830:.... (I realise that these are probably not SIGCOV, as the focus of the articles is on the incidents which occurred or might have occurred, or perhaps on (mis)communication within air traffic control, the effect of power cuts on air traffic control.) From my perspective, it seems that an article about 'New York air traffic control' would be useful, as in, it's something that people outside aviation would be likely to want to find out more about in an encyclopaedia, with information such as that there is more than one NR air traffic control centre; the amount of traffic they control; notable incidents in which they have been involved, etc. The intro and Section 1 of the current article could form part of such an article. I must admit that I have not searched for the terms in the rest of this article, but I highly doubt that they would be notable outside aviation. I would not vote to keep the article as it is - it should either be deleted or thoroughly revised and renamed.
817:
I'm in
Australia. "New York air traffic control" is what I think of in the context of incidents like Flight 1549, 9/11, etc - and indeed, I find results searching for that phrase, suggesting that it's a notable topic. It turns out, though, that there is more than one air traffic control centre in New
390:
Most of the material in this article is just plain aviation cruft. The details of sectors, sector names, frequencies, etc. Some of that you can compile from the standard aviation charts (frequencies, sector boundaries). Some of it (sector names), I don't have any clue where to find. Presumably
56:, which directs that contested unsourced material must be removed, is core policy and can not be overridden by local consensus. This article has been unsourced since creation in 2006 and remains so after 12 years, and 3 weeks of AfD. In this case, core policy dictates that AfD
405:
and what's not. There's a highly organized universe of aviation gamers out there, who have built a lot of websites with this kind of data. One of them, I had to read very carefully to figure out that I was looking at one of the gaming sites, and not an official FAA site. --
676:
The McCartin book certainly mentions NY Center, but only in passing, as examples of ATC procedures which happened in any radar room of the era, or of events that just happened to have occurred in New York. It would be an excellent reference for an article about
797:
this is unreferenced aviation cruft, completely unreferenced, and likely containing a lot of original research. I'm not convinced by the sources shown above, which appears to confuse air traffic control with this specific traffic control center.
217:
280:
343:
659:
I also note that searches using the Centre's abbreviation "New York Center" turn up a lot more results, although it is necessary to add "aviation" or "aircraft" or somesuch to filter out the irrelevant ones.
822:
461:
143:
138:
211:
147:
130:
421:
401:
I did a bunch of searching to see what I could find. If you want to repeat that experiment, be aware that you'll find lots of stuff. But, be careful about discerning what's a
170:
398:
For background, I'm a pilot (although I haven't flown in years). When I was flying, I was in the New York Area. So I have some basic understanding of how all this works.
274:
337:
700:
lines to help people in their searching. It will still help to tweak those searches with additional terms, but I'll leave that up to others to explore as they may. --
384:. There's no doubt that Air Traffic Control, in general, is notable. There's no doubt that the ARTCC system, in general, is notable. But an individual center? No.
177:
481:
441:
134:
696:
You are certainly correct that "New York Center" is what everybody in their right mind calls it, and thus makes a better search term. I've added additional
117:
102:
232:
199:
126:
78:
562:
currently has a really lazy example of what it might look like. No real effort put in, it'd obviously have to be done with more care than this =P --
377:
Totally unreferenced since it was created in 2006. Tagged for no references in 2007. Tagged again for no sources in 2015. Still has no sources.
626:
839:
809:
787:
760:
751:
in line with
SpinningSpark's comments above. I think this is a borderline case, but we should err in favor of inclusion rather than exclusion.
741:
707:
671:
571:
554:
534:
513:
493:
473:
453:
433:
413:
72:
685:
for NY Center. The same comments go for the other sources you cited. They're fine to establish specific facts, but don't do anything for
193:
381:
525:. Just whittle it down to information that might interest the general public, or which doesn't belong on a chart or in a phone book. --
189:
828:
825:
239:
97:
90:
17:
295:
358:
262:
325:
205:
111:
107:
769:
718:
856:
256:
40:
319:
804:
666:
252:
315:
835:
737:
521:
it's notable enough, and the article contains information that isn't in, and wouldn't be appropriate for,
852:
697:
693:, or generic to ATC overall, and not specifically about NY Center, even if it's mentioned as an example.
387:
All of the US ARTCCs have similar articles. All with similar problems. But let's start with this one.
36:
302:
365:
783:
559:
489:
469:
449:
429:
645:
There are many scholarly sources that have coverage, I don't have time to list them all, here's one,
819:
509:
351:
288:
225:
60:
cleanup. The article can be userfied for improvement, and recreated once it is adequately sourced.
585:. As always at AfD, criticism of the current state of the article is responded to with AfD is not
799:
704:
661:
594:
Collision Course: Ronald Reagan, the Air
Traffic Controllers, and the Strike that Changed America
551:
410:
610:
635:
604:
600:
831:
756:
733:
690:
596:
586:
567:
530:
392:
86:
29:
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
851:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
268:
35:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
331:
779:
485:
465:
445:
425:
651:
505:
63:
701:
686:
548:
407:
752:
618:
563:
544:
526:
402:
395:. But, in any case, none of this is sourced and even if it was, it's pure trivia.
164:
682:
53:
615:, admittedly, a personal reminiscence, but still reliable with usable facts.
827:
probably refers to the one this article is about, this one definitely does
637:
Touching
History: The Untold Story of the Drama That Unfolded in the Skies
623:, primary, but usable once notability is established with other sources.
620:
Adequacies of the Air
Traffic Control Systems in the New York City Area
374:
I'm sure this nomination is going to be controversial, but here goes.
543:
Can you be more specific about which information that would be? And
818:
York, and often news stories don't say which one was involved, eg
678:
522:
640:, has a lengthy description of the part the Center played in 9/11
847:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
772:
to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
721:
to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
462:
list of United States of
America-related deletion discussions
589:. I can readily find sources with non-trivial coverage;
654:
has a lot of details on software outages at the Center.
160:
156:
152:
350:
287:
224:
778:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
732:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
422:
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
859:). No further edits should be made to this page.
480:Note: This discussion has been included in the
460:Note: This discussion has been included in the
440:Note: This discussion has been included in the
420:Note: This discussion has been included in the
631:reporting on automation of the Center in 1958.
729:Needs assesment of the sources posted in AfD.
482:list of New York-related deletion discussions
442:list of Aviation-related deletion discussions
364:
301:
238:
8:
118:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
479:
459:
439:
419:
127:New York Air Route Traffic Control Center
79:New York Air Route Traffic Control Center
7:
24:
652:"Software safety and reliability"
103:Introduction to deletion process
391:some internal FAA document, so
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
1:
840:17:39, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
824:does say which one; this one
810:22:37, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
788:16:02, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
708:14:43, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
672:14:24, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
572:00:27, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
555:14:22, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
535:08:12, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
514:08:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
494:02:09, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
474:02:09, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
454:02:09, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
434:02:09, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
414:01:58, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
73:20:57, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
761:16:31, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
742:10:39, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
504:not independently notable --
93:(AfD)? Read these primers!
52:. I remind colleagues that
876:
815:Comment, Delete or Rewrite
849:Please do not modify it.
689:. Everything is either
612:Tree House to Palm Trees
32:Please do not modify it.
681:, but not to establish
698:template:find sources
91:Articles for deletion
560:User:Moralis/sandbox
727:Relisting comment:
790:
744:
496:
476:
456:
436:
380:There's no doubt
108:Guide to deletion
98:How to contribute
71:
867:
807:
777:
775:
773:
731:
724:
722:
382:NY Center exists
369:
368:
354:
306:
305:
291:
243:
242:
228:
180:
168:
150:
88:
70:
68:
61:
34:
875:
874:
870:
869:
868:
866:
865:
864:
863:
857:deletion review
803:
791:
768:
766:
745:
717:
715:
628:Aviation Weekly
519:Keep and reduce
311:
248:
185:
176:
141:
125:
122:
85:
82:
64:
62:
48:The result was
41:deletion review
30:
22:
21:
20:
12:
11:
5:
873:
871:
862:
861:
843:
842:
812:
776:
765:
764:
763:
730:
725:
714:
713:
712:
711:
710:
694:
656:
655:
647:
646:
642:
641:
632:
624:
616:
607:
590:
579:
578:
577:
576:
575:
574:
538:
537:
516:
498:
497:
477:
457:
437:
372:
371:
308:
245:
182:
121:
120:
115:
105:
100:
83:
81:
76:
46:
45:
25:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
872:
860:
858:
854:
850:
845:
844:
841:
837:
833:
829:
826:
823:
820:
816:
813:
811:
808:
806:
801:
800:SportingFlyer
796:
793:
792:
789:
785:
781:
774:
771:
762:
758:
754:
750:
747:
746:
743:
739:
735:
728:
723:
720:
709:
706:
703:
699:
695:
692:
688:
684:
680:
675:
674:
673:
670:
669:
665:
664:
658:
657:
653:
649:
648:
644:
643:
639:
638:
633:
630:
629:
625:
622:
621:
617:
614:
613:
608:
606:
602:
598:
595:
591:
588:
584:
581:
580:
573:
569:
565:
561:
558:
557:
556:
553:
550:
546:
542:
541:
540:
539:
536:
532:
528:
524:
520:
517:
515:
511:
507:
503:
500:
499:
495:
491:
487:
483:
478:
475:
471:
467:
463:
458:
455:
451:
447:
443:
438:
435:
431:
427:
423:
418:
417:
416:
415:
412:
409:
404:
399:
396:
394:
388:
385:
383:
378:
375:
367:
363:
360:
357:
353:
349:
345:
342:
339:
336:
333:
330:
327:
324:
321:
317:
314:
313:Find sources:
309:
304:
300:
297:
294:
290:
286:
282:
279:
276:
273:
270:
267:
264:
261:
258:
254:
251:
250:Find sources:
246:
241:
237:
234:
231:
227:
223:
219:
216:
213:
210:
207:
204:
201:
198:
195:
191:
188:
187:Find sources:
183:
179:
175:
172:
166:
162:
158:
154:
149:
145:
140:
136:
132:
128:
124:
123:
119:
116:
113:
109:
106:
104:
101:
99:
96:
95:
94:
92:
87:
80:
77:
75:
74:
69:
67:
59:
55:
51:
44:
42:
38:
33:
27:
26:
19:
848:
846:
832:RebeccaGreen
814:
802:
794:
767:
748:
734:Jovanmilic97
726:
716:
667:
662:
650:Williamson,
636:
627:
619:
611:
593:
582:
547:for it? --
518:
501:
400:
397:
389:
386:
379:
376:
373:
361:
355:
347:
340:
334:
328:
322:
312:
298:
292:
284:
277:
271:
265:
259:
249:
235:
229:
221:
214:
208:
202:
196:
186:
173:
84:
65:
57:
49:
47:
31:
28:
821:. This one
338:free images
275:free images
212:free images
780:Randykitty
691:WP:PRIMARY
592:McCartin,
587:WP:CLEANUP
486:Sheldybett
466:Sheldybett
446:Sheldybett
426:Sheldybett
393:WP:PRIMARY
66:Sandstein
853:talk page
634:Spencer,
506:DannyS712
37:talk page
855:or in a
770:Relisted
719:Relisted
702:RoySmith
663:Spinning
609:Thomas,
549:RoySmith
408:RoySmith
171:View log
112:glossary
39:or in a
753:Sekicho
564:Moralis
527:Moralis
344:WP refs
332:scholar
281:WP refs
269:scholar
218:WP refs
206:scholar
144:protect
139:history
89:New to
795:Delete
705:(talk)
687:WP:GNG
603:, and
552:(talk)
502:Delete
411:(talk)
316:Google
253:Google
190:Google
148:delete
50:delete
679:PATCO
668:Spark
545:WP:RS
523:ARTCC
403:WP:RS
359:JSTOR
320:books
296:JSTOR
257:books
233:JSTOR
194:books
178:Stats
165:views
157:watch
153:links
16:<
836:talk
805:talk
784:talk
757:talk
749:Keep
738:talk
683:WP:N
605:here
601:here
597:here
583:Keep
568:talk
531:talk
510:talk
490:talk
470:talk
450:talk
430:talk
352:FENS
326:news
289:FENS
263:news
226:FENS
200:news
161:logs
135:talk
131:edit
54:WP:V
366:TWL
303:TWL
240:TWL
169:– (
838:)
786:)
759:)
740:)
599:,
570:)
533:)
512:)
492:)
484:.
472:)
464:.
452:)
444:.
432:)
424:.
346:)
283:)
220:)
163:|
159:|
155:|
151:|
146:|
142:|
137:|
133:|
58:is
834:(
782:(
755:(
736:(
566:(
529:(
508:(
488:(
468:(
448:(
428:(
370:)
362:·
356:·
348:·
341:·
335:·
329:·
323:·
318:(
310:(
307:)
299:·
293:·
285:·
278:·
272:·
266:·
260:·
255:(
247:(
244:)
236:·
230:·
222:·
215:·
209:·
203:·
197:·
192:(
184:(
181:)
174:·
167:)
129:(
114:)
110:(
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.