904:...a larger naturalization bill, in 1795 ... exclude "any foreign emigrant from citizenship who had borne a title of nobility in Europe till he had formally renounced it." This portion of the bill, which remains codified as law today, was proposed at least partially out of fear that former French nobility fleeing the French Revolution would come to the United States and reestablish themselves as a privileged class unless they "renounced all hereditary titles" that they may possess." However, the naturalization bill ... did not prevent a former noble from renouncing his title and then simply reclaiming it immediately after becoming a citizen. ... the goal of the ToNA was initially only to correct the naturalization law... When combined, the first draft of the ToNA and the naturalization statute would serve to force an immigrating nobleman to renounce his title if he sought citizenship and then never reclaim that title (or claim any others) if he hoped to become a public official in the United States. ...First, it now included within its purview ... those who held titles through descent (essentially barring foreign nobles from citizenship) ...
776:
Internet, as a point of interest for certain milieus of the
American anti-government right wing, which assert that the ratification took place but was covered up by a conspiracy. This study suggests that these theories, although erroneous, merit study, as they allow us to understand the dynamics of "pseudo-history" manifest in certain political cultures. In doing so, it also clarifies the facts and brings to light the importance, today largely forgotten, of the importance of the question of noble titles in the US during the 18th and 19th centuries
487:
intérêt dans certains milieux de la droite antigouvernementale américaine, qui soutient que sa ratification eut lieu, mais fut étouffée par un complot. Cette étude postule que ces théories, quoiqu’erronées, méritent analyse, car elles permettent de comprendre la dynamique de la «pseudo-histoire» propre à certaines sous cultures politiques. Ce faisant, elle rectifie également les faits et met en lumière l’importance, aujourd’hui largement oubliée, de l’enjeu des titres de noblesse dans les États-Unis des XVIIIe et XIXe siècles.
302:(a framing which includes both the presence and legal issues faced by nobility in the US, as well as the existence of informal nobility within US society) to license a creation of that article, and it would almost certainly include a section on immigration. That having been said, while I don't have a problem with suggesting a move-and-rewrite, it's not clear how much of the current content it would make sense to preserve, given the SYNTH nature of the current text.
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Scholarly interest isn't strictly required, but specific coverage of the topic as a whole is, and scholarly publications are the best place to find it. If there were a bunch of NYT or similar-tier news sources covering the immigration of nobility as a class, rather than as individuals, that would be
323:
I suggest reading the article before AFDing it. The text already explains why an ambassador (Prince Bandar) is counted as an immigrant in addition to being an ambassador: He bought large amounts of real estate not related to his ambassadorial duties, and became so connected with the
Cowboys that he
548:
I think that example is again, too specific for what we're looking for. The fact that an RS has documented that a noble immigrated to the US is not enough to license the creation of an article on the abstract concept of noble immigration to the US, and the paper is specifically citing that example
486:
Cette Ă©tude porte sur le Titles of
Nobility Act, amendement constitutionnel adopté par le Congrès des États-Unis en 1810, mais ratifié par un nombre insuffisant d’États pour devenir partie de la constitution américaine. Peu connu, cet amendement suscite pourtant, depuis l’émergence d’Internet, un
775:
This study concerns the Titles of
Nobility Act , a constitutional amendment adopted by the US Congress in 1810, but ratified by an insufficient number of states to become part of the American Constitution. Little known, this amendment has nevertheless resurfaced, following the emergence of the
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MĂŞme si ces efforts demeurent infructueux ... le
Naturalization Act of 1795 ... impose désormais à tout immigrant souhaitant obtenir la naturalisation ... de renoncer à tout titre de noblesse. C'est cette tension entre citoyenneté américaine et titres aristocratiques que tente de résoudre
873:
MĂŞme si ces efforts demeurent infructueux ... le
Naturalization Act of 1795 ... impose désormais à tout immigrant souhaitant obtenir la naturalisation ... de renoncer à tout titre de noblesse. C'est cette tension entre citoyenneté américaine et titres aristocratiques que tente de résoudre
498:; I don't see any analysis of a general phenomena of noble immigration to the US, other than brief mentions that the TONA would require nobles renounce their titles as part of a hypothetical path to citizenship. I think that this is an example of a source that would be a good resource for
635:
The addition of yet another source that does not discuss the actual phenomenon of noble immigration, and instead solely discusses the circumstances surrounding the passage of the TONA, suggests that either you still fundamentally don't understand our objections or have decided to
489:
I've scanned through the article as a whole and don't see anything that deviates from that scope; are there specific passages with page numbers you'd like to point to? The references I see to xenophobia all appear to refer to the political climate surrounding the proposal of the
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for its immediate relevance to the proposal of the TONA, the main focus of the paper. For a topic like this to be notable and OR-free, you would need to draw on sources that cover the phenomenon as a whole. Examples of such sources for other, analogous topics would be
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I don't see how you can think that. It discusses the phenomenon of the immigration of titled individuals. It discusses the opposition to this phenomenon. It calls this opposition "xenophobia". Should I translate
Villeneuve into English? (Copied from Talk:.)
461:. This shows it's a current (2019) matter of peer-reviewed study, and that this is noted outside the country (Quebec). It's a concept, it's current, it's in a society journal, it's even controversial and the controversy is controversial in other countries.
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242:. Just like other people, nobility migrates as well, to many countries, including the US (though not especially so). A random selection of some examples (including an ambassador, hardly a relevant inclusion) doesn't an article make.
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about it, cobbling together an article about a general phenomenon from coverage of individual (purported) examples of it, where the individual cited pieces of coverage do not discuss any sort of broader trend, is textbook OR.
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That article is more about the TONA and the context of rediscovery with the internet and xenophobia bla bla. That could be an interesting article if you had a few more papers about it. You could merge this stub into that.
680:? I have been given the impression by the relevant WP: pages that I must establish existence of the concept. I think the sources I provided have established that more strongly, and the quotes provided by my latest edit
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article more broadly covers "hereditary noble immigrants" and the entire "subject of their immigration". The legal history generates continued interest and controversy into the present day and is completely outside of
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who is more influential in
American foreign policy than almost any American, and who has bought a seat next to the owner of his favorite American team, but is not expected by anyone to ever change his citizenship.
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Almost appears OR; I'm sure over the course of the last 245 years at least a few "nobles" have come to live in the USA, but it's not been discussed at any length that I could find. There was the
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561:. You can find some sources that discuss nobility in the US in this way, but I have been unable to find any that discuss noble immigrants or the emigration of nobility in this fashion.
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there certainly is scholarly interest and the idea that it doesn't exist may come from something as simple as the wrong search terms. I said I will add such and I will today.
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I am not IDHT. I was trying to move toward a solution without getting bogged down in what I think is a secondary question: I think this is your preference
Rosguill. I would
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which shows that he remained in the country to serve as unofficial ambassador even after being removed from his post. 3 minutes after this AFD nomination I was done typing
484:, je peux lire le francais tres bien. I don't see how the following is about anything other than the 1810 amendment and its recent resuscitation in right-wing discourse:
705:
All are peer-reviewed, 2 articles, 1 book. These all overview the general experience of immigrants and the immigration process, and are not about any specific examples.
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yet another source that does not discuss the actual phenomenon of noble immigration, and instead solely discusses the circumstances surrounding the passage of the TONA
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the paper is going to only be about the amendment and not about the fact that the thing it was against does actually exist. That would, however, be a very short paper.
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Villeneuve, Hubert (2019). "L'amendement fantôme : révocation de citoyenneté, pseudo-histoire et conspiration autour du Titles of
Nobility Amendment de 1810" .
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Villeneuve, Hubert (2019). "L'amendement fantôme : révocation de citoyenneté, pseudo-histoire et conspiration autour du Titles of Nobility Amendment de 1810" .
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294:(with caveat): I came to a similar conclusion as Fram when reviewing the article, and started a discussion on the talk page of the article. Based on my
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however I don't believe that is necessary and I thought my reply made that sufficiently clear. Is this your demand alone or am I missing something in
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Americans, not mentioning those who are only permanent residents notable for their permanent residence in the country. That especially doesn't cover
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article appropriately includes individuals such as DvF, whose immigration experience is interesting and notable but who is not a "royal immigrant".
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exists as a concept, so I'm trying to use a RS (now 2) to establish existence. Hopefully someone else will also use these source in that article.
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fear that former French nobility fleeing the French Revolution would come to the United States and reestablish themselves as a privileged class
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is an "immigrant with a noble title but no royal title". I haven't checked to see if there are any others who aren't but there's one.
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557:(for Tamil, or specifically Tamil Brahmin, immigration), papers/books which directly identify the population they are analyzing
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In 1803, Jerome Bonaparte, younger brother of Napoleon, temporarily moving to New York ... founded his family in Baltimore ...
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I really don't know how anyone could get that idea after reading the article. Neither "American" nor "royalty" fits with
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which is precisely about this topic. If there are sources here that would enhance that page they could be added there.
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fine, but neither appear to exist based on my searching. I'm awaiting the scholarly sources you say you have found.
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Almost a day later and I hope the quotes made my point. Since then I have also added 3 more sources with quotes.
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1087:(3 Dossier : La république apprivoisée : racisme et institutions dans l'histoire politique des États-Unis).
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Hart, Gideon (2011). "The "Original" Thirteenth Amendment: The Misunderstood Titles of Nobility Amendment".
837:(3 Dossier : La république apprivoisée : racisme et institutions dans l'histoire politique des États-Unis).
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p99: En 1803, Jérôme Bonaparte, frère cadet de Napoléon temporairement installé à New York ... Baltimore ...
719:(Anyway Mexican immigration and Tamil Brahmin immigration are hilarious examples. Very well done Rosguill.)
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Mothering for Class and Ethnicity: The Case of Indian Professional Immigrants in the United States
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If I can't use any RS to establish existence then yes I haven't understood SYNTH but certainly
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is incorrect and notable examples, already with their own articles, backed up by RS, cannot be
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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to have such sources but right now I am editing to respond to the critics to avoid deletion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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https://www.deseret.com/2002/7/21/19667397/von-furstenberg-sworn-in-as-a-bona-fide-citizen
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press coverage. I hope no one will seriously try to contest that. As such
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on Google Scholar, I think that there's enough coverage in the lens of
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More about yes. But I'm facing the charge that I haven't established
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Immigration of Hereditary Upper Class Persons Into The United States
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Rosguill: That article is purely about the 1810 proposed amendment
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yesterday to Rosguill scholarly interest really isn't required.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Talk:American royalty#Diane von FĂĽrstenberg and possibly others
1095:(Association québécoise d'histoire politique, AQdHP) & (
845:(Association québécoise d'histoire politique, AQdHP) & (
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by Stephen Leacock that came to mind but it's fiction.
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foreign emigrant ... who had borne a title of nobility
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It does not. I provided quotes to make this easier.
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including an ambassador, hardly a relevant inclusion
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43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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258:Note: This discussion has been included in the
520:Cette Ă©tude porte sur le Titles of Nobility Act
371:is required and I created the article with RS.
1013:I've started a thread about that problem here
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109:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
963:article appropriately focuses on those who
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365:Talk:Noble immigration to the United States
763:The following discussion has been closed.
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918:This replicates the information on
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951:Although some of the subjects of
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494:, and the related passage of the
663:is about the TONA circumstances?
342:On the more general subject the
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262:lists for the following topics:
94:Introduction to deletion process
1124:définitivement le TONA en 1810.
874:définitivement le TONA en 1810.
346:generates constant, tremendous
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932:04:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
831:Bulletin d'histoire politique
551:Mexican Immigration to the US
500:Nobility in the United States
64:17:38, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
808:01:03, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
757:21:24, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
691:should satisfy your demand.
652:00:18, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
616:00:43, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
573:22:05, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
514:21:06, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
492:Titles of Nobility Amendment
445:19:35, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
424:19:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
412:The Hohenzollerns in America
399:16:36, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
314:16:12, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
284:16:00, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
252:16:00, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
553:(for Mexican immigration),
84:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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973:Bandar bin Sultan Al Saud
331:Bandar bin Sultan Al Saud
1138:Please do not modify it.
1025:) 12 November 2022 (UTC)
1006:) 12 November 2022 (UTC)
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713:) 10 November 2022 (UTC)
699:) 9 November 2022 (UTC)
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32:Please do not modify it.
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600:) 8 November 2022 (UTC)
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983:Diane von FĂĽrstenberg
957:Diane von FĂĽrstenberg
369:WP:V#Reliable sources
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1060:"The Missing Prince"
892:Marquette Law Review
268:Royalty and nobility
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300:Nobility in the US
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1089:Consortium Érudit
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