1563:- as unneeded wikia-type fan content which looks at every detail of a fictional world without analysis of its actual importance in the literature or without it. Passing GNG has never been the sole threshold to having a standalone article. I understand that a lot of people are passionate about Harry Potter and there is nothing wrong with that, but there are much better places to get Harry Potter information than WP. I fail to see how a list of potions is central to the literary importance of Harry Potter. There are plenty of HP pages which go into considerable depth and if a potion is important it can and probably should be noted elsewhere, but having a list which literally... lists.. every spell which is mentioned regardless of importance is just a fan activity. WP does not go into depth with tabloid-type content - even though there are always sufficient and in-depth sources. The same can be true here - coverage of something does not mean that we need an article which looks at every detail of the topic. Stats are another example - we avoid having articles which are just stats, even though there are considerable sources which discuss just stats. Instead, we discuss stats on the individual, team, or event pages. Same should be here - the spells can be mentioned but we do not need a list that is just spells.
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remark about the word "ubbly" being a pun on bubbly is, errr, serious analysis? For "Confusing and
Befuddlement Draught (also Confusing Concoction)", the analysis is saying that JKR did not invent the concept of the "potion of confusion" and the idea is not novel. Errr. Ok. But again, this is a hard cry from any analysis. We might as well say that the ideas of magical potions is not new, JKR was obviously inspired by previous works and such, so it is notable because... what exactly? The point is, nowehere in this book do I see any non-passing analysis of the concept of potions in Potterverse. It's all plot, plus a few passing remarks that in no way, shape or form meet what I consider to be signifnicant, in-depth analysis of the topic. Nobody is saying that potions in Potterverse, or even Potion XYZ from it, is blah blah literary theory blah blah for any consequential length. Those all, from top to bottom, appear to be mentions in passing, 99% plot-based. And consider that we don't even have an article on
478:. I can believe there is or could be a similar treatment of potions and still think this would thus be notable based on the existing sources and the distinct possibility there are such treatments. Yet I think you have a point. This page is not that treatment. Instead what we have here is largely - no entirely - plot summary. The notable aspects of the subject are not being treated here and this page is more akin to the list of spells (deleted) than the Magic in Harry Potter (retained). As such I think a merge would be highly desirable. There is probably a notable subject here, but this page is not it. Thus I am updating my recommendation to merge. --
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It's true we deleted List of spells.., which is even more important, and that needs to be reconsidered . Considering the amount of effort we devote --and should devote, as one of the key functions of an encyclopedia-- to covering minor works for which relatively few people have heard but are nonetheless notable, it's peculiar that we don't give adequate coverage to the ones that actually are important. . The way it sometimes looks, we say that
992:(her last). Long before that, Sophocles wrote that Athena tricked Ajax into confusing sheep with menâwhich is highly inconvenient during war-time! Key ingredients include lovage (historically used as a medicinal tea), scurvy-grass (once a treatment for scurvy or vitamin C deficiency), and sneezewort (a form of yarrow to which many people are allergic). See Chapter 10 for more on these ingredients, all of which you can grow in your backyard.
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Anointing of the Sick, also called Last Rites.) Because we don't know the ingredients for this potion, nor do we know anything about Dr. Ubbly, we can only assume that it is a salve of some sort that's intended to make people oblivious to the world around them (and could, therefore, have a strong connection toâor even be the same potion asâa
Confusing Concotion) or forget something uncomfortable or terrifying they've seen.
1398:- Cunard, I do not disagree with you (see my !vote above), but the page under discussion does have a problem that it currently only focuses on the plot elements and not the above notable aspects. Deletion is not for clean up, so I stand by my keep/merge !vote, but I would hope that the focus of this article would change in response to this AfD. If not then we will no doubt be seeing 4th nomination before too long. --
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could be done through merge process to allow editors there a chance to consider article size. So then the question is whether either of these should exist, and I notice there are sources in both articles that suggest notability, and potentially many more that can go in available with a google. Scholar and books also show up sources, and these were established in the AfD second nomination
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before he checks the clock to see how late he got home; sharing a little with a police officer as he or she is writing him a ticket or to a bank teller or store clerk who is counting out his change; slipping a little to a witness in a court case. A good wizard could easily go bad with powers such as these.
643:: There are six non-fiction works of literary criticism currently cited on the page. Yes, they talk about the plot function, because it's writing about fiction, and you need to discuss the items in the context of the narrative. Also, I agree with Andy Dingley that Clarityfiend's comment about "breaking
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in light of the current Covid-19 pandemic, and of course it's been redirected without merge. I have no less than three dead-tree books which cover that episode, but not the time to put out fires started by those with plenty of time to redirect, but never a finger lifted to improve. I sincerely regret
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doesn't even have an in fiction section, and all we have is this big pile of fancrut that still does not show any connection to non-plot element, and I am sorry, your sources so far do not seem to suggest such connections exist. Please, prove me wrong and cite a paragraph from any of those works that
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I do appreciate your good faithed contributions, Cunard, but if this is the best source, err. I mean, look at the examples posted. I can only assume you chose the best. "Dr. Ubbly's
Oblivious Unction" has no " mythological, Biblical, or literary backgroung", it's pure plot, unless you think that the
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product that is applied to the scalp; Skele-Gro is a horrible steaming potion that burns as it goes down and causes the painful regrowing of bones to commence. It is used not to make wizards taller but to regrow limbs that have been severed or otherwise cursed to no longer have working bones in them.
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A Confusing and
Befuddlement Draught is meant to befuddle and, therefore, distract the user. This potion is likely used on Muggles who have seen possible wizard activities, but think of how a rather evil wizard could find it useful in other situations: pouring a smidgeon into his dad's nightcap just
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as the justification for deletion (the list being a non notable plot summary fork). The magic page has a heading and paragraph on potions with a link to this page, making this a sub page of that one. So this page could be merged back into there, but the page is already large. Merge would be fine but
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Cunard has , as is frequently the case, has shown that this meets the technical requirements. Major plot elements in major fiction should have articles, especially when they are complex as this. The depth of the coverage of fictional elements depends upon the cultural importance of the fiction.
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Skele-Gro, a potion of unknown ingredients given to wizards who need to regrow one or more bones, is an apt wordplay on a Muggle product called HairGro, which, like its wizarding counterpart, encourages a part of the human body to grow at unusual rates. HairGro has the advantage of being a topical
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To be "oblivious" is to be unaware, and "unction" refers to an oil or salve, usually a soothing or comforting one, used for religious or medicinal purposes. ("Unction" also refers to rubbing into or sprinkling oil onto the body; thus, Extreme
Unction is the term used by the Catholic Church for the
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The final section of this chapter lists the common potions you'll find in the wizarding world, most of which clean something, cure some ailment, or cause wizards to behave in ways they otherwise wouldn't. Each of the following sections describes the purpose of the potion, lists its ingredients (if
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Wolfsbane Potion may be the most valuable potion available to wizards: it allows a werewolf to lead a normal life by keeping him or her from transfiguring fully into a werewolf at each full moonâthe body still transforms, but the mind doesnât. The potionâs main ingredient is aconite (also called
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which lists plenty of sources. The nom. does not attempt to discuss or refute these sources. The argument about adjusting policy on lists does not alter the fact that there are sources establishing notability. The subject is generally notable, although most sources do tend to use the cultural
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as GNG is met, and anything else involving focusing on the real-world commentary is just cleanup. As far as some of the NOTHERE arguments above, I have found that multiple fiction AfD participants (that is, those inclined to not keep such elements) are entirely unconvinced by the presence of
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Rowling reveals that this potion was invented by "Damocles Belby." (Belby is a town in East
Yorkshire, England.) An earlier Damocles was a Greek royal attendant who upset the ruler at that time, Dionysius, and was repaid by having a sword suspended over his head, held there by a single hair.
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with elemen ts of OR. There were in the past arguments that it may past LISTN but as recent deletions of many similar lists have demonstrated, we need a discussion that goes beyond plot summaries, and so far nobody has shown anything on this topic that is not 100% a plot summary. Thoughts? A
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sigh -- per Andy
Dingley, this is part of the indiscriminate nomination of fiction by Piotrus. This is a fundamental core part of the scholarship of Harry Potter -- the Poly-juice potion is a very particular part of how the characters develop, and as ToughPigs points out you already have a
626:. It seems to be in poor shape, but I'd imagine that topic can establish itself. This list is a bunch of trivial plot information. I'd imagine the topic of potions in general warrants a paragraph or two in the main article, but it doesn't appear there is much worth merging at this point.
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even if it meets the WP:N. It's as if we made a agreement to have rules in order to interpret them in the stupidest way possible, just to show how clever we are at being paradoxical. (I used to try to do that a good deal, when I was 5 years old, but now we're almost 21. )
1372:, potions are discussed on pages 150â161. The book notes (my bolding), "The final section of this chapter lists the common potions you'll find in the wizarding world, most of which clean something, cure some ailment, or cause wizards to behave in ways they otherwise wouldn't.
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and multiple other such articles where the cultural relevance of the
Potterverse is used to make some other point. But then, what these do not do is that they do not treat the potions as a subject for a treatment on its own, although it turns out that food in HP does get such
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One note, however: doctors don't exist in the wizarding world, so this potion may have originated in the Muggle world. "Healer Ubbly" would be more likely, if this were, indeed, a uniquely wizard potion. Ubbly, on the other hand, evokes a strong sense of a bubbly cauldron
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Through a combination of theoretical and practical work, students learn about the preparation and effects of magical potions and substances. They also study poisons and antidotes, and learn about the attributes of different potion ingredients, from everday to the exotic.
52:. I was going to relist this, as it hasn't been yet, but (a) it's been open 13 days already, (b) it's pretty clear that there's absolutely no consensus on what to do, and (c) unlike a number of these types of discussions, reasonable points have been made on all sides.
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This "information external to the work" requirement is clearly met by the first source, which says, "Each of the following sections describes the purpose of the potion, lists its ingredients (if known), and discusses any additional mythological, Biblical, or literary
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might be a good compromise. PPS. Also, please consider this article has no reception, development, significance, and the sources used or cited in the past don't contain any suggestion such a section is possible. This is the very definition of non-encyclopedic
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notable outside the books. There is next to no referenced content to merge back up anyway. It's overspilled fancruft all the way. PS. The spells would appear, logically, more 'in-universe' notable anyway, and they are already gone, thanks to
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I fail to see anything resembling an in-depth analysis that's not plot related. Saying that JKR used the word
Damocles and then retelling the story of real world related legend is not analysis. Neither is a speculation about connection to
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mostly plot summary. The actual information from the sources that do provide more can be easily integrated into the main article of magic in the franchise without needing to be split into a separate list of largely non-notable examples.
834:, as the sources here are not used to support anything besides in-universe information, and what little information they can provide would be much better suited over on the Magic page than on this collection of in-universe fancruft.
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With just one nip, a wizard's entire life is changed: there is no cure, and even though the illness can be kept under control, wizards are so afraid of werewolves that they do everything in their power to push them out of polite
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I fail to see how this is in-depth coverage, few mentions in passing, most of it plot-related. If this is the best we have, I can only reaffirm my initial assessment. This is fancruft with not a smudge of real world notability.
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Harry Potter articles, in the context of an AfD, not deleting any articles related to Harry Potter. It shouldn't be inappropriate to say that fancruft that isn't, and will never be notable, should be kept.
1491:. It's like trying to argue that Star Wars is notable solely because it names implies connection to real world notable concept of stars and wars. C'mon. It's clear there are just no good sources here. --
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Here is sample analysis where the author makes a connection between
Wolfsbane Potion's inventor Damocles Belby and the Damocles who was a Greek royal attendant (my bolding of the key piece of analysis):
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there's enough of them that I don't see the value of a merge - will just result in something that needs splitting. Enough have usages in the common vernacular now that I don;t see sourcing as an issue.
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There are many notable elements of the Harry Potter verse. But I have doubts that the list of fictional potions used in it is one of them. I don't see any evidence this topics passes NFICTION/GNG. Pure
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per Cunard's sound analysis. Most of the delete !votes are simply arguments that an encyclopedia should not be encyclopedic or unsound efforts to evade the plain terms of the GNG.
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Each of the following sections describes the purpose of the potion, lists its ingredients (if known), and discusses any additional mythological, Biblical, or literary background.
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for being a mere plot summary. Having secondary sources that repeat facts that can be found in the plot, doesn't establish notability. However, it's possible that this is a
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information typically provided by secondary sources about the original work, or primary and secondary sources about information external to the work:".
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relevance of Harry Potter to make other wider points. Yet they do mention the potions and the magic. The subject is notable outside of the books. --
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1675:. This page seems too specific and can be easily be included in here. It also seems like specific fan-content, like something you would find on
1417:, as far as I can tell, this literary device has not been analyzed much, through maybe as a general trope it is notable. But so far article on
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monkshood and wolfsbane), a member of the buttercup family that has long been used in small quantities for medicinal purposesâsee Chapter 10.
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that taking care of actual living humans as a medical provider has curtailed my Knowledge presence and participation, but it is what it is.
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The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong!
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Thus the term "the sword of Damocles" refers to an impending tragedy, which is exactly how wizards must feel about werewolves.
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The "additional mythological, Biblical, or literary background" for each potion means this is not primarily "plot-related".
894:." I will show below that "potions in Harry Potter" has been treated as a "a group or set by independent reliable sources".
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dead-tree, written, independently published secondary sources which cover fictional elements. I logged in today to review
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Confusing potions aren't unique to the wizarding world. George Eliot wrote about a "confusing potion" in her 1876 novel,
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in the outside world (deep coverage by reliable secondary sources and impact in popular culture) has not been proven. --
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Presumably boosts brain power. It is sold as a black-market concentration and study aid for OWL and NEWT students.
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re the Tolkien universe for things that aren't mentioned in the redirect target weaken my position somewhat.
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My apologies, I spoke imprecisely. I did not think what you said about plot summaries applied to these refs:
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377:] I did not disagree with that deletion, so I went there to check the deletion reasons and found mention of
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as a GNG pass, per the excellent case laid out by Cunard. It's a pretty simple call based on that, really.
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Next time, try to get the quote right. I said nothing about getting rid of all the Harry Potter articles.
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1583:- Personally, I am big Potter fan, but this belongs in a specific Potterverse site, not Knowledge.
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by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a
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summaries. No analysis of literary significance, development, reception. The subject is very much
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engages not primarily with plot but with some real world elements, literary theory or such. --
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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My initial thought was delete per a deletion years ago of the list of spells in Harry Potter.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Very powerful sleeping potion containing powdered root of asphodel and infusion of wormwood.
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Contains crushed snake fangs, dried nettles, stewed horned slugs, and porcupine quills.
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is already gone, it's surprising the potions are holding on better than the spells...
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known), and discusses any additional mythological, Biblical, or literary background.
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per nom. The Tolkiencruft hunt appears to have abated. Now on to break the Pottery.
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This is just yet another "delete anything and everything to do with fiction". And
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comments in that nom. However, the deletion of the list of spells and the recent
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Here is more analysis connecting a Harry Potter potion to a real-world product:
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601:. Nothing indicates that the potions of Harry Potter are independently notable.
540:" The Tolkiencruft hunt appears to have abated. Now on to break the Pottery. "
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A Muggle's Guide to the Wizarding World: Exploring the Harry Potter Universe
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Stone found in a goat's stomach that will save a person from most poisons.
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Makes the drinker a little or a lot older, depending on how much is drunk.
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under a "Potion brewing" section (not even merge the whole list), since
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Potions in Harry Potter (2nd nomination)
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It reduces objects that have been inflated back to their original size.
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significant coverage in several major sources in the article already.
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My comments (with associated caveats) also applied to sources such as
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Knowledge:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction#Secondary information
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if something is notable by common sense, that's a reason to delete,
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will be available and will ideally be included on article creation.
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875:, the rule of thumb is that if the topic is sufficiently notable,
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list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/List of spells in Harry Potter
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Confusing and Befuddlement Draught (also Confusing Concoction)
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Knowledge:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_spells_in_Harry_Potter
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Articles for deletion/Potions in Harry Potter (4th nomination)
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Articles for deletion/Potions in Harry Potter (2nd nomination)
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to warrant articles specifically about them. As mentioned
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Knowledge:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction#Notability
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case, in which case I prefer redirection over deletion. â
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Good idea to bring more people in. Pinging the mentioned
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The Complete Idiot's Guide to the World of Harry Potter
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The Complete Idiot's Guide to the World of Harry Potter
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list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions
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per the significant coverage in multiple independent
1110:Knowledge:Notability#General notability guideline
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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701:No, it isn't. It's clear he refers to deleting
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74:Articles for deletion/Potions in Harry Potter
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131:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
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800:list of Lists-related deletion discussions
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683:Struck the "all", still inappropriate. --
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542:is so WP:NOTHERE it should be TBANable.
456:The Ultimate Harry Potter and Philosophy
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1425:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
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867:All fictional topics must meet the
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968:Here is a second sample entry on
859:The subject passes the guideline
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116:Introduction to deletion process
267:SOFTDELETE through REDIRECT to
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
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1329:. (Not pinging myself :D). --
1108:to allow the subject to pass
956:Dr. Ubbly's Oblivious Unction
269:Magic_in_Harry_Potter#Potions
1651:Confessions and Lamentations
347:Use the disappearing potion
106:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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1606:Knowledge:Notability
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1143:notes: "Examples of
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1681:WP:FANCRUFT
1679:. Textbook
1400:Sirfurboyđ
1319:User:Aoba47
1118:independent
1004:. Toronto:
703:non-notable
480:Sirfurboyđ
388:Sirfurboyđ
274:WP:FANCRUFT
225:free images
1499:reply here
1430:reply here
1355:reply here
1337:reply here
1233:Lord Opeth
1205:PWilkinson
1177:Hammersoft
1020:2016-06-18
1014:155022655X
925:2016-06-18
919:1440636613
597:, and per
591:WP:ALLPLOT
562:WP:NOTHERE
475:treatment!
425:reply here
334:reply here
311:reply here
288:reply here
1758:talk page
1465:Skele-Gro
1311:User:Reyk
1299:User:Artw
1116:that are
1006:ECW Press
783:Rorshacma
685:Toughpigs
649:Toughpigs
509:last time
37:talk page
1760:or in a
1703:Redirect
1688:Ping me!
1685:dibbydib
1656:Jclemens
1598:Redirect
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1458:society.
1396:Comment'
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1171:Pinging
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832:WP:LISTN
744:sgeureka
732:Redirect
595:WP:LISTN
184:View log
125:glossary
39:or in a
1548:Carrite
1489:HairGro
1259:), and
1035:Potions
898:Sources
873:earlier
828:WP:PLOT
709:ZXCVBNM
605:ZXCVBNM
402:WP:PLOT
264:WP:PLOT
231:WPÂ refs
219:scholar
157:protect
152:history
102:New to
1677:Fandom
1561:Delete
1474:Cunard
1419:Potion
1382:Cunard
1276:Cunard
1154:Cunard
1145:useful
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757:Sadads
740:WP:TNT
620:Delete
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522:Graham
203:Google
161:delete
1619:ÛpΔth
1535:talk
820:Merge
505:merge
417:. --
371:with
369:Merge
246:JSTOR
207:books
191:Stats
178:views
170:watch
166:links
16:<
1741:talk
1737:Artw
1732:Keep
1660:talk
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1589:talk
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1010:ISBN
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915:ISBN
851:Keep
840:talk
830:and
808:talk
787:talk
778:also
761:talk
752:Keep
713:TALK
689:talk
671:talk
653:talk
641:Keep
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536:Keep
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355:talk
239:FENS
213:news
174:logs
148:talk
144:edit
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