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POVs should be represented (and labeled as such of course). "Incentives for Uyghur women to marry outside their race" -- just say "marry non-Uyghurs", less cringey in
English. Cleanup not deletion. Also, the BLP argument is a bit much -- if we took this to its logical conclusion, we'd have no page for Abu Ghreib or any other war crime with living persons included in the accused party.--
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would be an acceptable term in this case as there is an element here of forcing people to abandon their traditions through often violent coercion; ideological genocide can be a goal that uses cultural genocide as a means, the latter is a tangible event that becomes a page topic. Widespread usage is
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to something less POV. Ethnocide means the killing of an ethnic group. I am not clear what the distinction between it an genocide is, but the meaning ought to be the same. I do not want to imply that what is going on is not horrific; it certainly is, but it is mass re-education, not murder. I
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but reform. Open to renaming as "Accusations of ..." (and whatever "ethnocide"/"cultural genocide"/etc people like). Too valuable (notable) a page to delete outright. However, encyclopedic tone could be enforced -- i.e. '"re-education"', with quotes, not "brainwashing". For example, Chinese gov't
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Yes, but we must have several secondary RS which claim the involvement on these specific people. Was it their order? What was the "chain of command", exactly? No one doubts, but we must have RS telling this and make in-line referencing to them. This page has no "Responsiblity" section. It should.
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For the avoidance of doubt, the horrific and terrible policies of the
Chinese Communist Party towards the Uighur ethnic minority, including mass imprisonment of more than a million people indefinitely without trial, the demolition of mosques and graveyards, and other such phenomena are
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Both "Cultural
Genocide" and "Ethnocide" appear to be terms used exclusively by anglophone governments in the global west. Other scholars have concluded that these events are more similar to "cultural re-education", a la cultural revolution or great leap forward (or perhaps the
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it is still widely considered a deeply heinous criminal act by a state actor. Another term that is also of relevance is "ideological genocide" where an ideology is eradicated through trauma, coercion and selective systematic murder of high level adherents.
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Added "Allegations of" to rename target because the labeling as “cultural genocide” / “ethnocide” are so far only from individual critics, with no usage from nations, major international organizations (e.g. the UN), or other similarly prominent groups. —
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of interest perhaps to the discussion of a name. Also agree that many use the terms interchangeably. Google News suggests that "cultural genocide" is more common than "ethnocide" in this case (Cultural genocide -- 925 hits in
English specifically
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might be a more precise title, but not sure, because this is not just brainwashing, indoctrination and destroying national culture. Things like illegal detention of millions, forced abortions, organ harvesting, and mass surveillance go beyond the
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Merge is a normal possible outcome for AfD, which determines whether an article is kept, deleted, merged, redirected, draftified, or userfied. It isn’t sufficient to think an article shouldn’t be deleted to propose keeping it. —
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as cited by
Jancarcu). As for personal responsibility if its reliably sourced yeah we should include it, but I don’t think the need for that is terribly urgent as this is the sort of thing that works better in hindsight.
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covered on wikipedia the easy solution would be to not commit crimes against humanity. I’m not sure BLP applies here at all, can you perhaps state your reasoning for using it as the core of your deletion argument?
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well-documented in reliable sources. I can see that an over-arching article dealing with all of them may well be justified if supported by sourcing, and I am not sure that there is any other such article on Wiki.
502:- As per the comments above, there could well be a case for merger of this article with another, but mergers have a different process. Someone should propose a merger in the articles to be merged as per
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was personally responsible for the ethnocide. Hence there are no BLP problems. However if he was responsible, and that can be sourced to multiple secondary RS, such info must be included per
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I was replying to mariogoods, I agree with your assertion that simply implicating the
Chinese Government or CCP is not a de-facto BLP concern vis-a-vis its leadership (per
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of describing all of these separate aspects collectively as ethnocide in the rest of the article. A lot of the content either duplicates content in other articles (e.g.
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If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it.
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I agree with your suggestion but find it hard to determine which name should we use, and the move template seems only work well with ccertain title.
469:(though actually this refers to the wider phenomenon, not just the camps, so potentially this is not a fork). Anyway I'm not sure "ethnocide" is the
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indeed uses "cultural genocide" instead of "ethnocide". The other NPOV issues are more cleanup than reorganization than AfD issues. —
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If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out.” (emphasis added).
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and improve. This deletion attempt appears to be an attempt to cover up a horrific crime of cultural extermination, for which
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Notable public policy in China, and decently sourced article. If POV is the problem, that is not resolved with deletions.
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If you disagree entirely with the definition of ethnocide that wikipedia uses it would appear you are here to
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Well thats The Wall Street
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meant that those terms are used for this particular case in China by largely western sources. —
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Now I agree that the article should not be deleted. However, the NPOV problem is still existed.
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for this phenomenon ("Cultural genocide" appears to be, though "ethnocide" may actually be more
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Yeah, that's not what ethnocide is but, nevertheless, while obviously ethnocide is not quite
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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i believed it does not meet WP:NPOV and WP:BLP as it suggests
Chinese government's "crime"
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I concur with Mariogoods' assessment. The current title does not meet WP:NPOV.
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is probably better however many ethnologists use the terms interchangeably.
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or change name to "Cultural genocide of Uyghurs” as that appears to be the
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809:. This is the actual subject of the page. The subject must be specific.
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Canadian residential schools#Truth and Reconciliation Commission
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
624:"Stop Calling China's Xi Jinping 'President,' U.S. Panel Says"
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then, no? Please provide sources to support your argument.
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Kate O’Keeffe and Katy Stech Ferek (14 November 2019).
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1293:- topic is notable, but move to neutral title per
1021:"Cultural genocide of Uyghurs": It seems that the
258:list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions
434:) or is better suited to be in those articles. —
390:list of Central Asia-related deletion discussions
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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1111:of non-Anglophone non-Westerners involved... --
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1155:Regardless, here are thousands of results for
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324:list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions
864:Chinese repression of the Uyghars, 2010s-date
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18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
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807:Ethnocide of Uyghurs in China
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467:Xinjiang re-education camps
428:Xinjiang re-education camps
85:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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