1440:- I voted Keep in the first round and my vote is still keep. I think it's important to keep the article as she was the first Puerto Rican woman to die in a war zone and the Connecticut General Assembly used her in the context of Hispanic-Americans fighting for the US. I added another "new" cite, that she's mentioned when considering the loss of life by Hispanic-American soldiers... "In 2007, the Connecticut General Assembly was reminded that Robles was the first Puerto Rican woman to die in a war zone because "According to the Pew Hispanic Center, while Latinos make up 9.5% of the actively enlisted forces, they are over represented in the categories that get the most dangerous assignments, infantry, gun crews, and seamanship, and make up over 17.5% of the front lines." I added sources that I thought would be helpful.
1243:, its borderline on sources, the author of the third piece is a Professor of Literature and Chicano Studies at UC San Diego, so I think it carries weight. I don't see why the number of articles written by the second source impacts the source for this subject. I found the first source (can't post it), its borderline, the weakest of the three. You are right the rest are just to puff up the article.
716:, "The story of Lizbeth Robles teaches us much about young women in today’s “volunteer” army," including because "Although women are not technically given combat arms occupations, assignments such as that of Robles account for many of the killed and wounded," and "Despite the harsh realities for women in the military, some like Lizbeth Robles decide to make the military their career."
553:(died 2 November 2003) you claim that she was "the first female soldier of Puerto Rican descent to have died in a war zone" and here you claim that Robles (died 1 March 2005) was "the first Puerto Rican female soldier to die in combat" so which is it? Vega was on a helicopter that was shot down, which sounds a lot more like combat than Robles who died in a vehicle accident.
780:. The book coverage is brief (few sentences). The Denver Post content (obituary) doesn't contain much biographic content. The other sources are primary or not reliable. The award/decoration section is currently unsourced. Where is the citation for the claim "first Puerto Rican female soldier to die in combat when she perished during Operation Iraqi Freedom"?
596:
was born in San
Francisco, California and was the first female soldier of Puerto Rican descent to die in a combat zone. A surface-to-air missile was fired by insurgents in Al Fallujah and it hit the U.S. transport helicopter (Chinook) which Vega was in. She was one of 16 soldiers who lost their lives
470:
The notability guidance previously provided by the WP:SOLDIER essay has been deprecated as a result of this discussion. It is no longer considered by WikiProject
Military history to be useful guidance on the notability of military people, and its use in deletion discussions is actively discouraged by
1203:
The second source profiled over sixty different fallen Puerto Rican soldiers. It's honestly very sad - I read several of them - but I don't see it lending itself to notability. The third source accepts reader submitted articles so has self publication issues. I cannot access the first source apart
634:
That is your opinion. There is a difference since Puerto Ricans have a Puerto Rican citizenship and a limited
American citizenship. That it is about the most tenuous basis for a claim of notability that you have ever seen, again that is your opinion. Yes, I have written about Puerto Rican heroes,
1272:
My issue with the second article is that's not discriminate about who it was covering. If she were the only person featured it'd be a very strong source, otherwise it would make ~60 people borderline notable. The third one probably isn't unreliable but it doesn't make it not self-published,
448:
As you keep making the same comment about SOLDIER I will keep making the same rebuttal, it is MilHist consensus until the discussion closes. Finding one passing reference does not prove that BEFORE hasn't been followed, I did see that in the Books search but didn't regard it as in any way
1329:
issue but without the sources, it cannot be overcome. So based on a lack of SIGCOV and 1E, I'll switch to Delete. The keep votes haven't provided anything based in sources and guidelines to work with (other than what I have in the source table above) and don't address the 1E problem.
356:"A third of U.S. military injuries in Iraq, Afghanistan not from battle, Reuters ... about 34 percent of injuries were not sustained in battle. Injuries off the battlefield often involved motor vehicle crashes; other incidents involved operating machinery or playing sports..."
1071:
Does mention the name and have some details. Giving this the benefit of the doubt it might be SIGCOV, but it is debatable. I added the page numbers to the reference (note: this equals about one paragraph worth of content. 13:04, 13 March 2021 (UTC))
984:
The new sources look like more namechecks to me, not unlike what we've seen with other articles recently added to AFD. Nothing that, in my view, meets GNG or establishes notability. In short, nothing that would lead me to change my !vote.
635:
because they deserve it and I for one am a proud Puerto Rican and
American who wants the world to know that we, the Puerto Ricans, as a people have made positive contributions to our nation even it meant sacrificing our lives in doing so.
619:
so the difference is Puerto Rican descent vs born in Puerto Rico? That is about the most tenuous basis for a claim of notability I have ever seen. I realise that you want lots of pages about Puerto Rican "heroes" but this is too much.
567:
I assume that "Puerto Rican descent" is different as
Frances M. Vega was born in San Francisco, California, went to high school in Puerto Rico, and is buried in Puerto Rico. The article does not appear to describe her family.
408:
Typical of the new recruits is
Lizbeth Robles. Although not from Hartford , her story exemplifies that of many youth who are. A young Puerto Rican woman from a working-class family, Lizbeth was active in her church, did
1004:, the only SIGCOV that's been brought up in this conversation by anyone wanting to keep the article is Andrew Davidson's book source and even that is arguable. I am still a firm delete on GNG/NOTMEMORIAL grounds.
310:
She didn't die in combat, she died in a vehicle accident. The page says "when they had an accident and the vehicle flipped over", so why did you revert my edit and restore the false claim that she died in combat?
193:
1324:
are more right than wrong about the sources, I made the best argument I could (which I knew was a weak one, from my own comments) and returned to see if I had convinced anyone. I thought a rename could deal with
826:- has enough sourcing to warrant an article. Additionally, WP needs articles about woman and people of color, we should not be trying to delete this, especially with such grey-area technicalities as an excuse. -
1583:
680:
Pretty much every state/territory has a first man/woman killed in Iraq/Afghanistan/wherever, and this is not basis for notability. Sources are not adequate biographical coverage.
1480:. I haven't seen the in-depth or sustained coverage of Robles I would expect to meet notability requirements for an independent article. I still think this looks like a case of
1584:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Voices_of_the_Puerto_Rican_Middle_Class/P6enDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=ISBN+ISBN+9781480967199&pg=PP3&printsec=frontcover
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Article about the solder she died with, mentions her name. I updated the link to newspapers.com since the orginal was just to the site and the article wasn't archived.
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1031:
I agree with
Intothatdarkness and SportingFlyer, sources are namechecks only which add nothing, page still lacks SIGCOV in multiple RS necessary to pass GNG.
329:
1415:: Considering race and gender in any way as a factor to ignore notability guidelines and lack of sourcingc is by far the worst suggestion I've heard at AfD.
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292:- Being the first Puerto Rican female to die in combat while serving our country may not be notable for some, but it is notable for us Puerto Ricans.
967:
Was going to close but new sources added to article, and unhelpfully not listed here. Can we have some detailed source analysis here please?
374:
So? What is your policy-based argument for keeping this page? There is a big difference between dying in combat and dying in a combat zone.
1080:
El Nuevo Día is a significant news source and this does have non-trival coverage. I think people should look at this for possible SIGCOV
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especially since it looks like the author cross-posted the link on their blog. It's not enough for me to think this is worth keeping.
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352:- Agree. Lots of officers have died in accidents -- General George S. Patton, etc. Lots of Iraq War accidents just from aircraft --
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Fails in my view to meet GNG. Similar to too many other poorly-sourced articles claiming notability for one very specific reason.
1096:
This is an obit. No idea who wrote it, it is a source for basic facts, but since the author is unknown it is unknown if it is IS
1473:
1000:
per
Spartaz's comment in the relist, none of the new sources look to do anything other than list her name. I don't see any new
491:
Yes it has been deprecated since this AFD was opened, but it was never the sole basis of this AFD, which also referred to GNG.
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Just to be clear, had she not died, her career was ho-hum routine. I'm not sure her death makes it that much more important.
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was born in Vega Baja, Puerto Rico and was the first female soldier born in Puerto Rico to die in the War on
Terrorism.
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due to the notability of her death in combat service, her race, gender make combined case of GNG, cited in them all per
938:- I found more reliable sourcing and added to the article. She is a notable soldier with coverage in Reliable Sources.--
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If there is a consensus on a redirect target, I would support a redirect. (comment added 13:33, 14 March 2021 (UTC))
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TimothyBlue thanks, but your table clearly shows that there isn't SIGCOV in multiple RS necessary to satisfy GNG.
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which lacks consensus and so is not a valid reason to delete. It is easy to find sources for the subject such as
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232:. The first female Puerto Rican to die in Operation Iraqi Freedom (vehicle accident, not combat) is not notable.
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1501:: If there is a consensus on a redirect target, I would support a redirect. I've added this to my above !vote.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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despite the argument about sources above, cannot see why to delete ratheer than per
1049:: I think the first three sources mentioned can be considered together to meet BASIC
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428:
If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page.
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228:(SPC with no significant decorations) and lacks SIGCOV in multiple RS to satisfy
52:. As always source analysis wins over hopefulness and non policy based arguments
1334:: let me know if you'd like me to count the words from the first source (book).
1472:, IMO, it makes sense to mention Robles and possibly create a redirect to the
810:
903:
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and discuss issue of accident versus combat, find sources for decorations.
354:
https://en.wikipedia.org/Aviation_accidents_and_incidents_in_Iraq_War
1595:
https://www.cga.ct.gov/2007/vadata/chr/2007VA-00213-R001100-CHR.htm
592:
you want to know the difference between both female soldiers? 1.
1606:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1390:
the article could be renamed 'the death of
Lizbeth Robles' per
959:
to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
1192:
Name listed in article about monument dedication ceremony
809:
if a little more reliable sourcing could be found. Best,
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is met, but on too many of your pages it clearly isn't.
415:
has not been followed, that the topic has potential per
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Memorial site, Not SIGCOV, unknown editorial oversight
1088:
I think people should look at this for possible SIGCOV
449:
significant. There isn't SIGCOV of her in multiple RS.
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which provides coverage prior to her untimely death, "
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Support the redirect, not much notability otherwise.
1128:
Brief coverage in DENVER POST. Not SIGCOV by itself
1120:
List of fallen soldiers; database style information
1104:
List of fallen soldiers; database style information
970:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
1204:from the index, but we're still clearly short of
919:And those look like more memorial pages as well.
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1618:). No further edits should be made to this page.
328:Note: This discussion has been included in the
270:list of Puerto Rico-related deletion discussions
268:Note: This discussion has been included in the
248:Note: This discussion has been included in the
1528:lack of military impact and reliable sources
1117:orces: U.S. & Coalition/Casualties - Spe…
250:list of Military-related deletion discussions
214:
8:
805:. I would support a redirect and mention in
102:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
710:- According to Jorge Mariscal, writing for
330:list of Women-related deletion discussions
327:
267:
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1189:hemical Regiment remembers fallen with O…
1181:erto Rico National Cemetery - Bayamón". …
1173:peration Iraqi Freedom". Valor Run. 2001…
1157:BC News Honors U.S. Casualties". ABC New…
1149:rkan, Ross (2005-10-18). "2,000 Troops D…
1141:MVEE CRASH KILLS SOLDIER WITH FLORIDA TI…
1133:ang, Hyoung (March 29, 2005). "FORT CARS…
1125:War's realities hit home again". The Den…
1101:mp up to:a b "The Fallen: 2005". The New…
1093:zbeth Robles Obituary - (2005) - Vega Ba…
1085:riscal, Jorge (January 24, 2006). "Bush'…
1077:lón Dávila, Javier. "APASIONADA DE LA MI…
1068:lko-Bauer, Barbara; Whiteford, Linda M.;…
1165:S. Casualties Announced By The Dept. of…
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724:, there is currently no consensus on if
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1478:Hispanic and Latino Americans#Military
7:
1556:Mariscal, Jorge (January 24, 2006).
1051:(see below). Here is a source table.
517:as demonstrated. My !vote stands.
1558:"Bush's War Viewed from the South"
807:Puerto Rican women in the military
678:Puerto Rican women in the military
24:
801:and this appears to be a case of
87:Introduction to deletion process
1474:Military history of Puerto Rico
597:in the crash that followed. 2.
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
894:a notable soldier, similar to
1:
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1184:Memorial listing, no SIGCOV
1176:Memorial listing, no SIGCOV
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1160:Memorial listing, no SIGCOV
1152:Memorial listing, no SIGCOV
77:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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411:" This demonstrates that
57:13:44, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
1136:Getty images, not SIGCOV
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1608:Please do not modify it.
1376:rather than improve per
32:Please do not modify it.
1208:as your table shows.
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797:Knowledge is
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1567:. Retrieved
1563:CounterPunch
1561:
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1498:
1442:— Preceding
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727:CounterPunch
725:
713:CounterPunch
711:
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689:
673:
617:Marine 69-71
598:
593:
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584:
547:Marine 69-71
543:
513:as there is
471:the project.
469:
468:now states "
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1569:21 February
1388:Alternative
1268:TimothyBlue
1063:Evaluation
419:and so our
188:free images
1544:References
1312:Switch to
570:Durindaljb
473:" Q.E.D.
466:WP:SOLDIER
426:applies, "
396:WP:SOLDIER
358:Durindaljb
226:WP:SOLDIER
1612:talk page
1318:Mztourist
1303:Mztourist
1033:Mztourist
1002:WP:SIGCOV
863:WP:SIGCOV
842:Oaktree b
770:WP:SIGCOV
694:Oaktree b
655:Mztourist
622:Mztourist
590:Mztourist
555:Mztourist
515:WP:SIGCOV
493:Mztourist
451:Mztourist
417:WP:NEXIST
413:WP:BEFORE
404:this book
376:Mztourist
313:Mztourist
274:Mztourist
254:Mztourist
234:Mztourist
37:talk page
1614:or in a
1486:TJMSmith
1456:contribs
1444:unsigned
1327:WP:BIO1E
990:darkness
987:Intothat
957:Relisted
924:darkness
921:Intothat
803:WP:BIO1E
782:TJMSmith
774:WP:BIO1E
758:darkness
755:Intothat
736:TJMSmith
690:Redirect
682:Reywas92
674:Redirect
334:TJMSmith
155:View log
96:glossary
39:or in a
1506:Timothy
1499:Comment
1476:and/or
1438:Comment
1420:Timothy
1413:Comment
1344:Timothy
1248:Timothy
1029:Comment
998:Comment
982:Comment
972:Spartaz
917:Comment
838:Comment
708:Comment
586:Comment
544:Comment
194:WP refs
182:scholar
128:protect
123:history
73:New to
54:Spartaz
1526:Delete
1374:Andrew
1314:Delete
1206:WP:GNG
1060:Source
859:WP:GNG
855:Delete
795:Delete
776:, and
766:Delete
751:Delete
722:WP:RSP
651:WP:GNG
519:Andrew
511:WP:GNG
475:Andrew
432:Andrew
424:WP:ATD
421:policy
230:WP:GNG
224:Fails
166:Google
132:delete
50:delete
1237:Reply
811:GPL93
730:is a
400:essay
209:JSTOR
170:books
149:views
141:watch
137:links
16:<
1571:2021
1534:talk
1510:talk
1490:talk
1452:talk
1424:talk
1400:talk
1379:wolf
1370:Keep
1348:talk
1320:and
1307:talk
1252:talk
1047:Keep
1037:talk
944:talk
936:Keep
908:talk
904:RZuo
898:and
892:Keep
857:per
846:talk
829:wolf
824:Keep
815:talk
786:talk
768:per
740:talk
720:Per
698:talk
659:talk
641:talk
626:talk
607:talk
574:talk
559:talk
523:talk
497:talk
479:talk
455:talk
436:talk
393:Keep
380:talk
362:talk
350:Keep
338:talk
317:talk
298:talk
290:Keep
278:talk
258:talk
238:talk
202:FENS
176:news
145:logs
119:talk
115:edit
1508:::
1504://
1422:::
1418://
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1342://
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1246://
902:.--
676:to
549:on
521:🐉(
477:🐉(
434:🐉(
409:...
216:TWL
153:– (
1560:.
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1454:•
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