229:
though articles do exist on most of the bands on this list. And we're three hours from any MAJOR newspapers (DC, Baltimore, Pittsburgh) so there's nothing in those papers but rewritten press releases. These aren't bands that started yesterday or exist only in the artists' minds ... 200 North has played in Europe, Distorted
Penguins plays (literally) hundreds of shows a year as far away as Oregon. I'm not putting up articles on the smaller players in our area. But, as a reperesentation of an independent label that is making it through Word of Mouth and via the Web and DIY ethic, Pro-Gravity Records, its artists and the musicians of Cumberland/Allegany County are certainly noteworthy.
219:
pipeline. Yeah, it's only artists around
Allegany County, Maryland, but why does that in and of itself make it not worthy of inclusion? I can produce articles on most of the bands on the list from the local paper (some aren't accessible on the Website any longer), but I have a feeling those articles won't be up to snuff either. I mean, Pro-Gravity is legit (disclaimer: I am not Pro-Gravity records) ... people around here know who they are, and it's who everyone tries to release an album with. They're recognized within a good two to three hours of here and respected for their DIY/Indie footprint.
1134:
in particular) satisfy at least one of the listed notability criteria. The Pro-Gravity label meets item 7 (most notable representative...of the local scene of the city) as since its inception the label has put out the vast majority of meaningful local records in the hip-hop, rock and indie genres. As noted in earlier posts, 200 North meets item 6 (Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable) while
Distorted Penguins meets item 4 (have toured nationally).
550:
HEIGHTENS Knowledge (XXG)'s standing for people to be able to find such information. I know that I mainly use
Knowledge (XXG) to read about random, obscure tidbits. It tickles me to come here and find articles on such topics. That's when Knowledge (XXG) proves its value to me; not its ability to give me information on Britney Spears, but its ability to give me information on things like
869:, we could argue the articles' inclusion or exclusion regardless of notability ("Please note that the failure to meet any of these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, meeting any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept.") This is especially troubling, not to mention a shakey basis for deletion, as there is a separate debate (started by
908:
established publications that have an editorial policy of some note, articles that indicate the subjects of the articles are notable; in essence, we need proof that the claims in the articles are true. I haven't yet seen any independent references to the record label, nor to most of the bands, that make me feel
1133:
does not seem to be an issue here. That leaves notability as a potential basis for deletion. I admit that I am a
Knowledge (XXG) newbie; however, based on my perusal of the guidelines for music it seems clear that the Pro-Gravity label as well as several of the bands (200 North and Distorted Penguins
812:
In addition, the criteria lists "Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or of the local scene of a city," which should spare
Midnight:30 and its derivitaves. I mean, Midnight:30, essentially IS Western Maryland's hip-hop scene. Again, being the representative of a LARGE local
228:
I am obviously coming from an angle of trying to increase the presence of musicians from
Allegany County/Cumberland, Maryland on the Web, including Wiki, so I wont' deny that, but I feel almost being discriminated against b/c we're from a smaller area. Our local newspaper barely pays attention to us,
1137:
Clearly, interesting questions lurk here regarding the appropriate geographic scope for notability in music. Under the current criteria, however, Pro-Gravity and the bands mentioned above should be kept. Perhaps the criteria should be revised to more clearly indicate the appropriate geographic scope
907:
is the most important policies in determining whether an article is suitable. We need verifiable reliable sources - articles that state these bands are prominent representatives of a notable style as mentioned above, that aren't trivial mentions; we need indications that there are people writing, in
599:
I disagree; the existence of other, more trivial articles shows that certain articles are being singled out for some reason. Like the above example, the
Tristate Zoological Park. Why aren't we discussing that article's deletion? Not that I think we should; there's room enough for both (and plenty
628:
Generally, I think the notability standards are a bit overwrought and largely unnecessary. Major labels/groups/bands gain notoriety by having enough capital to promote product. This doesn’t necessarily make them notable in any meaningful sense of the word; and because a small label/group/band
549:
article's deletion, but I GUARANTEE these bands' pages will get more hits than
Archibald Sturrock. What's the harm of giving a person out there who may hear of 200 North (or Distorted Penguins, or Pro-Gravity) from being able to go to Knowledge (XXG) and find information? I, for one, think it
218:
Hey I dont' know if this is the correct way to communicate with you or not, but here it is ... I mean, I see what you're saying about Ice
Records vs. Pro-Gravity and all. But as far as noteworthiness goes, again, it's an Indpendent label with about 8 acts and 10 albums -- with 4 albums in the
506:
Local newspapers write about local bands. I've done it. When magazines, newspapers, websites, etc. write about bands from outside their local area, that indicates they're developing notability outside of their home town, and that moves them towards meeting the music guidelines.
857:, as they have documentation showing them as notable (remember that "notability" is completely different from "popularity"). Even those contesting the inclusion of these articles have admitted that the bands are notable in Maryland, or at least in Western Maryland. Also,
525:
Not that there is no notability for these acts outside their hometown, but you're basically admitting that this evidence proves that they are notable there. From what I see in the guidelines, they only require notability, not world-wide notability nor even national
777:
Also, according to the guidlines regarding notability, a band has to meet only one of the criteria, one of them being, "Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable." Since Brendan Ekstrom, the guitarist from
125:
Record label from western Maryland. No evidence of notability, no independent sources. Same author is busily creating articles on this label's affiliated acts and their albums, all of which have the same notability problems. Listing them below.
285:; neutral on the bands right now until I've got more time to look into them one by one. to Lawofone: The label needs to have been covered in multiple non-trivial reliable sources to define its notability - everything needs to be sourced to be
580:
for a steam boiler improvement, invented the steam tender, managed a major railroad for years, etc. Nonetheless, because one article exists is not a good reason for another to exist; we still need those multiple reliable sources.
498:
How are independent newspaper articles not acceptable? Are the guidelines tougher to get a band on here than, oh, anything else in Knowledge (XXG)? If there was no independent verification, then I'd agree, but they've met the
733:'s point above: You allow that the label (and, by association, its acts) are notable in Maryland; notability guidelines do not indicate what level an act/label must be notable on, only that they must be notable. So ...
881:
So, what types of sources are you actually looking for in order to call off this witch hunt? Give the editors who are currently working on these pages some real information on what you want, and we/they can provide
389:
Add them right away, as additional sources will make a difference on the opinions being expressed here. If you wait, the articles are all likely to be deleted - the sources won't do a whole lot afterwards...
813:
scene is not required, merely "of the local scene of a city." Midnight:30, and its derivatives, are the most prominent representatives of hip-hop within Allegany County and beyond, so they easily qualify.
225:
It seems as though if an artist isn't on a major record label or doesn't release a song that charts, they're going to be deleted, which (IMHO) flies in the face of what Knowledge (XXG) is about.
673:
Also, I kind of resent being tagged as a single-use account or whatever. I've been on wikipedia for three or four years now. It's a cheap attempt to render my opinion irrelevant.
660:
I think I basically agree with the above posts. Print/Web exists. Who cares if they're not big, they've met the criteria. I always side with keeping articles, not deleting them.
629:
doesn’t have the ability to buy ‘notability’ in the way that better funded labels/groups/bands do makes them no less notable. I don’t see how there isn’t room enough for all.
118:
680:
My apologies, then; your edit history under this account consists of seven edits outside of this debate, which leads to the assumption. Please remember to sign your posts.
972:
331:
on Distorted Penguins, with a lean towards a weak keep if someone turns up non-trivial independent mentions of their national touring as well as more reliable sources.
705:. The label seems to be marginally notable within the state of Maryland, but a detailed search finds very little in the way of reliable sources regarding the label
455:
This is silly. The label itself is legitimate as are the associated bands. Both print and web sources have been produced to prove this. What's the problem?
916:
are satisfied. Anyhow, this is my last opinion on the matter, unless some firm references come forward; it's up to the closing administrator to decide.
91:
86:
746:
I had a couple minutes, so I found a small handful of references on the web. There are definitely more to be found. This was a cursory search.
1113:
This is a virgin Knowledge (XXG) post/edit. I came across this page after reading an article pertaining to Pro-Gravity's most recent release:
95:
78:
874:
650:
445:
171:
865:(a band that I challenge any of you to challenge the notability of). However, I note that this doesn't really matter. According to
17:
441:
425:
1108:
854:
569:
646:
1183:
36:
750:
260:
256:
539:
Agreed. Although we're definitely starting to go around in circles here. But how can these bands not get a page when
1170:
1152:
1142:
1139:
1138:
for notability; however, this seems like a discussion that should take place at a higher level (i.e., elsewhere).
1091:
1073:
1017:
925:
895:
837:
817:
804:
737:
720:
709:
its bands. None of the acts seem to have ever charted on a major chart or done anything else that makes them pass
696:
664:
633:
604:
590:
560:
530:
516:
489:
459:
399:
384:
380:
I"ve got what I feel is the necessary references, which I'll add after voting is finished (assuming it survives).
372:
340:
302:
268:
236:
130:
57:
1129:. The link above provides yet another reliable source. Others have been furnished in previous posts. Simply put,
1182:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
551:
35:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
1032:
The fact that most of these articles are from local sources should not matter. They are independent sources.
759:
82:
196:
1121:
I don't have anything terribly new to add to this debate. The two potential bases for deletion seem to be
866:
413:
186:
870:
437:
421:
795:
250:
74:
66:
1025:
316:
176:
53:
935:
246:
161:
1116:
1051:
Article on release of CMD Represent, Vol. 1 by Pre-Gravity, including references to Distorted Penguins
201:
191:
1055:
1050:
1045:
1040:
1035:
1008:
433:
417:
254:
252:
61:
573:
714:
144:
970:
960:
921:
772:
692:
586:
546:
540:
512:
485:
395:
370:
336:
298:
139:
913:
710:
361:
320:
290:
49:
966:
572:
is an argument to avoid, generally. Especially when the article pointed to is of a person who
155:
29:
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
981:
242:
150:
992:
985:
977:
974:
846:
Some of us are not quite as familiar with WikiAcronyms, so praytell, what does CSD G11 mean?
783:
642:
258:
834:
127:
1163:
1122:
469:
409:
I'm in 3 of the bands on this label. I have no idea why someone would even dispute this.
324:
278:
212:
Here is the gist of my argument, as explained to "NawlinWiki" on that admin's talk page:
1000:
577:
1130:
1126:
909:
904:
798:, the label that currently supports their 3 Song Demo and split with Esteem, as well.
477:
473:
357:
353:
286:
282:
1149:
1088:
1070:
1014:
1004:
996:
939:
917:
892:
862:
814:
801:
787:
734:
730:
688:
661:
601:
582:
557:
527:
508:
481:
456:
391:
381:
365:
332:
294:
265:
233:
166:
764:
1066:
Announcement of Distorted Penguins show with Blues Traveler, Nine Days, and Mos Def
112:
1060:
638:
630:
1162:; what few sources there are in this article are self-publish or otherwise not
1148:
Update -- Truce II Headrush article now has references. Working on the others.
1167:
244:
713:. Most of the hits for the bands are MySpace and similar non-reliable pages.
953:
858:
791:
779:
248:
181:
1065:
476:
the claims in the article. The label itself just hasn't developed enough
1087:
At least we're fighting the good fight; when will the decision be made?
264:
These are just the first few I could track down. There are plenty more.
1041:
Mention in letter to the editor from a Cumberland native living in TX
48:. Consensus was that all articles failed to meet the requirements of
232:
Please tell me what I must do to save these articles from deletion.
1061:
DC101 reference (the band is played on the Washington, DC station)
991:
Also, Brendan Ekstrom, guitarist from 200 North, went on to join
1176:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1046:
Mention in article on Frostburg State University compilation CD
934:
Give me till Friday, and I can provide the information on
56:, which had only once received non-trivial coverage in a
108:
104:
100:
356:
sources that show that this label or related acts are
1056:
mention in letter to the editor regarding local radio
289:. The bands need to be able to meet the criteria at
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
765:Search for 200 North on this page for a review of
961:Independent review of 200 North / Esteem split CD
172:List of musical artists from Cumberland, Maryland
1186:). No further edits should be made to this page.
773:Review of 200 North/Esteem split at top of page
60:, published work independent from the subject:
1117:Newspaper feature on Pro-Gravity album release
468:None of the sources really meet the need for
8:
470:multiple, non-trivial independent references
887:Editing is greatly preferred over deletion.
861:stands even more easily due to its ties to
1109:200 North, Distorted Penguins, Pro-Gravity
976:, and Eulogy has also released albums by
760:Review of The Trend's self-titled album
352:Unless, of course, the author has some
829:. The bulk of these articles fit our
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
875:the talk page for music notability
794:from deletion (and I would assume
327:, as well as the albums for each;
277:Pro-Gravity Records as lacking in
52:. The closest to being a keep was
24:
988:, all undeniabley notable bands.
965:The band's first release was on
942:-- they'll be in the paper then.
853:The above bands fall within the
545:does? I'm in no way callign for
969:as verified by the following:
311:After looking over the bands,
1:
574:has books written about him
1203:
1171:22:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
1153:21:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
1143:20:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
1036:Announcement of final show
600:more) on Knowledge (XXG).
1092:22:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
1074:21:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
1018:20:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
926:20:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
896:18:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
838:17:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
833:criteria if you ask me.
818:17:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
805:15:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
738:17:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
721:21:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
697:20:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
665:17:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
634:16:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
605:11:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
591:02:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
561:23:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
531:20:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
517:20:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
490:16:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
460:17:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
400:18:23, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
385:17:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
373:22:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
341:16:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
303:21:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
269:18:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
237:17:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
131:16:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
1179:Please do not modify it.
32:Please do not modify it.
1140:Mrtrigonometrybedsheets
786:and is now a member of
978:Dashboard Confessional
782:later went on to join
197:Watching the World Die
867:those same guidelines
729:Again, I must recall
651:few or no other edits
446:few or no other edits
428:) 07:15, 29 July 2007
187:CMD Represent, Vol. 1
1166:. Not notable. —
855:notability guidlines
790:, this should spare
755:by Truce II Headrush
653:outside this topic.
480:to meet guidelines.
448:outside this topic.
796:Pro-Gravity Records
570:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS
75:Pro-Gravity Records
67:Pro-Gravity Records
1026:Distorted Penguins
360:as required by WP
317:Distorted Penguins
177:Distorted Penguins
54:Distorted Penguins
967:Eulogy Recordings
936:Truce II Headrush
924:
871:CharlesGillingham
695:
654:
589:
515:
488:
449:
430:
416:comment added by
398:
339:
301:
162:Truce II Headrush
1194:
1181:
1123:reliable sources
993:This Day Forward
982:This Day Forward
920:
784:This Day Forward
717:
716:Ten Pound Hammer
691:
636:
585:
511:
484:
431:
429:
410:
394:
368:
335:
297:
279:reliable sources
202:Antiform (album)
192:Billiam Rockwell
135:Also including:
116:
98:
34:
1202:
1201:
1197:
1196:
1195:
1193:
1192:
1191:
1190:
1184:deletion review
1177:
715:
411:
366:
89:
73:
70:
44:The result was
37:deletion review
30:
22:
21:
20:
12:
11:
5:
1200:
1198:
1189:
1188:
1173:
1156:
1155:
1103:
1102:
1101:
1100:
1099:
1098:
1097:
1096:
1095:
1094:
1030:
1029:
999:as documented
958:
957:
948:
947:
946:
945:
944:
943:
929:
928:
899:
898:
889:
888:
884:
883:
878:
877:
873:) going on on
850:
849:
848:
847:
841:
840:
823:
822:
821:
820:
748:
747:
743:
742:
741:
740:
724:
723:
686:
685:
684:
683:
682:
681:
675:
674:
668:
667:
655:
622:
621:
620:
619:
618:
617:
616:
615:
614:
613:
612:
611:
610:
609:
608:
607:
594:
593:
578:holds a patent
564:
563:
534:
533:
520:
519:
501:
500:
493:
492:
463:
462:
450:
404:
403:
402:
375:
346:
345:
344:
343:
306:
305:
293:for articles.
223:
222:
221:
220:
210:
209:
205:
204:
199:
194:
189:
184:
179:
174:
169:
164:
159:
153:
148:
142:
123:
122:
69:
64:
42:
41:
25:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1199:
1187:
1185:
1180:
1174:
1172:
1169:
1165:
1161:
1158:
1157:
1154:
1151:
1147:
1146:
1145:
1144:
1141:
1135:
1132:
1131:verifiability
1128:
1124:
1119:
1118:
1114:
1111:
1110:
1107:
1093:
1090:
1086:
1085:
1084:
1083:
1082:
1081:
1080:
1079:
1078:
1077:
1076:
1075:
1072:
1068:
1067:
1063:
1062:
1058:
1057:
1053:
1052:
1048:
1047:
1043:
1042:
1038:
1037:
1033:
1028:
1027:
1022:
1021:
1020:
1019:
1016:
1012:
1010:
1006:
1002:
998:
997:Circa Survive
994:
989:
987:
983:
979:
975:
973:
971:
968:
963:
962:
956:
955:
950:
949:
941:
940:The Enigmatic
937:
933:
932:
931:
930:
927:
923:
919:
915:
911:
906:
905:Verifiability
903:
902:
901:
900:
897:
894:
891:
890:
886:
885:
880:
879:
876:
872:
868:
864:
863:Circa Survive
860:
856:
852:
851:
845:
844:
843:
842:
839:
836:
832:
828:
825:
824:
819:
816:
811:
810:
809:
808:
807:
806:
803:
799:
797:
793:
789:
788:Circa Survive
785:
781:
775:
774:
770:
769:
768:
762:
761:
757:
756:
754:
745:
744:
739:
736:
732:
728:
727:
726:
725:
722:
718:
712:
708:
704:
701:
700:
699:
698:
694:
690:
679:
678:
677:
676:
672:
671:
670:
669:
666:
663:
659:
656:
652:
648:
644:
640:
635:
632:
627:
624:
623:
606:
603:
598:
597:
596:
595:
592:
588:
584:
579:
575:
571:
568:
567:
566:
565:
562:
559:
555:
554:
548:
544:
543:
538:
537:
536:
535:
532:
529:
524:
523:
522:
521:
518:
514:
510:
505:
504:
503:
502:
497:
496:
495:
494:
491:
487:
483:
479:
475:
471:
467:
466:
465:
464:
461:
458:
454:
451:
447:
443:
439:
435:
427:
423:
419:
415:
408:
405:
401:
397:
393:
388:
387:
386:
383:
379:
376:
374:
371:
369:
363:
359:
355:
351:
348:
347:
342:
338:
334:
330:
326:
322:
318:
314:
310:
309:
308:
307:
304:
300:
296:
292:
288:
284:
280:
276:
273:
272:
271:
270:
267:
262:
261:
259:
257:
255:
253:
251:
249:
247:
245:
243:
239:
238:
235:
230:
226:
217:
216:
215:
214:
213:
207:
206:
203:
200:
198:
195:
193:
190:
188:
185:
183:
180:
178:
175:
173:
170:
168:
167:The Enigmatic
165:
163:
160:
157:
154:
152:
149:
146:
143:
141:
138:
137:
136:
133:
132:
129:
120:
114:
110:
106:
102:
97:
93:
88:
84:
80:
76:
72:
71:
68:
65:
63:
62:
59:
55:
51:
47:
40:
38:
33:
27:
26:
19:
1178:
1175:
1159:
1136:
1120:
1115:
1112:
1105:
1104:
1069:
1064:
1059:
1054:
1049:
1044:
1039:
1034:
1031:
1023:
1013:
990:
964:
959:
951:
830:
826:
800:
776:
771:
766:
763:
758:
753:The Enigmaic
752:
749:
706:
702:
687:
657:
625:
552:
541:
452:
412:— Preceding
406:
377:
349:
328:
312:
274:
263:
241:Some links:
240:
231:
227:
224:
211:
145:Midnight: 30
134:
124:
45:
43:
31:
28:
995:and later,
649:) has made
526:notability.
444:) has made
319:as failing
281:and likely
208:My argument
158:(duplicate)
147:(duplicate)
140:Midnight:30
1127:notability
835:Burntsauce
751:Review of
703:Delete all
478:notability
434:Briannorth
418:Briannorth
354:verifiable
287:verifiable
283:notability
128:NawlinWiki
46:delete all
954:200 North
859:200 North
792:200 North
780:200 North
499:criteria.
182:200 North
1164:reliable
1150:Lawofone
1089:Truce m3
1071:Cdadamly
1015:Cdadamly
918:Tony Fox
914:WP:MUSIC
893:Cdadamly
815:Lawofone
802:Cdadamly
735:Lawofone
731:Cdadamly
711:WP:MUSIC
689:Tony Fox
662:Truce m3
647:contribs
602:Truce m3
583:Tony Fox
558:Lawofone
528:Cdadamly
509:Tony Fox
482:Tony Fox
457:Cdadamly
442:contribs
426:contribs
414:unsigned
392:Tony Fox
382:Lawofone
362:criteria
333:Tony Fox
321:WP:MUSIC
315:all but
295:Tony Fox
291:WP:MUSIC
266:Lawofone
234:Lawofone
156:Plan: Be
119:View log
58:reliable
50:WP:MUSIC
986:Unearth
831:CSD G11
358:notable
329:neutral
151:Plan:Be
92:protect
87:history
1160:Delete
1007:, and
984:, and
922:(arf!)
827:Delete
693:(arf!)
639:SKOOCH
631:SKOOCH
587:(arf!)
513:(arf!)
486:(arf!)
474:verify
396:(arf!)
367:Travis
350:Delete
337:(arf!)
313:delete
299:(arf!)
275:Delete
96:delete
1168:Coren
1024:Keep
952:Keep
325:WP:RS
113:views
105:watch
101:links
16:<
1125:and
1106:Keep
1009:here
1005:here
1001:here
938:and
910:WP:V
767:WtWD
658:Keep
643:talk
626:Keep
553:this
547:that
542:this
453:Keep
438:talk
422:talk
407:Keep
378:Keep
323:and
109:logs
83:talk
79:edit
1003:,
912:or
882:it.
719:•
707:and
472:to
364:. —
117:– (
1011:.
980:,
645:•
637:—
576:,
556:.
440:•
432:—
424:•
111:|
107:|
103:|
99:|
94:|
90:|
85:|
81:|
641:(
436:(
420:(
121:)
115:)
77:(
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.