856:. Red links indicate that an article is desirable. Whether or not practice has changed with respect to red links on DAB pages (it was my understanding that entries were to be kept to one per line, such that a red-linked item should only be added immediately prior to creating the article, with the line otherwise not linking the item but only the page to which the reader is referred for coverage), as Doncram says below, "A disambiguation page is to help readers navigate to Knowledge (XXG)-notable topics", whereas a list can include items that do not merit an article, but complete the set. If we remove this list and only keep the DAB page, we lose information—with references, yet—for lakes that fall below that threshhold. That does the reader a disservice and is pointless. An encyclopedia should not contain only information that merits entire articles. In addition, noting a point made below by Aymatth2, a list as opposed to a table not only renders better on a small screen but enables linking to items (including on the DAB page if desired) using links to subheadings. That facilitates reader searching.
1102:: All this list-article does is append together what one editor found in Google search for "McArthur Lake". It adds no value for "granny" who can search better in Google than you can, because she can add more terms and search more narrowly. It actually hurts, now Granny has to wade through this new list-article in the Google results, which will end up including dead links, too. A fresh Google search is better for her than this; it shows no editorial discretion helping a specific-item-searching-Granny nor providing anything encyclopedic to those interested in lakes more generally. An encyclopedia should add value by editorial discretion, not include crap like "Fish include largemouth bass, bluegill, redear sunfish, warmouth, flier, pickerel and bullhead catfish.", etc. Would you like for a robot to generate a zillion more wikipedia articles, on every possible search term in Google? Let me call this my
1798:
a park, it should in prinicple be able to getsources about their creation or designation, but these are the sort of sources that are difficult to find; though they sometimes turn up in the online portions of local newspapers--but the entire run of all local newspaers are yet online,and many local and State official records are still only in print. Still, the possibility means they are soureable; there is no requirement they be currently sourced. Factors leading towards deletion have been if htere is literally only a name on a map, if t's a small lake on private property, and especially if there is a hotel or resort on the lake and the article iswritten to highlight it in a promotional manner. It's not artificial to make articles where we conveniently can, and add more later--most of WP has grown in just that fashion.
1085:(which deserves deletion by my view, but maybe you think it should be expanded into a list-article). Hmm, shouldn't you expand your list-article to be "lakes with McCarthur or MacCarthur or McCarthy in their names". Or start a new compilation for the McCarthy ones? And one for MacDonalds Lake, and one for MacGregors Lake, and one for MacIntyre Lake, and one for MacRaes Lake. Go ahead waste your life, adding no value for anyone. Or maybe you give someone miniscule value, at cost of giving negative value to others who might search and find nothing worth arriving at. Uggh. We do get to exercise editorial judgment in Knowledge (XXG), and what makes sense here is to say NO. --
1559:, and move the dab page here. Seriously? People are arguing to keep a list of things based only on their name? The entire purpose of disambiguation is to point people to the proper places to find this information, and if they're not notable enough for an article they can either be included in a proper geographic location or not included at all. For those concerned about losing information - if the lake is notable, move this content to a stub article. If it isn't, consider whether the information is worthwhile being on Knowledge (XXG), and if it is, move it somewhere so that the dab page can send people there (the Victorian one, for example, could go to
1366:. Several editors above have agreed that there should be a disambiguation page, and fewer have agreed that the current list-article is a set index article, seemingly therefore supporting its continuation. But none of these have provided evidence on it meeting any standard for notability. We do not want 50,000 or more set index articles about lakes which tries to save steps for Granny's Google search; we have an existing geography-based list-system of lakes. --
1332:, a list of lakes called "McArthur Lake", including five that have articles and six that do not. It gives 1–3 lines of text about each lake, citing sources. It may help readers looking for information on a given McArthur Lake, even if there is no article for that lake. The AfD nominator agrees there should be a page with this name. Is there any guideline that says everything after the lead section in this set index article should be deleted, so it becomes a DAB?
936:
believe the most correct outcome would be to make the one-link-per-line to... whatever the most appropriate administrative subdivision of Nova Scotia would be, for example. IF there's a desire for a set index also, that's an editorial decision; I am not clear when it is appropriate to have both a set index list and a disambiguation page when the content between the two would be largely (but not entirely) duplicative.
1077:: C'mon people. Exert some editorial judgment. If someone wants to waste a good portion of their life compiling lists of lakes, I suggest that they choose to create or expand and split out compilations organized by geographic area or by watershed, rather than glomming together lakes with various letter-strings in their name. E.g.
1081:, erm, oh, someone did that already, which serves "granny" fine already. Searching "McCarthur Lake Nova Scotia" would yield the Lakes of Nova Scotia list-article, and "granny" could click on the coordinates and go to a Google map showing it. There ain't no granny needing your further "help". Hmm, Nova Scotia lakes include a
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appropriate treatment for content of this type, I'd rather see it on a "List of lakes in Nova Scotia" rather than a "List of lakes called McArthur". Having the same name doesn't really meet "things of only one type", the various lakes are different things that share the same name; almost every entry in
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information does not merit a standalone article, it should be preserved in an organized form that enables a reader to easily find it (including for example links in other articles to list items/article subsections) and does not involve spurious red links, which suggest a standalone article is merited.
1797:
anyone can challenge anything, dut so far only aabout a tenth of articles on such geographic features have been defeated at AfD. Factors preventing deletion have been whether there are facilities at the lake, and especially if the lake is aa major part of a public park. (If there are facilities of
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But rightly or wrongly these very short, maybe single-sourced articles, are likely to get AfD challenges. I do not want to create articles that just get deleted, but am not sure I would have the energy to defend them. I suppose they could be redirects to paragraphs in articles on local geography, but
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In a case like this where everything with the similar name is part of the same set, only the set index article is required, because every item that would appear on a dab page is already included and linked from the set index. Only if there were topics unrelated to lakes -- say "McArthur Lake (play)",
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argues, sources, and images, and does not preclude also having a DAB page to lead quickly to those that do have standalone articles. One of our functions is to be a gazeteer, and accordingly I think the same standard should obtain here as for populated places, including neighborhoods: if encyclopedic
437:
There is clearly a need for a list or disambiguation article to help readers navigate to the one they want. The advantage of the list format is that it supports information about several other lakes with similar names that do not warrant an article on their own. This is in line with the guidelines at
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format. Personally, it is my understanding of the MOS that there should be a disambiguation page here, following the disambiguation page style guidelines. That said, I would be amenable to including the lakes of this name without articles (such as the Nova Scotia lakes) in the disambiguation page; I
564:
Granny is talking about her childhood vacations in Nova Scotia, where she fished in Lake McArthur. You look it up on
Knowledge (XXG) and find there are three lakes with names like that, none with articles, but they give some information. You ask her, "Did it have a railway along the shore? Was there
1349:
Says you. Okay, call it "set index article", rather than a list-article. This AFD proposes that it should be deleted, because it is not a notable topic for a set index article or list-article. There has to be some standard. Why not create a complete list in mainspace listing
Aymatth2 and myself
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down to a bare bones disambiguation page, we lose encyclopedic information and do our readers a disservice. To quote the guideline, "one of the functions of many lists on
Knowledge (XXG) is providing an avenue for the retention of encyclopedic information that does not warrant separate articles, so
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Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes mountains, lakes, streams, islands, etc. The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. If a
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In my opinion, the navigational purpose of disambiguation pages are superior to the current set-up. The encyclopedic content is covered by the articles themselves, so there would be nothing that is "lost". The whole reason disambiguation pages are so "bare-bones" is so readers can find the article
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I previously pointed out that the section on "Common selection criteria" is about how many items to include in a standalone list, IF it is established that the list topic is acceptable. Here, the list topic "lakes with McArthur in their name" is not acceptable. It would be okay to have a proper,
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is a recognized type of article. The title is not a notable subject, but the list is useful. The above vote is "I don't like set index articles". Again, if there were any case for converting this article to a DAB, that should be done by simply deleting everything but the lead section, leaving the
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is most appropriate. It will take slightly longer to find the first five, but much less time to find the other six. But obviously the first five are more likely search targets, so this is not a strong argument. It would be easy enough to rename this one as a "list of" index, then make a short DAB
1752:
If all the eleven lakes have articles this page can be trimmed down to a disambiguation page. I will do that after splitting out articles for the six lakes that have no pages if the decision is to split. I am a bit hesitant because I think I scraped the bottom of the barrel for online sources on
958:
Lakes without articles are in fact allowed on a disambiguation page, as long as there is a redlink to them from some other article. If a lake is never expected to get an article and there is no redlink to it, then we don't want to mention it at all. A disambiguation page is to help readers
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actually agree on how to handle this, I'll stay out and this can probably be speedily closed with whatever consensus they both support. If not, my take is that Set Index articles generally don't contain paragraph-length descriptions of topics that aren't otherwise notable. If that is the
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Yes. The DAB page is completely redundant to the lead section of the set index list, but more long-winded, and was just created to make a point. Probably simpler to delete it as part of closing this discussion. There is no reason to have two pages with the same list of five articles.
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has been created, the only reason to delete this article would be to obliterate from WP all the information contained in the article about the lakes that don't have their own articles. If the idea is only to allow the dab page to use the base title "McArthur Lake" because there is no
673:, i.e. be supported by a bluelink to an article that shows the redlink in context, i.e. is suggestive that the topic deserves an article. Given Yngvadottir's misunderstanding, their "!vote" should be downweighted IMO, though Yngvadottir is welcome to revise or clarify their view.
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What would be useful is a disambiguation page; there is nothing further useful about the improper list. If you want to change how disambiguation pages are done in
Knowledge (XXG) to allow photos and sources and random thoughts, then go ahead and open a discussion at
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was taken. One way to have handled this would have been through an acknowledgement in the edit summary. A much simpler way to convert to a DAB (which I do not think should be done) would be to replace the last line in the lead section with
1408:, after which this set index article could be converted to a dab page. Another possibility is to create stubs for the lakes that don't yet have articles and then convert this to a dab page. Personally, I think things are fine as they are.
261:
Article does not comply with
Knowledge (XXG) standards for a standalone list. It is not an encyclopedic topic; putting in sourced statements about random factoids does not cover that up. I myself wrote an essay against use of
646:. The MOS is not meant to be a straitjacket, and DAB pages are not supposed to have redlinked entries. Also there are variants on the name: McArthur, McArthurs, etc. A list enables inclusion of identifying information, as
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with a link to the index. I prefer the heading-style list given here to a table-style list mainly because wide tables render poorly on phones, the main viewing device these days. This is just personal preference.
617:. The DAB quickly takes the user to the article they want – if it exists. The Set index article gives information about all the entries in the set, whether or not they have articles. So we could move this one to
1195:
Apparently that was confusing, as if the creation of a separate DAB page would make me okay with this list-article. No, I nominated this list-article for deletion and stand by my opinion it should be deleted.--
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and will take a shot at the remaining seven lakes that do not yet have articles. When that is done, tomorrow I hope, I will trim this article down into a disambiguation page. I fully support the objective that
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per
Aymatth2. This is a valid set index article, a/k/a a multi-stub, containing useful information that would not be included on a dab page. Everything seems to be sourced. (Came here per request at
1001:. The idea is not to force someone looking for a member without an article to go first to the DAB page, then click through to the set index, which they may not spot at the foot of the DAB page.
1732:, and replace by a disam page for the lakes, since each of them is independently notable. A few don't have individual articles yet, and they are needed. The content here can be used as a start
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as a disambiguation page. This AFD continues on whether the "set index article" should be kept or deleted to make way for the disambiguation page to be moved to simply "McArthur Lake"
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It is a content dispute, and technically that should be resolved by gaining consensus on the article's talk page, not through an AfD. But I think we would all like to put it to bed.
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and possibly reformat to more of a disambiguation page, but there's nothing wrong with including lakes with this name that aren't notable enough for their own article in the list.
1185:
and then everyone would agree this is technically correct, to have an AFD about the list-article, with intent for it to be deleted and have the disambiguation page moved there. --
1563:) The fact that anyone is seriously arguing that "List of lakes named McArthur" is a remotely serious outcome here makes my head spin. What next, "List of people named John"?
1106:: we don't want the list-article if it provides nothing more than what Google can generate on the fly, and if it is worse than fresh Google results for many/most searchers. --
442:. But the format and content can be discussed on the article talk page. The question here is whether it should be deleted. It is useful and well-sourced, so should be kept.
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1400:; this article could then remain with a new name like "List of lakes named McArthur". If the preference is to keep the information but have it in different articles like
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Knowledge (XXG) article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the feature can instead be included in a more general article on local geography.
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both seem to be acceptable articles (in addition to various Lake MacArthur type names), a DAB is necessary. I don't see the need for anything further here.
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Conceptually I think it is better understood as disagreement about whether a list-article should exist, so AFD is better. In two seconds I could create
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A complete disambiguation page would include the following (with the
Australia item being a redlink compliant with disambiguation page requirements) --
1707:
I have done that. So the front of the article still looks like a disambiguation page, then the detail follows, but it is not broken up with headings.
1026:"McArthur Lake (song)" and "McArthur Lake (painting)" -- would we need a separate dab page with the article about the lakes being one of the items.
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1219:. I suggest we take the closer's decision here as a decision to not reopen the same stale argument on the article's talk page. But let's give
266:, but now I want to apply wp:TNT to completely get rid of this. Perhaps a disambiguation page can be allowed later. Note: The previous AFD,
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270:, was closed, unhelpfully in my opinion, cutting short discussion/decision about what to do. I installed the disambiguation page version;
52:. Exactly what form the page should have is a subject for the talk page, but it is more than clear that there is no consensus for deletion.
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McArthur Lakes, so the information given here on the non-article lakes is just about all that is available. In the parallel discussion at
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an old sawmill? Does the name
Framboise ring a bell? She answers and you have found the lake, with links to the map, sources and pictures.
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edit history intact, The clumsy "delete-then-move" the strangely structured and unattributed DAB serves only to destroy edit history.
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and then replace it by the plagiarized version, which would wipe out all history of the editors who did the work to assemble this list.
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In this case, there are five lakes with articles and six that are unlikely to ever get articles. My feeling is that only a set index
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I'm not sure what you mean by "list-article". I assume you mean anything beyond your DAB page. To try to be entirely clear: as
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that seem a bit artificial when the local geography unit contains many lakes but its article does not yet discuss any of them.
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for the way it should have been done. The strange decision to have one heading per list entry, the same text and sequence as
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1677:. It does not look nearly as bad on a mobile as I expected. That change could be discussed on the article talk page.
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and other editors here. It would be a complete list of a set. That does not make it
Knowledge (XXG)-notable.
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290:, could you please comment/vote on whether this page should be a stripped down disambiguation page, as in
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927:. Despite my initial misgivings (and apparent illiteracy at failing to notice the bluelinked articles...
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they want with as little lost effort as possible, which the status quo is awful at accomplishing. --
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I have done a first cut and will tidy up tomorrow. I see no reason to keep this discussion open.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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that are lists of people who have no connection other than their first name, including
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list structure. No policy-based reason has been given to convert it from that to a
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If most of the set entries do not have articles, there should just be a set index
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I like it. I might put the bluelinks at the top as well as in the list, though.
931:) at the prior AFD, there's really no question that this should be retained in
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Do you have a policy-based reason for your vote to convert the article from a
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Sorry, Aymathh2 and I do not agree. The list-article should be deleted. --
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That is emphatically not plagiarism. It concerns me that you think it is.
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stripped-down disambiguation page as is done for other common lake names (
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There is consensus that the article fully conforms with the standard
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a chance to give us a reason other than "I don't like set indexes".
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If most of the set members have articles there should be a DAB page
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per
Doncram. This is effectively a content dispute at this point.
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I do not see guidelines on this, but think the common practice is
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has restored the list-article version. Previous AFD participants
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To see how it would look, I put the article into table format at
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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by taking a copy and pruning out much content. The proposal by
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Trying now to cut through minor confusion here, I have created
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to the base title. Updating my !vote per developments below. --
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and delete the remainder. That leaves all the history intact.
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Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/McArthur Lake, Ontario
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is extremely tolerant of articles on lakes that would fail
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Knowledge (XXG):Stand-alone lists#Common selection criteria
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and disambiguation pages can coexist. For example the DAB
1673:. This layout is more like the sample articles cited at
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List of ships of the United States Navy named Enterprise
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799:(McArthur Lake), in the Outaouais region, near Denholm
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Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/MacArthurs Lake
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list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions
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Articles for deletion/McArthur Lake (2nd nomination)
1179:Thanks for agreeing this can be covered as an AFD.
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in Yoho National Park west of Lake Louise (Alberta)
556:. Perhaps that would be clearer if it was moved to
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list of North Carolina-related deletion discussions
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294:or a list-article (with pictures, sources) as in
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1880:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1425:Note: This discussion has been included in the
382:Note: This discussion has been included in the
365:Note: This discussion has been included in the
348:Note: This discussion has been included in the
331:Note: This discussion has been included in the
314:Note: This discussion has been included in the
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883:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Disambiguation
1509:Knowledge (XXG):Copying within Knowledge (XXG)
959:navigate to Knowledge (XXG)-notable topics. --
403:. There are five articles with similar titles:
350:list of Australia-related deletion discussions
316:list of Geography-related deletion discussions
1827:has noted of making Knowledge (XXG) a useful
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131:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
84:Articles for deletion/McArthur Lake, Ontario
333:list of Canada-related deletion discussions
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367:list of Idaho-related deletion discussions
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1250:is also disambiguated by province/state.
1404:, that can be handled with a series of
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821:McArthur Lake Wildlife Management Area
1292:McArthur Lake (Northwest Territories)
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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784:McArthur Lake, Northwest Territories
416:McArthur Lake, Northwest Territories
79:Articles for deletion/McArthur Lake
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1818:, which I respect. I have started
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1583:Knowledge (XXG):Set index articles
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839:That's all that's needed here. --
1396:, that is better handled with a
1048:, but it can serve as a type of
116:Introduction to deletion process
1052:if it covers all the meanings.
605:There is a place for both, and
1461:McArthur Lake (disambiguation)
1389:McArthur Lake (disambiguation)
1362:McArthur Lake (disambiguation)
1183:McArthur Lake (disambiguation)
714:, or variations, may refer to:
528:McArthur Lake (disambiguation)
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1757:it has been pointed out that
1671:Talk:McArthur Lake/Alternate2
1521:Talk:McArthur Lake/Alternate1
1248:Category:Set indices on lakes
1104:Google test for list-articles
1040:O.k. – that makes sense. The
576:common sense is required..."
1402:List of lakes in Nova Scotia
920:) 11:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
619:List of lakes named McArthur
558:List of lakes named McArthur
1820:MacArthur's Lake (Victoria)
1814:Thank you for that opinion
1193:) 23:14, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
994:to handle the complete set.
729:MacArthur's Lake (Victoria)
548:, similar to the examples:
504:, but reformat so it meets
467:, and you will not succeed.
106:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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1606:many thousands of articles
1587:List of peaks named Signal
1463:has been plagiarized from
615:List of peaks named Signal
550:List of peaks named Signal
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613:has a "See also" link to
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1870:Please do not modify it.
276:User:Squeamish Ossifrage
32:Please do not modify it.
1044:is primarily a type of
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771:McArthur Lake, Ontario
421:McArthur Lake, Ontario
73:AfDs for this article:
1765:. The guideline says:
1288:McArthur Lake (Idaho)
779:Northwest Territories
104:Articles for deletion
1079:Lakes of Nova Scotia
816:McArthur Lake, Idaho
786:on the Taltson River
431:McArthur Lake, Idaho
1217:disambiguation page
1163:disambiguation page
1121:Convert to DAB page
938:Squeamish Ossifrage
284:User:LaundryPizza03
773:, south of Timmins
607:set index articles
1831:. Thanks again,
1441:
1406:splits and merges
1330:set index article
1221:user:Power~enwiki
990:plus a set index
921:
908:comment added by
823:which includes it
571:If we strip this
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1459:I note that
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1825:Yngvadottir
1503:Sure it is
1387:. Now that
858:Yngvadottir
653:Yngvadottir
479:, etc.). --
225:free images
1783:Comments?
1759:WP:GEOLAND
1604:There are
1561:Raak Plain
1505:plagiarism
544:This is a
473:Round Lake
54:Randykitty
1874:talk page
1829:gazetteer
1614:Johnathan
1213:set index
1159:set index
1042:set index
929:mea culpa
724:Australia
671:MOS:DABRL
573:set index
477:Long Lake
465:wp:MOSDAB
37:talk page
1876:or in a
1847:Aymatth2
1833:Aymatth2
1785:Aymatth2
1709:Aymatth2
1679:Aymatth2
1630:Station1
1592:Aymatth2
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1028:Station1
1013:Aymatth2
918:contribs
906:unsigned
887:Station1
648:Aymatth2
623:Aymatth2
578:Aymatth2
444:Aymatth2
184:View log
125:glossary
39:or in a
1565:Frickeg
1491:Frickeg
1385:Comment
1368:Doncram
1274:Doncram
1239:Doncram
1197:Doncram
1187:Doncram
1108:Doncram
1087:Doncram
1075:Comment
1008:setname
999:setname
988:setname
961:Doncram
854:Comment
841:Doncram
766:Ontario
684:Doncram
506:MOS:DAB
481:Doncram
300:Doncram
231:WP refs
219:scholar
157:protect
152:history
102:New to
1763:WP:GNG
1624:, and
1622:Johnie
1610:Johnny
1557:Delete
792:Quebec
746:Canada
264:wp:TNT
203:Google
161:delete
1806:talk
1740:talk
1730:Split
1626:Johny
1618:Johne
1161:to a
885:.) -
246:JSTOR
207:books
191:Stats
178:views
170:watch
166:links
16:<
1851:talk
1837:talk
1789:talk
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1683:talk
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1647:Keep
1634:talk
1628:. -
1596:talk
1569:talk
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1451:talk
1435:avix
1429:. --
1414:talk
1372:talk
1338:talk
1290:and
1278:talk
1241:and
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933:some
925:Keep
914:talk
900:Keep
891:talk
879:Keep
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845:talk
688:talk
657:talk
644:Keep
627:talk
597:avix
582:talk
552:and
536:avix
525:Move
514:avix
501:Keep
485:talk
448:talk
401:Keep
304:talk
239:FENS
213:news
174:logs
148:talk
144:edit
58:talk
50:keep
1816:DGG
1801:DGG
1779:DGG
1735:DGG
1237:If
1165:?
1050:DAB
253:TWL
182:– (
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