930:- I'm frankly surprised that this should require any further discussion, after the opinions above were virtually unanimously for keeping the article, except for the dissenting opinion of the initiator of the deletion request. In any case, the presented reasoning for deletion is without merit. More so, I believe that following up with deleting this article, essentially based on the gut feeling of one user, would set a dangerous precedent, which would potentially give way to deletion discussions for virtually any article on topics pertaining to history, which by definition will contain facts that may not be verifiable any longer, since the witnesses or records are most often not readily accessible anymore. What is important to be understood is that this is part of the fundamental nature of the matter of authoring of texts on the subject of history and biographical material on subjects which are no longer around. In general, the discussion has yet to bring forward a valid reason for deletion. One, the notability of the subject of the article has not been questioned. And two, the article generally does well (where it can) by being adequately sourced and this has not been questioned either. Much rather, part of the discussion here seems to be related to the nature of the claims presented in the sources themselves (of which many are tabloid newspapers). While many of the claims on the subject's life presented in these sources may be impossible for us to verify, this circumstance is not of relevance to this article itself. This is because the fact that these stories on the subject‘s life were widely publicized, found widespread attention and became part of public canon (even if mostly geograhically restrained to parts of Florida), makes them historically relevant and thus worth preserving. Even if the article is deleted, the fact that the stories were widely published (and read) will never be reversed. The stories themselves that this article references are by now of public relevance, because they have shaped an enduring image of a notable subject, whether verifiable or not. The article in itself is valuable in collecting the publicly available information of the subject, which would otherwise remain scattered across archives.
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various editions of playboy). It reads, in essence, like a movie plot, and I get the feeling that that is what it actually is. I recommend reading the pre-cleanup version in full; it makes so many incredible claims that I came to the conclusion that nothing in this article should be taken at face value, simply because it all seems massively over-exaggerated. I have no confidence in any information included in it. Hence
571:. I decided to attempt a (risky) speedy because I realised that while the promotional content may be removable, the fundamental issues this article has cannot be addressed without a full rewrite. It has been cultivated by a single SPA for years, and while concerns about serious reliability issues were
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the objections and carried on. encountered copyright violations, unreliable sources, and a bunch of highly questionable claims (see the page history to see my attempts at cleanup). The article makes a number of exceptional claims and backs them up with sources that are questionable at best, including
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Swinging the axe means deleting it outright. I can swing that axe on my own authority, but in this case I want the community to weigh in on the matter before I delete the article because I don't see a clear cut case here for G11. If the community feels it should be deleted, then the axe is swung and
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them. His claims about himself being dubious is not an issue (we cover fiction on Wiki) so long as their dubiousness is also highlighted and they are described as claims, not stated as facts. Speedy is most definitely not supposed to be used for cases like this - it is not simply a nuke button that
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The subject is evidently a fixture in the cultural scene in Miami, with other former Cuba inhabitants like Ernest
Hemingway in the mix. Consequently he has sculpted/photo'd some actors and sold a strand to Mrs. Hemingway, which is written up about in some mags and books, and this seems sufficiently
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do not endorse an editor rejecting every self-made claim, and even allows those found in his own autobiography, provided it is non-controversial. Your criterion seems to be that you feel entitled to remove a non-controversial self-made claim even if it is from a secondary source, and I'm asserting
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per The Miami Herald: "Any recounting of his history must carry a disclaimer: The only person who could separate fact from fiction in his colorful life died of liver cancer just after midnight May 29 at Mount Sinai
Medical Center in Miami Beach". We have very good reasons to be skeptical about the
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one of the first pilots of rocket-powered aircraft? It is likely that some of the claims presented are true, it is likely that some aren't; but given the quality, appropriateness concerns (see Diff above) and inaccessibility of the sources (I doubt anyone will be able to find many 1962 issues of
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Seems notable, although COI applies, as it was written by Sepy1031, and his Wiki activity revolved around Sepy's page only. (Tho' it couldn't be him, since the article was written in 2011, and Sepy died in 2010. Most likely one of his fans or someone among those lines must've written it.)
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Veracity or not of various incidents of his life is a page-quality issue, similar to that of any other notable fabulist or charlatan. Simply stating the points of his life over which there was some doubt (i.e., the queen has not acknowledged that the underwear sold were actually
847:"Today. ME- and the Gold-Plated Girls", which is the source for that specific claim), we would essentially have to hat half the article with "the following may or may not be true". Alternatively, we could be left with a two-sentence stub. So yes, I think WP:TNT applies here.
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The statement of having $ 150 on one's person as a refugee, might be controversial in your assessment, but thousands if not millions of refugees have a similar experience to tell with no way to substantiate if that was the actual sum on money they had on them.
608:, where his art studio became a mecca for various celebrities. Skipping half the page, we then find claims that he traveled to 89 countries, climbed mount Kilimanjaro and the Matterhorn, was injured by an arrow to his leg while being in New Guinea to
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308:. Dobronyi is notable as a well-known playboy with at least two major incidents of notability (the dispute over his making of a nude statue of a Hollywood star, the auctioning of Queen Elizabeth II's under wear) and probably many others.
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And no, you shouldn't have used the clinical term regardless of your professional background. And if you feel that my edits are a sign of "entitlement", you can follow BRD and revert them all. Twinkle has a great function for that.
604:, spoke six languages, walked from Budapest to Sweden through occupied territory (despite the chronology implying that this was post-war), designed a brooch for Queen Elizabeth's wedding, then went to Caracas with
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later, just noting that I don't appreciate the suggestion that someone who holds an opposing viewpoint must be mentally unwell, nor the insinuation that I am merely being lazy here. Also dropping
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The reason for the CSD tag was G11 (unambiguous promotion), I should have mentioned that in the nomination statement but it is - as you correctly point out - not present. Sorry about that.
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I second the lengthy and thoughtful comment by TwentyEightyFour. The article is well-referenced and supported, and I am puzzled by the desire to delete good encyclopedic information.--
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I am not here to litigate specific claims made in the article. The problem is that the text makes no indication of whether these are claims or presented as fact by the sources; did he
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Dobronyi's trademark while living in Cuba, was a pocket full of shark's teeth which he passed out to the girls of his choice. Over 600 females are a member of the Shark tooth club.
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612:, only to recover within three days with the help of the natives, shot a lion that was charging at him, etc. etc. I have little faith in the credibility of the article.
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Also a false perception of anachronism, bcz nothing strange about difficulty in getting visas to a (formerly) occupied state in the immediate post-war months. --
398:, I don't see anything particularly wrong with the many offline sources listed, so if there's no problem with notability or verifiability, why are we at AfD?
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that the sourcing was actually as presented by the person who added it and as such would support notability. Even if not I think this is at the very least a
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However, other people e.g. book illustrators tend to get this sort of silent treatment, and that should not automatically establish non-notability, IMO.
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357:"If a subject is notable and the content could plausibly be replaced with text written from a neutral point of view, this is preferable to deletion"
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and royal crown jeweler, aristocrat, art collector, world traveler, movie maker, pilot, wine collector, sportsman, playboy, and bon vivant
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Longstanding article with some notability which I would prefer have the community weigh in on rather than swing the axe (scythe?) myself.
455:, and looks like no critical piece on his "art", so one might argue he is not notable enough for his "art" (sculpture, jewelry, photo).
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here to support my argument about the doubtful reliability of the article, even when it comes to claims that are apparently sourced.
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Yes, well, I admit I am not a psychiatrist, so maybe I should have avoided a clinical term, but the point is
Knowledge rules as per
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stuff. The subject is clearly notable based simply on the obituary references. If an editor is being permanently disruptive then
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I did a bunch of cleanup before I finally gave up and G11d the article. For reference, it previously looked like
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G11 is a speed deletion tag and clearly this is not an article that should be speedily deleted. Like G11 says,
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held in prison in occupied
Hungary but managed to escape in one day and immediately returned to Budapest
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but stubify. This could be cut down to a couple paragraphs. It is chock full of trivia at the moment.
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the article dies, otherwise it stays where it is and someone who gives a damn about it can fix it up.
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has been stated. Most of the sourcing in the article (which is plentiful) is offline. All I can do is
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put shirts on artists' backs and bankbooks in their pocket for the first time in the island's history
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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And non-outlandish claims like having "only $ 150.00" as an escapee, you can let slide.
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should deal with editing issues by methods other than total annihilation (deletion).
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To clarify: Pre-cleanup, the article claimed, among other things, that the subject
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was one of six pilots chosen to try out the world's first Rocket-powered aircraft.
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grounds. To be honest I think a lot people are being way too trigger-happy with
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You don't need to get so compulsive-obsessive about purging every claim either.
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article retains discussion of his (fictitious) Romani descent claim.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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here but clearly the article is saveable - just delete the
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for the sake of being a reliable encyclopaedia and per
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only $ 150.00, his suitcase and the suit on his back
911:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
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43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1012:). No further edits should be made to this page.
359:. Clearly this is a notable subject at least on
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Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.