387:#2 just for existing. The amount of sourcing shown here is not enough to get him over the bar, however — it simply amounts to the expected and routine local coverage that every mayor of everywhere could always show, with the only source that looks even slightly out of the ordinary on the surface (because the citation is to the Associated Press rather than a specific newspaper in Renton's local media landscape) being one that just namechecks his existence in the process of being primarily about something else besides him. So it doesn't assist his notability at all, and none of the other sources are "out of the ordinary" enough.
668:, rather than relying solely on election results and articles about him cutting the ribbon to officially open a dog park — the question of whether the sourcing is localized or nationalized carries more weight in some situations (e.g. small towns) than others (e.g. cities that are large enough to claim some degree of prominence in their own right), but isn't necessarily always as important as the question of whether it adds anything
590:
be considered in evaluating the merits of the AfD. As I alluded to, there is also a decent amount of coverage of the mayor (and the mayor's actions in Renton) in the
Seattle Times. And while some of the coverage is of the more routine nature, but included is also coverage of the mayor's state of the city addresses (which show priorities and accomplishments), and actions and issues that the city and the mayor were involved in. --
807:. I do not believe it is our job to determine whether the subject did something remarkable or not, nor should we consider geography as a reason to include or exclude a topic. I'm not sure why I'm so passionate about this article, but I feel if this article (in its current form nearly 500 words about different parts of his career , and greater than a
492:
glancing namecheck of the mayor's existence in an article about something else, and having one full-on biography of the mayor published in book form can potentially count for more than ten newspaper articles.) The ultimate test is whether the sources support enough substance about the mayor to make the article worth bothering to read.
589:
The difference is that that for cities of regional prominence, as
Bearcat and I discussed above, the expectation is an ability to write a substantive article about the mayor, including his life and career. Under those circumstances, the volume of local, independent reporting is something that should
446:
him and his agenda and his successes and failures in the mayor's chair. Nationalizing sources certainly help, but they're not a mandatory condition — a mayor can clear NPOL #2 on purely local sources too, if there are enough of them present to support a genuinely detailed article that says much more
638:
article that's actually useful and informative and worth taking the time to read, instead of just a boilerplate "John Smith is a mayor who exists, he used to run a hardware store, he has two kids, the end." The problem with most mayors of cities this size isn't that nationalizing sources are a base
491:
Baiscally, yes. More than anything else, the real test for whether a mayor is notable enough isn't really the number of sources or their geographic range per se — those can be factors, but they neither make nor break the deal all by themselves (for example, a nationalized source can still just be a
647:
the article than "he exists, here's one source which nominally demonstrates that he won the election and a couple of others in which his name gets mentioned in a tangential context that doesn't actually add any value to the article beyond reverifying that he's the mayor, the end". Local coverage
441:
doesn't actually cite many more sources than this in its current form (nine to seven isn't that big a difference, although the fact that two of them are extralocal helps) — but even if more expansion is still needed there, the sources that have been chosen already support a much more substantive
409:
suggests that we expect more than name-check coverage of mayors cities of regional prominence (undefined, but previously considered to be greater than 50,000 ). In this case, as noted, the article contains a couple articles that go toward being significant coverage (about his life), and numerous
537:
I think that there is the sustained coverage of the subject in the Renton
Reporter, chronicling the subject's career. Over the past week, I've been adding bits and pieces to the article, adding sources and details as appropriate. As Bearcat mentioned above, for a mayor of a city of regional
785:
Renton may be bigger than the usual small city we see in these mayoral AFDs, but when all is said and done, it's a suburb/fringe of
Seattle, and this fellow got the typical and local coverage of a term in which nothing really remarkable happened that would make him more generally notable.
241:
says he is not inherently notable, but could be notable if he has received significant press coverage. The footnote elaborates, "A politician who has received 'significant press coverage' has been written about, in depth, independently in multiple news feature articles, by journalists."
477:, an article about a mayor of a city of regional prominence would need adequate sources (in total) that provides a framework to create an article to sufficiently describe the subject and/or their agenda/actions as mayor. Those sources may be purely local, but national sources help. --
447:
substantial things about him than just "was elected and then reelected and then reelected again". For another example of a mayor who is well-sourced as notable despite her sourcing not going very non-local and her city not being much larger than Renton either, see also
519:
The article shows no sustained, indepth coverage of the type that can actually build a meaningful article. The fact that this guy was able to be reelected to office unopposed at one point I think says it all that this is just not an important executive
546:(and a smaller list of articles describing Law's actions in the Seattle Times. The subject also regularly writes an op-ed for the Renton Reporter, and that material, while cannot be used for notability, assists with putting substance in the article. --
442:
article with much more useful and relevant and encyclopedic detail than this one contains. Sources that nominally verify the fact that a mayor won the election simply don't do as much toward making a mayor notable as sources that are actually
697:
crossed the line into keepability yet, but you're definitely moving it in the right direction by starting to add some content about significant things he did in the position. I'm open to flipping to a keep if that can be expanded a bit more.
629:
instead of just once in a while when something especially huge happens. As I explained above, the make-or-break condition for a mayor isn't really the localness or non-localness of the sourcing per se, but the ability to cite enough of
206:
414:
the volume of coverage is significant, especially considering the size of the city and the subject's tenure. What we don't appear to have is any nationalization of coverage about the subject, or a second long-form profile.
339:
nominator is right there's a couple okay sources, but the sourcing's really scarce. He doesn't have presumed notability because he's a mayor, even of a six-figure population city. A couple sources I thought would be okay
608:
a mayor's notability, certainly, but it's not a mandatory condition that all mayors have to have to qualify for articles at all. Even the Bill de
Blasios and John Torys and Sadiq Khans and Eric Garcettis of the world
383:. Renton is certainly large enough that a genuinely substantial and well-referenced article about a mayor could be kept, but it is not large enough to hand all of its mayors an automatic free pass over
429:
Generally, what's most important isn't necessarily the number of sources in and of itself or even how much they do or don't nationalize, but how much actual substance they enable us to say
712:
I found a few sources about his publishing career. I also found a dead link suggestive of a long-form profile in CityVision, the publication of the
Association of Washington Cities. --
200:
538:
prominence, the test is whether there is enough substance to write a complete article. There are (at least) ten search pages of articles about the subject, from his support of a
279:
732:
299:
159:
262:
and routine coverage of the "said the mayor" and "was in attendance" variety. Unless better sources can be found, I don't believe this clears the bar of notability.
539:
91:
106:
166:
543:
132:
127:
563:
I don't think the Renton
Reporter articles show notability at all, as those are articles that you would expect to be written of any mayor in any town.
136:
119:
410:
articles that describe his record as Mayor (from the local weekly - the Renton
Reporter). While we might tend to discount this local coverage as
827:), as there are lots of local mayors (including those that Bearcat mentioned above) that would merit reconsideration under a new formulation. --
221:
405:
I'd like to know what we should be expecting of coverage about an independently elected Mayor of a large suburban city (over 100,000).
188:
250:
86:
79:
17:
639:
requirement that a mayor can never be notable at all without having — the problem is that editors often don't put in the effort to
182:
100:
96:
245:
Searches of the usual Google types, Gale, HighBeam, JSTOR, Project MUSE, ProQuest and
Questia turned up one solid piece in
769:
845:
754:
880:
604:
The coverage being predominantly or exclusively "local" isn't the dealbreaker in and of itself — nationalized coverage
178:
40:
863:
836:
795:
774:
744:
721:
707:
681:
599:
574:
555:
529:
501:
486:
468:
424:
396:
375:
354:
331:
311:
291:
271:
61:
257:
228:
525:
123:
816:
406:
362:
per above. Very little coverage outside of brief mentions, and not inherently notable as a local official per
569:
349:
115:
67:
363:
238:
876:
859:
819:
as it relates to local elected officials (and even then, there we come back to the relationship between
194:
57:
36:
237:
Tagged for notability ever since it was created, over a year ago. As mayor of a city of about 100,000,
521:
307:
287:
267:
411:
371:
214:
564:
344:
803:
Knowledge (XXG)'s notability criteria exists so we can write a whole article about a subject -
832:
767:
740:
717:
703:
677:
595:
551:
497:
482:
464:
420:
392:
327:
75:
29:
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
875:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
820:
812:
808:
804:
474:
384:
35:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
855:
791:
53:
824:
303:
283:
263:
367:
448:
52:. There is a general consensus that coverage is insufficient to ring the WP:N bell.
828:
764:
736:
713:
699:
690:
673:
621:
media rather than national or international sources, because local media are whose
591:
547:
493:
478:
460:
438:
416:
388:
323:
341:
153:
260:
787:
322:
I made some edits to the article to add references and clean up the article. --
451:— again, the difference is that her sourcing is being used to support genuine
459:
as mayor, not just to verify and reverify that she existed as a mayor.
259:, a 250-word AP article announcing the sale of his publishing business,
437:
just technical verification that he holds the mayoralty. For example,
343:, which is actually already in the article) aren't significant.
871:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
848:
to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
757:
to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
693:, thanks for that. I'm not fully convinced that this has
149:
145:
141:
213:
854:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
763:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
227:
542:system in Renton to support the relocation of the
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
883:). No further edits should be made to this page.
731:Note: This discussion has been included in the
298:Note: This discussion has been included in the
280:list of Politicians-related deletion discussions
278:Note: This discussion has been included in the
733:list of Journalism-related deletion discussions
652:be enough for a mayor, as long as you actually
366:. Not enough sourcing to establish notability.
300:list of Washington-related deletion discussions
8:
107:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
730:
297:
277:
252:a re-election announcement in the local
811:) is deleted, then we must reconsider
634:coverage exists to write a genuinely
625:it is to cover the mayor pretty much
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
24:
92:Introduction to deletion process
1:
664:article about his political
82:(AfD)? Read these primers!
900:
837:18:30, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
796:12:31, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
775:09:38, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
745:17:30, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
722:17:46, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
708:17:37, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
682:17:05, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
617:of their coverage in the
600:03:25, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
575:02:50, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
556:02:38, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
530:04:48, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
502:20:50, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
487:20:34, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
469:20:03, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
425:18:59, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
397:17:59, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
376:17:45, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
355:15:29, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
332:15:26, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
312:02:21, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
292:02:20, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
272:02:20, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
62:03:13, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
873:Please do not modify it.
864:04:04, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
32:Please do not modify it.
672:to the article or not.
116:Denis Law (politician)
68:Denis Law (politician)
80:Articles for deletion
473:To restate, to meet
455:about her political
815:and should rewrite
866:
777:
747:
540:bus rapid transit
522:John Pack Lambert
314:
294:
247:The Seattle Times
97:Guide to deletion
87:How to contribute
891:
853:
851:
849:
762:
760:
758:
572:
352:
232:
231:
217:
169:
157:
139:
77:
34:
899:
898:
894:
893:
892:
890:
889:
888:
887:
881:deletion review
867:
844:
842:
778:
772:
753:
751:
660:it to create a
568:
348:
254:Renton Reporter
174:
165:
130:
114:
111:
74:
71:
48:The result was
41:deletion review
30:
22:
21:
20:
12:
11:
5:
897:
895:
886:
885:
852:
841:
840:
839:
817:WP:POLOUTCOMES
798:
770:
761:
750:
749:
748:
728:
727:
726:
725:
724:
688:
687:
686:
685:
684:
643:anything more
602:
580:
579:
578:
577:
544:Renton library
532:
513:
512:
511:
510:
509:
508:
507:
506:
505:
504:
407:WP:POLOUTCOMES
400:
399:
378:
357:
334:
316:
315:
295:
235:
234:
171:
110:
109:
104:
94:
89:
72:
70:
65:
46:
45:
25:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
896:
884:
882:
878:
874:
869:
868:
865:
861:
857:
850:
847:
838:
834:
830:
826:
822:
818:
814:
810:
806:
802:
799:
797:
793:
789:
784:
780:
779:
776:
773:
768:
766:
759:
756:
746:
742:
738:
734:
729:
723:
719:
715:
711:
710:
709:
705:
701:
696:
692:
689:
683:
679:
675:
671:
667:
663:
659:
655:
651:
646:
642:
637:
633:
628:
624:
620:
616:
612:
607:
603:
601:
597:
593:
588:
587:
586:
585:
584:
583:
582:
581:
576:
573:
571:
566:
565:SportingFlyer
562:
559:
558:
557:
553:
549:
545:
541:
536:
533:
531:
527:
523:
518:
515:
514:
503:
499:
495:
490:
489:
488:
484:
480:
476:
472:
471:
470:
466:
462:
458:
454:
450:
449:Nancy Diamond
445:
440:
436:
432:
428:
427:
426:
422:
418:
413:
408:
404:
403:
402:
401:
398:
394:
390:
386:
382:
379:
377:
373:
369:
365:
364:WP:POLITICIAN
361:
358:
356:
353:
351:
346:
345:SportingFlyer
342:
338:
335:
333:
329:
325:
321:
318:
317:
313:
309:
305:
301:
296:
293:
289:
285:
281:
276:
275:
274:
273:
269:
265:
261:
258:
255:
251:
248:
243:
240:
239:WP:POLITICIAN
230:
226:
223:
220:
216:
212:
208:
205:
202:
199:
196:
193:
190:
187:
184:
180:
177:
176:Find sources:
172:
168:
164:
161:
155:
151:
147:
143:
138:
134:
129:
125:
121:
117:
113:
112:
108:
105:
102:
98:
95:
93:
90:
88:
85:
84:
83:
81:
76:
69:
66:
64:
63:
59:
55:
51:
44:
42:
38:
33:
27:
26:
19:
872:
870:
843:
800:
782:
752:
694:
669:
665:
661:
657:
653:
649:
644:
640:
635:
631:
626:
622:
618:
614:
610:
605:
567:
560:
534:
516:
456:
452:
443:
439:Brian Bigger
434:
430:
380:
359:
347:
336:
319:
253:
246:
244:
236:
224:
218:
210:
203:
197:
191:
185:
175:
162:
73:
49:
47:
31:
28:
856:Ad Orientem
670:substantive
662:substantive
636:substantive
433:the person
201:free images
54:Ad Orientem
412:WP:ROUTINE
304:Worldbruce
284:Worldbruce
264:Worldbruce
877:talk page
453:substance
368:Tillerh11
37:talk page
879:or in a
846:Relisted
755:Relisted
632:whatever
613:get the
160:View log
101:glossary
39:or in a
829:Enos733
821:WP:NPOL
813:WP:NPOL
809:WP:stub
805:WP:WHYN
801:Comment
765:Yunshui
737:Enos733
714:Enos733
700:Bearcat
691:Enos733
674:Bearcat
656:enough
592:Enos733
561:Comment
548:Enos733
520:office.
494:Bearcat
479:Enos733
475:WP:NPOL
461:Bearcat
417:Enos733
389:Bearcat
385:WP:NPOL
324:Enos733
320:Comment
207:WP refs
195:scholar
133:protect
128:history
78:New to
825:WP:GNG
788:Mangoe
783:Delete
666:impact
517:Delete
457:agenda
435:beyond
381:Delete
360:Delete
337:Delete
179:Google
137:delete
50:delete
695:quite
627:daily
619:local
611:still
606:helps
444:about
431:about
222:JSTOR
183:books
167:Stats
154:views
146:watch
142:links
16:<
860:talk
833:talk
823:and
792:talk
741:talk
718:talk
704:talk
678:talk
645:with
615:bulk
596:talk
570:talk
552:talk
535:Keep
526:talk
498:talk
483:talk
465:talk
421:talk
393:talk
372:talk
350:talk
328:talk
308:talk
288:talk
268:talk
215:FENS
189:news
150:logs
124:talk
120:edit
58:talk
654:use
650:can
623:job
229:TWL
158:– (
862:)
835:)
794:)
743:)
735:.
720:)
706:)
680:)
658:of
641:do
598:)
554:)
528:)
500:)
485:)
467:)
423:)
415:--
395:)
374:)
330:)
310:)
302:.
290:)
282:.
270:)
209:)
152:|
148:|
144:|
140:|
135:|
131:|
126:|
122:|
60:)
858:(
831:(
790:(
781:'
771:水
739:(
716:(
702:(
676:(
594:(
550:(
524:(
496:(
481:(
463:(
419:(
391:(
370:(
340:(
326:(
306:(
286:(
266:(
256:,
249:,
233:)
225:·
219:·
211:·
204:·
198:·
192:·
186:·
181:(
173:(
170:)
163:·
156:)
118:(
103:)
99:(
56:(
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.