of a tragic event. No lasting significance, no impact on the larger world or even the local one. People died, people were arrested, and sentenced. Over and out.
1433:) until someone senior nudges the editors to alter at least that. I could write several articles a week like these, for the other side. I don't and have advised others not to do so, or get sucked into this game. I once even experimented to see how reactions would turn out if I wrote up an incident-type hitting the other side (
1364:. Wouldn't it be administratively more efficient and time-saving just to post an exception notice that says:'All articles created to deal with Israeli deaths at the hands of Palestinians need not be challenged because they are invariably passed by an automatic majority, and are all newsworthy, so neither
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Yes, given that you insist on demeaning the opinion of everyone that dares to disagree with you as to the outcome of this AfD, I guess this conversation is pointless, unless you are willing to consider toning down the rhetoric. As I said before, I apologize if my comment, which I have struck, was in
1491:
Try looking for the things you aren't seeing rather than drawing conclusions based on all you are seeing. Nishidani's point is entirely rational. If AfDs have a near zero chance of resulting in delete there is no point posting them. That is certainly the case for articles about
Israeli deaths at the
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Dedicated articles about events like these are a playground for agenda driven editors. If
Knowledge's objective were to demonize people and exploit the death of innocents as part of a pointless and disruptive information war or if the notability of victimhood was meant to be established by ethnicity
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is neatly sidestepped by militant POV-pushers, since you no longer have to give an overall picture or context, but just keep piling on articles on victims on one side. If this was a partisan tit-for-tat war, Opportunidaddy, the
Palestinian POV-pushers would win hands down for sheer volume of tragic
607:
Under
Israeli military order 1651, throwing stones is an offence which can see a child as young as 14 sentenced to 10 years behind bars if it is directed at a person with the intent to harm, or up to 20 years if thrown at a vehicle. DCI says children as young as 12 can be tried in Israeli military
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The tragic event is clearly notable, as per Shrike. The attacks that may or may not occur on
Palestinians are a separate situation and do not affect the notability of this event. Also, they were not presented in a reliable or unbiased manner, and I'm not impressed by the attempts to obfuscate the
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The evidence is all above. I might not have even bothered to !vote here if I hadn't been so disgusted with the fact that an AfD regarding an article about murdered Jews was being used as a platform to redirect the focus toward perceived injustices against
Palestinians. Also, note that I said the
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In
October, 1998, Hammel visited his sister, Kama, at Itamar and then set out on foot, knapsack on his back, to Avri Ran's farm. On the way, he encountered a 77-year-old Palestinian, Mohammed Suleiman a-Zalmut, from the nearby village of Beir Fouriq. For reasons that are unclear, Hammel smashed
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pretty obviously apply here. If these deaths weren't surrounded by the obvious IP-conflict issues, the article would have never been started. For couple seconds I was wondering whether these death might become "of historical significance" and gain notability in future, but given that the deaths
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I'm not on wikipedia to "help myself" but to contribute to encyclopedic-quality articles. It's not 'snarky' to familiarize oneself with an on-going problem, and a pattern of support. The only improvement is that these template articles started out invariably with a header speaking of
372:
Because al-Mughrabi's death had lasting significance and was the subject of in-depth coverage over a long period of time due to the
Israeli cover-up. As for Odeh, get real. That is perhaps the most famous image from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That would be a bit like deleting
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1437:) and even forewarned admins I'd do so. Unfortunately for that project, far too many articles appeared which transformed the incident into a major episode, so my experiment failed. But compare that page with the kind of stuff you get on this kind of page.
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I think my comment was actually a good deal better than the nomination itself. The press coverage was quite substantial, beyond the level that anyone could fairly characterize as routine. Therefore the subject is notable. What more argument is needed?
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A listing in
Gilbert's "atlas" alongside other listed events that similarly would not meet notability requirements for a stand alone article such as an Abbas appearance at the UN, an Israeli announcement of settlement expansion, a Quartet statement
700:: Nishidani's argument is perhaps one of the most convincing I've ever read on those delete pages. Perhaps I am a bit biased because I already voted on the same side as he/she did, but if I were to vote again, I'd base it on what they said. Cheers,
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For instance you can firebomb (a form of throwing) a Palestinian taxi and seriously injure its occupants, have your DNA found on the site, and yet have the case dropped for ‘lack of evidence’, if you have the right ethnic makeup, i.e. you aren’t an
608:
courts and imprisoned without charge for up to 188 days, although most are detained for between two weeks and 10 months. Rock throwing for Palestinians carries a heavy sentence, under military law, and some 700 are arrested for the offence each year
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1159:. Arguments along the lines of "but no one is reading it" are not grounded in any policy as a reason for deletion, nor are arguments that other, perhaps equally deserving articles about other deaths have not yet been written.
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Y'know, when I have an AfD on the watchlist and I see someone's entry clocking in at around 174 bytes, the immediate assumption is "this is going to be crap". I am rarely disappointed. Try to provide something more than
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All I'm seeing here is someone who appears to have an anti-Jewish bias injecting that apparent bias into this discussion. I am not impressed. It's not my fault if you chose not to write articles "for the other side".
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You still dont have a clue about what you are talking about. That hasnt stopped you before, so I doubt me saying anything here will stop you in the future. So for once you are right, the "conversation" is pointless.
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Who else was killed in the conflict on the same day, 23 September 2011 ? One man, mid-30s, father of seven, shot near Qusra in the West Bank. Quick search for sources that covered the killing; United Nations
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if they have widespread (national or international) impact and were very widely covered in diverse sources, especially if also re-analyzed afterwards (as described below)."-this criterion was clearly met.
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Jewish settlers throw rocks at the IDF and aren’t prosecuted This rule is almost always ignored if the rock throwers are Jewish settlers on expropriated Palestinian land, chucking rocks at the IDF
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into the comment twenty minutes after I made the post. On the substantive point as two whether these two sources are evidence of "enduring notability" I would say no. Your source
469:. As per Shrike. Was discussed in scholarly sources not contemporaneously to attack. I don't see any deletion discussion on terrorist attacks in which Jews weren't the victims. --
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an anti-Jewish bias. I could be wrong about that, and if so I apologize, but that was how they came across to someone who had no real prior involvement in related discussions.
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As Nableezy notes, there are thousands of similar incidents of Palestinian deaths one could write up as single page incidents such as the case of Mohammed Suleiman a-Zalmut.
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200:. The deaths of these two Israelis, while tragic, was the topic of newspaper coverage at the moment, but has not resulted in any lasting effects of historic significance.
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1329:." The incident is covered by major media in at least two countries. I do also think the international aspects of the case do strength the notabilty of this article.
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See, this is what passes for standard discourse around here now; editors get to freely toss around charges of antisemitism (couched in cover-your-ass verbiage like "
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Notable topic, subject of in-depth AND persistent coverage by reliable sources worldwide. The "impact" section lists several significant results of this attack.
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1516:????? And the evidence for that bullshit charge is what exactly? Or did it become standard practice to accuse others of antisemitism with no basis around here?
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for instance characterizes the incident as a "setback" to the "hopes" of "direct Israeli-Palestinian talks". The argument for deletion is that the incident
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in Knowledge links to this article. Secondly, rock-throwing in the Israel-Palestine conflict is a controversial and much discussed issue. This is easily
1149:- obviously received extensive international coverage at the time of the event, and continues to be covered two years later, as documented by Shrike, in
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Yes, Im the one that said that I think the people who disagree with me are racists. I must have forgotten. Sorry about that demeaning comment, really.
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Whatever, the conversation is pointless anyway. The consensus is clear the event is noteworthy and you have a hard time respecting that.
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Does the fact it changed the IDF policies and was a source of the police spoksman invesigation make it with a political siginificance ?
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occurred in 09/11 and this article wasn't started till 08/12, it seems obvious that this will remain a minor event.
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notable high-profile attack which had persistent coverage in prominent reliable secondary sources worldwide.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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or shoot an old man on a donkey, Ali el Harib, and never be tried for 'lack of evidence'.
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406:. Tragic, to say the least, but no historical or major political significance. Cheers,
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Incorrect. The source was not "presented above" at the time I made my comment. Shrike
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599:, if you are serious about encyclopedic quality articles, Opportunidaddy and co. I.e.
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as a platform to redirect the focus toward perceived injustices against Palestinians
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837:. The subject received a great deal of attention and is certainly notable.
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incidents in their favour. They refrain from this generally, fortunately.
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based sampling of RS, I might vote keep. But at the moment they aren't.
1602:", etc...) without repercussion. AutomaticStrikeout did it just now,
1835:"has not resulted in any lasting effects of historic significance"
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The article is well written and well sourced, and according to
1105:. For the coverage in Knowledge, see last but one paragraph in
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I hope no one does that. The one-off incident strategy means
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Morever it clear meet the general notability criteria per
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Somehow, I don't think your post is exactly NPOV either.
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498:. As for the last sentence, yeah ok. Whatever you say.
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only from the last month so it was not routine event.--
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You aren't helping yourself with the snarky attitude.
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Rock-throwing incidents in the Occupied Territories
722:Significant murder case that had alot of coverage
1837:to which I would counter that a setback to talks
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1872:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1218:list of Palestine-related deletion discussions
752:A brief mention in a Gerald Steinberg Op-Ed.
570:A couple of points not made before: Firstly,
224:and appears in books by experts in the field
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1256:Note: This debate has been included in the
1236:Note: This debate has been included in the
1216:Note: This debate has been included in the
1196:Note: This debate has been included in the
1829:There isn't a valid argument for deletion.
1258:list of People-related deletion discussions
1198:list of Israel-related deletion discussions
885:Yes indeed it was not routine coverage and
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1238:list of Crime-related deletion discussions
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939:) and others appear to be missing is that
778:memorial service was held four months ago
279:Obviously a notable event, covered by CNN
1177:Wow, after 101 edits you know all that?
997:is quite clear on this "Events are also
521:Here is another example of mentioning
494:Mentioned in a list of events is not
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1624:Sherlock, we havent been using this
1281:discussion by changing the subject.
1429:(one or two still survive i.e. The
347:So why you didn't voted delete for
1114:Deaths of Asher and Yonatan Palmer
248:The issue is still is reported by
76:Deaths of Asher and Yonatan Palmer
68:Deaths of Asher and Yonatan Palmer
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959:, this event fails the criteria.
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
807:went back to insert the source
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979:Notability is not temporary.
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1841:of historical significance.
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198:Knowledge is not a newspaper
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1051:, The Sydney Morning Herald
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774:source from only last month
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637:Zalmut's skull with a rock.
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993:I think you wrong on this
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1861:Please do not modify it.
1431:Murder of Shalhevet Pass
355:articles for deletion?--
32:Please do not modify it.
1116:? Approximately no one.
282:and a host of others.
252:even after two years
1814:The Editorial Voice
1810:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS
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1604:Baseball Bugs
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854:WP:ITSNOTABLE
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772:Incorrect. A
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136:Find sources:
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1497:Sean.hoyland
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541:
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482:(yada, yada)
470:
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329:
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196:
184:
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163:
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151:
145:
135:
122:
49:
47:
31:
28:
1831:This source
724:Crystalfile
572:Quite a lot
550:WP:COATRACK
161:free images
54:Mark Arsten
1596:it appears
1331:Grrahnbahr
1086:, Yahoo/AP
1080:, B'Tselem
1057:, Haaretz
1040:- NOTNEWS
941:WP:DIVERSE
889:was met.--
887:WP:DIVERSE
856:, please.
546:WP:NOTNEWS
404:WP:NOTNEWS
353:Faris Odeh
222:WP:DIVERSE
1866:talk page
1713:Strikeout
1707:Automatic
1658:Strikeout
1652:Automatic
1547:Strikeout
1541:Automatic
1463:Strikeout
1457:Automatic
1439:Nishidani
1397:Strikeout
1391:Automatic
1374:Nishidani
1348:Marokwitz
1291:Strikeout
1285:Automatic
1262:• Gene93k
1242:• Gene93k
1222:• Gene93k
1202:• Gene93k
1161:All Rows4
1083:, IDFblog
962:WikiDan61
873:Everyking
839:Everyking
668:Strikeout
662:Automatic
646:Nishidani
496:discussed
203:WikiDan61
37:talk page
1868:or in a
1843:Bus stop
1781:Ynhockey
1745:nableezy
1691:nableezy
1637:nableezy
1600:it seems
1521:nableezy
1366:WP:EVENT
1182:nableezy
995:WP:EVENT
967:ReadMe!!
957:WP:EVENT
953:WP:EVENT
943:is just
937:contribs
576:Googled.
503:nableezy
382:nableezy
375:Tank Man
332:nableezy
208:ReadMe!!
120:View log
39:or in a
1703:error.
1630:impress
1606:did it
1533:editor
1362:Comment
1323:WP:N/CA
1102:PressTV
1096:, MSNBC
1075:, JPost
923:Comment
795:Morpork
698:Comment
641:WP:NPOV
544:- Yup.
519:Comment
402:as per
314:Morpork
167:WP refs
155:scholar
93:protect
88:history
1427:murder
1157:WP:GNG
1054:, Ynet
1038:Delete
1010:Shrike
1006:WP:GNG
927:Shrike
891:Shrike
814:Dlv999
754:Dlv999
737:Delete
593:Delete
555:NickCT
542:Delete
526:Shrike
478:crewer
450:Delete
400:Delete
357:Shrike
325:Delete
257:Shrike
229:Shrike
139:Google
97:delete
1827:Keep.
1632:you.
1107:Qusra
1099:, Fox
1063:, BBC
1018:WP:RX
949:three
925:What
899:WP:RX
534:WP:RX
365:WP:RX
265:WP:RX
250:WP:RS
237:WP:RX
182:JSTOR
143:books
127:Stats
114:views
106:watch
102:links
16:<
1847:talk
1818:talk
1806:Keep
1797:talk
1789:Keep
1777:Keep
1616:talk
1612:Tarc
1598:", "
1504:talk
1443:talk
1378:talk
1368:nor
1352:talk
1344:Keep
1335:talk
1319:Keep
1278:Keep
1266:talk
1246:talk
1226:talk
1206:talk
1165:talk
1147:Keep
1135:talk
1093:, AP
1014:talk
985:talk
931:talk
895:talk
877:talk
862:talk
858:Tarc
843:talk
835:Keep
818:talk
786:Ankh
758:talk
749:ect.
728:talk
720:Keep
650:talk
621:Arab
584:talk
568:Keep
559:talk
548:and
530:talk
473:brew
467:Keep
458:talk
454:Tarc
435:talk
361:talk
305:Ankh
297:Keep
288:talk
277:Keep
261:talk
233:talk
218:Keep
175:FENS
149:news
110:logs
84:talk
80:edit
58:talk
50:keep
1839:is
1152:or
1008:.--
947:of
945:one
626:Or
189:TWL
118:– (
1849:)
1820:)
1812:.
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179:·
171:·
164:·
158:·
152:·
146:·
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123:·
116:)
78:(
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