175:. FAA has published no information on this topic, including no information on claimed testing. No building permits have been issued nor applied for the supposed pilot plant. While the company has applied for a patent, the patent has not yet been granted, and patents do not grant notability, much less patent applications. No 3rd party source has established performance or notability beyond the press buzz. If the pilot plant building permit is granted, the article can be recreated. Until then, this is nothing more than vaporware. Original closer of AfD noted that the arguments in favor of keeping were heavily loaded with large numbers of
336:. The article has sources, although primarily it's Cringely as noted. The thing is, the article that the sources would let us write is not encyclopedic. There really isn't anything to say other than "this product might be made, and if so, it might be a big deal". So, we have the fairly rare situation in which the sources that provide the article's notability don't really confirm verifiability of its claims. If you strip the article down to what is verifiable, there's not much left. No prejudice to another article when new sources appear.
620:, there is no evidence that the editors of the article are presenting original research or "ideas which they or their friends have come up with, such as a new ball game invented in the park, a new word or phrase invented in the playground, a new language, or a new drinking game invented at a particularly memorable party." Other reliable sources HAVE written about this new invention. The editors of the article feel this is notable, and are documenting the information available from these sources.
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made their inventor rich. Note the past tense. Second, pet rocks have enough information about them to move beyond permastub status. Things such as imitators, economic trends and impact, notable owners, and popular culture references could all be used to expand the article. The current swiftfuel article, however, does not have the possibility of being significantly expanded or improved because the information necessary to do that does not exist. See
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government. It has not been endorsed by a single media organization as a proven success. It has received mention on a slow news day of some new thing that might have potential, or might not. I both contribute to the article because all articles should be encyclopedic and complete, while at the same time I consider this to be non-notable. I stand as a counterexample to your statement.
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give one an idea of how tiny this plant is, 2500 square feet can be visualized as a square 50 feet on a side. That is only the size of a moderate chemistry lab classrom! Claiming that my assertion is not supported by evidence, particularly without providing counterevidence, only obscures the underlying reality of my statement regarding the size of the plant.
246:. After the initial press buzz in June, not a single significant 3rd party mention of the fuel appears on google separate from re-reports of the initial buzz. It is well established that initial press buzz does not establish notability. More importantly, having a wikipedia article lends legitimacy to the product which does not exist yet in a meaningful way.
361:. The fact remains the AFD was closed with a keep decision only 2 months ago, making it too soon for an AFD renomination. I agree there are issues that need to be addressed with the article, but time needs to be given for such improvements to be made. I've no objection if the article is renominated in another few months if improvments have not been made.
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coming to light. I have no objection to the article being recreated once sufficient information comes to light such that the article meets wikipedia inclusion criteria. Check the page history and look at the changes between the old afd version and the current one to see what improvements have been made.
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Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree with you that we don't need to remove all of the information on swiftfuel from wikipedia, but we agree on the fundamental point that there really isn't enough information to make a good article. Your paraphrase is right on the mark. I would have no particular
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4 There is no "typical" size for a pilot plant, but the whole purpose of a pilot plant is one that is large enough to grant useful experience to the company in a production-scale environment. Looking at the patent for swiftfuel, there are at least 6 different chemical constituents in their fuel blend
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2 That misses my point. The speculative event is whether the pilot plant will be built, not whether there are meetings to talk about it. There are meeting to talk about corporate projects and building projects every day across the country. A large number of such projects never get off the ground. The
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First, there is no "100LL problem" as such, and
Swiftfuel is not a major player in any case, for three reasons. First, the FAA/EPA can extend the waiver at any time. Second, alternative high-octane fuel options are available commercially that do not contain lead, such as E98. Granted that they have a
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As a side note, the supposed "2500 sq foot pilot plant" is microscopic as far as industrial facilities of that type go. How they plan to store, process and manage all of the chemicals, organic materials, fermenters, and related stuff in such a tiny space is highly suspicious. Locating the pilot plant
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into appropriate existing or new articles. The "100LL problem" story of environmental concerns, unleaded alternatives, improper operating temperatures, excessive valve wear, fuel system corrosion, aviation "incidents" and the development of various avgas alternatives is itself
Knowledge-worthy. If
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I agree that the
Swiftfuel article cannot currently be expanded much since there is currently not much more information available. The article, as a standalone, might be premature, and the information might be best placed somewhere else. I do think that, when people come looking for information on
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are verified and almost certain. However, they do not lend any kind of certainty to the plant being built. The pilot plant is still future speculation until a building permit is issued officially. When that happens, we have near certainty (even though the second requisite part, notability, is still
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Just as a side not, the article has undergone massive revision between the original AFD closure and now (with myself adopting the article as an active editor, among others). Currently the article contains all information on the topic, and is not likely to be improved further without new information
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100LL is a problem for small aircraft owners. GA news organizations call this "one of the biggest problems facing GA". This makes it notable. Small aircraft owners are concerned about the waiver expiring, about makers getting out of the 100LL business, and about how the price goes up faster than
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is inapt. The idea of a pet rock has become one cited in numerous sources, and has become something of a joke for 'get rich quick' schemes that don't really contribute to society. The differences between swiftfuel and pet rocks are striking. First and foremost, pet rocks were successful, and they
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is just one of many sources that allows one to look at similar industrial processes and approximate yield per square foot. At typical biorefinery sites, 3-10 gallons per square foot per year is typical. This means that the pilot plant could produce a maximum of 25000 gallons of 100LL per year. To
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to complete. Piping, heaters, storage tanks, etc, require a lot of space, not to mention fermenters and distillers, separators, blending units, etc. I would guess that a plant of this type would expect to be at least 25000 - 100000 square feet minimum, just based on the synthesis information in
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Cringly does get noticed, but if you read his article on energy issues (since the article isn't about swiftfuel) he only mentions the stuff and refrains from making any claim about whether or not this is any good. To me that's an important consideration, because even though PBS and
Cringly are
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5 The editors are presenting an idea (myself included, since I am a significant contributor to the article) that someone came up with one day. It has not been published in an academic journal of any reputation, much less a reliable one. It has not been recognized as a unique invention by any
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for 100LL. If we look at the articles for each of those compounds/compound families, we can see that each one has a separate method of synthesis. Depending on what level of integration this plant will have that is a lot of piping, storage and control tanks, and will be quite a feat of
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What to do when the reliable sources are wrong? Who knows. In the end I lean towards delete because there seems to basically be ONE source -- the
Cringely one. However, keeping would not be a disaster, as long as the article makes clear that there's really nothing beyond the name.
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2-6 Your discussion of how
Swiftfuel is different from pet rock has helped me to understand your point of view on the notability of the topic. If I may paraphrase -- the pet rock may have been a flash in the pan, but Swiftfuel has never even flashed. You have a
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Two months is hardly "too soon" for a renomination, especially considering the weaknesses in the keep decision and the fact that no new information on the topic has materialized in the last two months to substantiate either notability or, really, verifiability.
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meet its stated short-term product development goals, with 6-month and 1-year horizons. If the product fails or is exposed as a scam or hoax, the topic, still notable, can be merged into a new article on alternative energy failures, hoaxes, and scams.
603:-- article cites a newspaper article stating that, not only is there an airport meeting, but that Swift Enterprise's pilot plant proposal is on the agenda -- almost certain. Article does not "speculate on what might become well known in the future."
526:. First, mere mention in a single reliable source as part of press buzz (Cringely) is not sufficient to establish notability. Even given that, with no building permit applied for, no patent granted, only applied for, this is still to speculative.
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lower energy density than 100LL, but this means that swiftfuel is not our "only hope" for a 100LL replacement. Third, swift enterprises is not in a position to have any kind of supply chain in place for the expiring waiver in a year and a half.
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Claim that "2500 sq foot pilot plant is microscopic as far as industrial facilities of that type go" is not supported by evidence, and do not support statment that the company's claimed product development plans are a "suspicious" "marketing
427:, as evidenced by buzz in Aviation news. Article should be improved to show relevance to the 100LL problem -- if Swiftfuel fails, some planes will be unable to fly as there will be no fuel for them when 100LL is banned in 2010. --
445:. Local newspaper reporter verifies that product's owners have met with local government officials and airport board in public meetings (July 24), and are on the agenda for a future meeting (August 28).
497:. The press buzz has established a certain level of visibility. However, should this fall through or fail to get off the ground, no one will remember this years from now, hence the invocation of
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that of other fuels. E98 is not a suitable alternative for higher-compression engines because of knocking problems, and unsuitable for many older planes because they cannot use ethanol fuels.
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in a reliable source (even though its a pretty big mention) when the article is on another topic (energy independence) this is not something I would put down as establishing real notability.
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Third, what we have verified is that a meeting is scheduled for Aug 28. Just as being able to verify that a meeting is going to take place does not satisfy the dual requirement of both
160:
734:. Aeromarkt is an online GA news magazine. Airport Business covers the GA beat. AOPA online, the magazine of the AOPA, offers a position piece on avgas replacements.
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at an airport seems to indicate that they intend to market the fuel product there, but with the size of the plant, this seems unlikely or at best a marketing stunt.
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this topic will be sufficient for inclusion in wikipedia when it has met those goals, and reliable sources have reported on it. This is the very definition of
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Neither the initial press buzz, patent applications, nor the grandiose statements about a pilot plant and big plans are sufficient to establish notability
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objection to mentioning swiftfuel being mentioned in any of several articles or lists (including 100LL, or lists of developmental biofuels, etc).
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Swiftfuel (what it is, whether it is available, who cares about
Swiftfuel and why), they should be able to find this information at Knowledge.
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Finally, for those tired of alternative energy failures, scams, and hoaxes, the article can show whether the company can
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Swiftfuel information gets moved out into other appropriate articles, the article would then be empty. --
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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I don't support deleting this article. I might support merging sections of
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Fourth, Claims that a 2500 sq foot pilot plant is unsupported by evidence:
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1 Which GA news organizations? What is your citation for your quote?
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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for why the potential impact argument for swiftfuel is invalid.
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than nothing, although it may be prone to disputatiousness.. ~
242:. Not only is this not "highly notable" as you state, this is
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says preserve this information. The information is notable.
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wikipedia for the component parts of their 100LL fuel alone.
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Finally, in terms of its short term development goals, per
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260:I take your point about ephemeral notoriety
609:What is the size of a typical pilot plant?
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