640:, so that's a non-starter. It's not another argument, it's relevant to this point. Should we include these tables just because we can. In the case of smaller European clubs, I think there is a case for including them. In the case of Liverpool, I don't think there is a case for including in the parent article. It would become too long and unruly. The question then becomes, are these lists worthy of standing alone? As Koncorde mentions below, what then stops you from creating a list of domestic league and cup matches? The reviewer on the GA didn't push back when I said we didn't need the table. Nor did anyone advocate for the table's inclusion during the featured article process. The same was the case with the Arsenal article. That's a consensus on how the articles should be structured. This is why we have season articles. All the information is included in self-contained summaries.
914:
these lists encyclopedic? Just because they are currently on here, doesn't necessarily mean they are. The
Barcelona article you mention should be brought up to the standard of the Liverpool and Arsenal article. Doing that would mean the list of results would have to be either deleted or split due to its length. Personally, I don't think we need separate lists when we have season articles for the clubs and the competition. The European articles are a side point of the history of the teams. There probably needs to be a discussion at
975:– specifically, this is exactly the kind of material you would expect to see in a specialised football almanac. The nomination says "Knowledge is not a collection of stats", but that is untrue – the five pillars say Knowledge is not an "indiscriminate collection of information". This information is highly discriminate with a clear scope and focus, and Liverpool F.C. matches in international competition is clearly a notable topic. I'm happy for the material to be accommodated at
396:, and while I haven't had the need for Liverpool these tables are encyclopaedic and informational (looking through season by season is quite time consuming.) Deleting this article would lead to an odd case where an extremely notable team doesn't have the same information as teams who have not played in Europe as much because we already have too much information on them. (If this information exists elsewhere
788:
control. We have summaries by competition, club and country in the
European article, that's more than enough. The only other option would be to split the current list up into by year lists, along the lines of the national team results lists we have. But, it's arguable whether this has any encyclopedic merit.
913:
Nowhere did I say I want to delete the national football team results. I don't think you understood my point. I'm questioning whether these results merit their own article. Like
Koncorde states, if we create separate European results lists, what's stopping us from creating domestic results lists? Are
232:
Unnecessary page which is just a collection of matches
Liverpool played in European competition. We already have an article detailing Liverpool's record in Europe. We don't need to include every single match they've played in Europe because the page is an overview and not a collection of stats. That
787:
This is a giant rabbit hole if we go down this road. That's why we have the season articles. Liverpool could be playing in Europe for another 100 years, so you'd have a list which is even longer and unruly as you add every match they've ever played. The season articles are much easier to keep under
718:
is an FA article and people want to merge content without consideration for article size and future expansion? Liverpool could be playing in
European football for another 100 years, which could created a vast article. So no thank you on a merge. As for the article, each match should be cited in my
501:
isn't a valid argument to include all these matches in the article. It's stretching the limits of what's considered encyclopedic information to include a whole list of matches. The reason the other articles have those tables is because they haven't been through the featured article process, f they
804:
Per NH. A list doesn't require there to be a separate article to be dependent upon (they can just refer to the main Club article if so). However all the arguments in support of this list are in support of all lists of results compiled. As you said, it would be quicker and easier to read all their
657:
doesn't specifically fail them, but does mention that if length is a concern that the topic be moved under a different heading or split. We also have articles for lists of domestic league and cup matches: they're in the specific season articles for each club. A table representing an overview of
233:
article has been through the featured article process where it was decided such tables are superfluous. The reader can learn what happened in those matches from the equivalent season articles. Knowledge is not a collection of stats, so this page is unnecessary and should be deleted.
855:
and all the rest that follow also? It really is no different, articles can be split. We cover
European results, league, cup, you name it. It's all covered somewhere, at times in multiple places, this is you singling out one article, which is done on multiple other articles.
387:
These tables are extremely common to include in articles about teams playing in
European competition and a quick spot check shows they exist in every other English team I spot-checked, and a couple other European teams for which I'm familiar. On its own it does violate
201:
658:
European competitions is clearly different, however, given how we present the information in other articles, and the
Liverpool article may even be at a stage where the European statistics could qualify for a stand-alone article, including this table.
874:
And the
Barcelona article is a shit-show too. No consistent format, no consistent structure etc. WP:OTHERSTUFF isn't a defence, particularly if you raise an article that is probably even more guilty of crimes against formatting and readability.
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392:, but we can't really merge it upstream: fact the Liverpool article has featured status and due to the length of Liverpool being in Europe means this table may not be properly placed within that article, making this article is a valid
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redundant duplication of both season articles, and competition articles for starters. It even gives links to the pages of both the season and competition in each case in a more easily read / consumed format (though the
52:. Three-way split between keep, merge and delete, each with good arguments. I'd normally go for merge as a compromise, but here there are also valid arguments against a merger given the length of the target article.
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I also want to push back on the argument "it was decided that such tables were superfluous." This does not appear to be consensus, but the nom's personal opinion. The matches table was
559:
be satisfied is because there's so much of information here in this specific article), but rather an integral way of displaying encyclopaedic data related to
European football matches.
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list of every match they played in these competitions. Usually I would say merge to that article, but there isn't any content here that would benefit that (really good) FL.
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As one of the foremost clubs in the sport, with a significant history international competition, this level of detail is within the scope of Knowledge per
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either because the entire topic is unknown outside fan circles, or because too much detail is present that will bore, distract or confuse a non-fan
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shows a load of results, but has no-where near the same quality as the Liverpool in Europe. You might as well drive down a road the wrong way!
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territory. The main article has records by competition, country, and competition, we don't need more detail just for the sake of it.
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Technically each season page we create is collection of statistics. The nomination for deletion hasn't cited any direct policy.
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of work. These sorts of tables are the usual way by which we present information about matches played in Europe, whether it be
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979:, though due to the length of both this list and the article, I think the stand-alone list approach is preferable.
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The entirety of that Barcelona article is a dog's breakfast, even the results tables aren't properly formatted.
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The list isn't actually dependent on a separate article, though it makes sense as its own article as a proper
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conveys a suitable level of detail, and anyone seeking specifics can drill down into any of the links.
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from the original article in August 2010 by the AfD nom, but the first Good Article assessment was in
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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No, but we also don't have a completely separate article for those competitions, either.
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each match took place in which would be a useful bracket). The existing summary table in
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about this, as the issue is bigger than one list or article. 11:35, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
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That's another argument entirely, and if we accept it, we're going to have to do a
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603:(point #8), but NapHit unilaterally decided the table wasn't worth including
823:. We could easily include the information, hatted, in the main article.
749:? There is a reason we use Season articles as self contained summaries.
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370:- per nom. Clearly duplicating information that we already have.
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Tables like these are extremely common for many football clubs.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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List of Liverpool F.C. matches in international competitions
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List of Liverpool F.C. matches in international competitions
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opinion. I feel this is a valid list and feel it can pass
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O really, you're going that route, do you want to delete
555:– neither of these are true - the only reason the second
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this subject is covered in a much better way at the FL
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747:List of Liverpool F.C. matches in Domestic Leagues
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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311:Note: This discussion has been included in the
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977:Liverpool F.C. in international football
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400:, it may not be proper for an article.)
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258:Liverpool F.C. in international football
858:FC Barcelona in international football
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502:were, they'd be removed. This is real
723:easily if sorted out and cleaned up.
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482:, does not merit separate article.
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95:Introduction to deletion process
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85:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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993:Please do not modify it.
435:per SF's comment above.
32:Please do not modify it.
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347:Delete
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557:might
484:Giant
458:with
456:Merge
438:Nehme
427:with
425:Merge
372:Nigej
217:JSTOR
178:books
157:views
149:watch
145:links
16:<
969:Keep
956:2302
881:talk
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755:talk
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729:talk
712:Keep
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601:here
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385:Keep
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239:talk
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