636:. I'm having a tough time understanding standards for inclusion as it pertains to NGRIDIRON or NSPORTS. Given that the database referenced in the article shows that this subject played in a few regular season NFL games, and meets NGRIDIRON, there still needs to be additional significant coverage? I understand that a lot of tension is built up around this issue so I don't mean to stir up the pot, I'm just having a tough time keeping up. I'm not asking to be condescending or anything, just so I know for future reference. Seems like I hear different opinions depending on the users preference.
355:, and that every MLB, NBA, and NHL player also have an article, I believe those of the National Football League should as well per my previous points. I will also note that coverage from this period is extremely difficult to find, even if you do have Newspapers.com access (because it seems that website has trouble identifying results from the period in which Mungavin played), so I believe coverage likely does exist of him.
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whether NSPORT wins over GNG but I rely on my earlier conclusion that language around GNG passing trumping NSPORT failure means that its clear when there is tension between the two which one wins. That is also consistent around many other discussions and conversations across the whole project. We can’t have a permissive rule in one area that doesn’t apply elsewhere.
806:, the local newspapers most likely to cover his college and pro careers respectively, both have full archives on Newspapers.com, so this isn't a case where he's likely to have more coverage in newspapers we don't have access to. We can't write an article if we don't have any coverage to base that article off of in the first place.
767:, where there is significant coverage of all NFL players to warrant a general inclusion criteria. But the 1920s NFL was a different landscape, one where it played second fiddle to college football. "Pro" football was a second job and the coverage was notably lacking, especially when looking at a wider net then local newspapers.
579:. There is no significant coverage in reliable sources, and it doesn't follow that those are likely to exist offline either. Professional football did not receive the kind of media attention then than it does now, not that someone who played in three games in one season would receive much attention now either.
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and that some leeway is warranted in granting adequate time to find sources for historic figures. But in this case, the article was created in 2009 -- giving us 13 years of leeway to find something. So far, I've yet to see anything that would come close to SIGCOV. Unless some SIGCOV is found, I don't
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struck per arguments on my talk page. I wasn’t aware that delete votes had followed the same notification, which invalidates this comment, I feel on balance that the consensus was delete anyway as even those voting to keep acknowledge that sourcing isn’t here. There is are ongoing arguments about
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per
Mackensen and Cbl62. I looked for additional sources myself, and specifically tried to find coverage of Mungavin's time playing for Wisconsin, since players who only played a handful of NFL games often had more notable college careers. I didn't find anything more significant than the one
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That may be true, but (a) it's really stretching the bounds of reason to say that an article can remain a sub-stub for 13 years and still not qualify for deletion under the "eventually" clause, and (b) we have now had several capable researchers (including you, me and TheCatalyst31) scour
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An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following: The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other
Knowledge (XXG) collaborations which may have interest in the topic under
720:) when Mungavin was a freshman. It says: "Mungavin is going to give all the ends a fight. He is a crack tackler and fast." Game accounts are available for the 1920 Chicago Tigers, but I don't find anything discussing Mungavin's contributions. Just a roster listing
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doesn't apply, but FAQ No. 2 of NSPORTS states that "the article must still eventually provide sources indicating that the subject meets the general notability guideline." FAQ No. 4 says there's no fixed deadline to come up with
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see how we can support keeping a 13-year-old substub sourced only to comprehensive databases. I urge those advocating "Keep" to try to find something; my searches unfortunately did not come up with anything significant.
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Newspapers.com (including newspapers in
Chicago and Madison, WI) and come up empty. I don't like deleting NFL players, but we have to either play by the guidelines as they're written or try to change them.
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players and head coaches are presumed notable if they: Have appeared in at least one regular season or post-season game in any one of the following professional leagues: ... the
National Football League
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540:. Sources may be difficult to find for this time period, but given this player played in the NFL's first season, coverage exists somewhere. But again, NGRIDIRON is enough for this to stay.
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provide sources showing GNG compliance. There is some grey area as to what "eventually" means, but in this case I think it's hard to argue that 13 years is not enough time.
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If you can't see the WikiProject NFL is a partisan audience I can't help you very much. There is also a politeness requirement that you violated by writing "Ugh", see
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does not apply because that applies to events and not people. I am not shocked that a football player from the 1920's didn't turn up in "a quick Google search" --
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is only a "behavioral guideline" and not a policy. BeanieFan, don't "ugh" like that and thanks for the re-write. Everyone now please move on.--
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To be clear, I share BilledMammal's position. Given significant coverage, I would reconsider. I simply doubt whether such coverage exists.
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There's not 100% agreement on the point among football editors, but the FAQs are pretty clear that articles passing NSPORTS/NGRIDIRON must
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Meets NGRIDIRON. Not surprising that there is not many online sources for a 1920s football player, but it's likely they are out there. ~
408:, and the audience of the NFL wikiproject is partisan as well. Has also failed to note here that the user made that notification. See
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Would you change your mind about deleting the article if I expanded the page and/or found SIGCOV? For I can do both... eventually :)
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I have given apparently canvassed votes less weight, especially as they are arguing through the SNG rather than providing sources
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that at least mention he played for the team, but those don't even give him a full sentence. And it's worth noting that the
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Yes, its existed 13 years. No, users have not spent that long trying to find sources. In fact, its only been one
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The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline
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player article is the opposite of improving WP, and so I base my "keep" position partly on that guideline.
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no indication that GNG is met, and per NSPORTS passing NGRIDIRON is not sufficient - GNG must be met.
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302:. Unclear if it's the same person, but there was a boxer in the 1920s called Jock Mungavin. See
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Understood. It's gotten dizzying trying to follow the discussion but this is helpful. Thanks!
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Only one quibble ... GNG must be met "eventually" ... and this one has had 13 years.
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763:. I will stress again, that our sports notability guidelines are more applicable to
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anywhere. Please, anyone feel free to expand. Here are the newspapers.com links:
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If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining
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If you can prove they are notable through SIGCOV, I would change my mind.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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two-sentence piece Cbl62 found - there are a few articles like
453:"Notifications must be polite". Hopefully that elucidates you.
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has pretty much summed up my thoughts as well. I agree that
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The deepest coverage I've found so far is a 1916 article (
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from a quick Google search either. All sources listed are
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I re-wrote the notification to be more "polite." See
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310:. Probably not since the boxer was a featherweight?
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43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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82:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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