561:
Sludgelord and
Encyclopaedia Metallum. It appears that the call for deletion stems from a lack of familiarity with this particular metal subculture, especially given the updated references. Furthermore, keep in mind that a record label's purpose is to release and distribute music -- so while the organization itself may get less press coverage than the bands/artists it represents, it has a significant role in content creation and audience engagement within its particular subgenre. Ripple has released hundreds of musical works over the past decade in the doom/stoner genres, working with bands around the globe. A flag to improve citations would have been more appropriate for this article than a call for deletion. See, for instance, the Knowledge pages for Nuclear Blast and Metal Blade Records.
744:, I found some interesting discussion about notability and sourcing. It appears that other users have run into similar debates. Here is an excerpt from that section, posted in 2019: "Record labels are not specifically covered with their own section in WP:MUSIC, and there is no consensus about how to do so (I attempted, once, and failed). WP:MUSIC does have language in the section on artists that gives the only real guidance about judging notability - length of operation and significance of roster, taken holistically. There are very few people actively working on record label articles - I'm one of the most active, and most of what I do is watch over a bunch of them to ward off vandalism and overly-hasty deletion, rather than write new articles or work on sourcing." That was from
1119:. That means, nothing that relies on company information or announcements or interviews, etc. Also nothing where there is "inherited" notability so the inference that they have signed notable acts only points to the notability of the act, not of the company that signed them. None of the references in the article meet the criteria and having searched I am unable to locate any references that meet the criteria. If some of the Keep !voters can produce a couple of good references that they are sure meets
52:. What an absolute mess, to be honest. There is a handful of policy-based arguments in amongst a heck of a lot of very average arguments below. I can't find a consensus at all, plus the article has changed somewhat during the debate, making it even harder. Would recommend that, if this is relisted in the near future, the nominator requests that the debate be semi-protected and then widely advertised internally (Wikiprojects etc.) to encourage good-quality contributions to the debate.
486:, keep in mind that small subcultures (such as specific metal subgenres) may have little coverage that looks relevant to an outsider looking in, but this doesn't necessarily mean they lack that coverage entirely -- it simply may require more familiarity to spot. The improvements to sourcing this article has seen since listing appear quite clearly reliable coverage.
643:. That means, nothing that relies on company information or announcements or interviews, etc. So for a record company, I want to see articles *about* the record company, not about the artists or new releases, etc. None of the references in the article meet the criteria and having searched I am unable to locate any references that meet the criteria. Topic fails GNG/
377:: "A company, corporation, organization, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." This company has not been the subject of significant coverage in any of those sources. This article should still be deleted.
1099:. A lot of the accounts posting to Keep don't appear to understand the criteria for establishing notability for companies or are quoting from other guidelines which have different standards and are not applicable for companies. Here's a summary to help. The criteria for establishing notability for companies/organizations is
748:. The debate on this Ripple article is a perfect example of how unclear guidelines for record labels results in confusion and clearer guidelines are needed. If we look at "length of operation and significance of roster, taken holistically," Ripple has a significant role in a music subculture. In the spirit of
560:
Updates to the information and references are ongoing. Re sources that are "not reliable" -- some references are from The
Obelisk has its own (uncontested) Knowledge page. Other references include Rolling Stone, Blabbermouth, Ghost Cult Magazine, and long-running underground metal sites such as The
876:
Article describes actively engaged recorded music label, publisher, distributor, and cultural entity in music genre and subgenre operating for over 10 years representing broad roster of active musicians and significant catalog of recordings. Ripple Music is clearly a long standing active entity on
889:
indicates that many artists in repertoire would meet notable criteria, whether or not they themselves are represented with
Knowledge articles or entries. There is limited discussion indicating how to assess Notability for smaller and independent record labels and music publishers as culturally
352:
While there were quality issues with the original article, Ripple Music is a notable record label in the doom metal subculture. The article has been revised to include reliable, independent references and some promotional language has been removed. View the current version:
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Trivial mentions in reliable sources are not sufficient to establish notability. A flag to improve citations doesn't apply to this article, since it hasn't been established that the company is notable in the first place. It appears that your argument boils down to the
394:: Updated references include well-known music publications such as Rolling Stone, Decibel Magazine, and Blabbermouth, as well as local mainstream news sources and popular underground publication The Obelisk. All of these are independent of the organization.
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significant. Knowledge
Notability guidelines should not unintentionally bias toward "major" international corporate entities or certain "major" institutions. Discussion appears to contain Moving Goalposts when presented with notable references by invoking
795:
fallacy: "Notability is not established by how long a thing has existed, or how far back in time a tradition may go, or how venerable the people are who are involved in it, or how yellowed the pages that once mentioned it." 'Significance of roster' is the
830:-- "Knowledge has policies and guidelines, but they are not carved in stone; their content and interpretation can evolve over time. The principles and spirit matter more than literal wording, and sometimes improving Knowledge requires making exceptions."
902:
to refute notability. These can continue to be leveraged to argumentum ad infinitum as invoked here, they would also apply to most genre or regional music organizations that exist to promote culture and artists. The page needs fixing not deletion.
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should be factored in as well. Furthermore, as some users noted, Ripple's role in an underground subculture may be harder to see from outside that subculture; Also, references from
Decibel and others focus on the label itself. As part of
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The only references listed in this article are links to the company's personal webpage/blogs/store and a link to a music festival's webpage. Cannot find references that sufficiently establish notability, therefore the article should be
537:
there have been significant updates to the page in recent days. It seems worth keeping as a few valuable new links have been added. And I can agree that yes, this is an important label in the underground rock community.
925:
rather than get hung up on circular arguments. Deleting the Ripple page does nothing to improve Wiki's music content, especially as the label's notability is being established through recent reference additions.
198:
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for your points and sharing the Discog and All Music links. Reliable secondary sources continue to be added which focus on the record label itself, including this 2020 label spotlight from
Bandcamp.
966:
Note: That's also the case for the user who flagged this page for deletion. Law15of48's account was created in late
December 2020 and most of the activity has been related to this page.
504:
The
Decibel source might constitute significant coverage in a relible source, but all of the other sources listed are either not reliable or only contain trivial mentions of the company.
752:, to improve Knowledge's record label coverage -- rather than deleting one article about a record label that has existed for over ten years and has put out many releases that meet
1066:
Re notes about age of accounts that JPxG and I made -- whether you are on Team Keep or Team Delete, "newbie" status is not supposed to be a consideration in these discussions per
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notability criteria, perhaps efforts would be better spent on developing notability criteria that is specific to record labels. (Especially as this issue has come up before.)
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702:: having a "role in an underground subculture may be harder to see from outside that subculture" does not make the company notable, nor does being a part of the
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fallacy: "An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it." 'Ripple has a clear role in music subculture' is the
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for the reasons you've stated - looks like promo created by the people involved. Many of the edits were from accounts or IPs that only edited this article. -
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original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject
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original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject
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and applies a stricter interpretation of requirements than for other topics. In short, WP:NCORP requires multiple sources (at least two) of
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and applies a stricter interpretation of requirements than for other topics. In short, WP:NCORP requires multiple sources (at least two) of
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The article does not link to this AFD only to the deletion review. If the AFD is to continue someone should fix that.
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Good points. Upon closer examination, I agree. None of these sources constitute "significant coverage" whatsoever.
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does. Saying that the page shouldn't be deleted because it and/or the company have been around for a while is the
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are only for companies that have been demonstrated to be notable in the first place, which this company has not.
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This was me (Jessie) not signed in. Added strikethrough bc I'm not trying to stuff the ballot box lol.
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I see the point about notability for an organization/company -- but in the case of a record label, the
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voted 'keep' a total of 3 times - twice as themself, and once as logged out IP address 24.45.143.92.
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does not apply to record labels, and none of this supersedes the company's lack of notability.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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The label is still active and is important for the history of stoner rock/doom metal music.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Fixed it. No telling how long it had been that way, just noticed the incongruity myself.
1115:. "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include
639:. "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include
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This is ridiculous. This is the most relevant underground record label on the planet.
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685:, this article should remain as an important label in the doom/stoner metal subculture.
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fallacy. These fallacies do not sufficiently establish the company's notability.
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780:. Please strike through one of your votes so that it doesn't get counted twice.
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per nom and
Special-T. This has been sitting here since 2010, might I add.
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This AfD was briefly closed as "keep" and made subject to a now moot DRV:
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The criteria for establishing notability for companies/organizations is
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Amen! We need to improve
Knowledge record label coverage according to
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https://daily.bandcamp.com/label-profile/ripple-music-label-profile
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Note: Krakan.silfursolin's account was created recently and their
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
881:. Ripple Music is clearly a long standing active entity on
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as subculturally notable music label. In addition to
1070:. Just pointing out that there are new accounts on
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Knowledge:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions
1047:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
453:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1241:). No further edits should be made to this page.
295:Note: This discussion has been included in the
278:Note: This discussion has been included in the
258:Note: This discussion has been included in the
280:list of California-related deletion discussions
260:list of Companies-related deletion discussions
1143:Knowledge:Deletion review/Log/2021 January 12
219:
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107:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
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297:list of Music-related deletion discussions
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1111:and (this bit is important!) containing
742:Knowledge talk:WikiProject Record Labels
635:and (this bit is important!) containing
516:. The article should still be deleted.
1109:in-depth information *on the company*
633:in-depth information *on the company*
7:
947:relate to this deletion discussion.
806:Knowledge:WikiProject Record Labels
750:Knowledge:WikiProject Record Labels
704:Knowledge:WikiProject Record Labels
683:Knowledge:WikiProject Record Labels
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787:does not apply to record labels,
783:The guidelines are not unclear.
508:: Lack of notability supercedes
92:Introduction to deletion process
974:) 16:40, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
1019:) 16:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
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1200:06:47, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
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1134:12:49, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
1091:The applicable guideline is
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913:09:16, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
867:23:28, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
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818:17:14, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
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654:21:42, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
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82:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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1074:sides of the discussion.
1231:Please do not modify it.
32:Please do not modify it.
923:Knowledge:Five Pillars
828:Knowledge:Five pillars
1113:"Independent Content"
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637:"Independent Content"
80:Articles for deletion
1105:significant coverage
629:significant coverage
738:strike double !vote
558:strike double !vote
1127:, post them here.
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994:Thank you
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1139:Comment:
1130:HighKing
1101:WP:NCORP
1097:WP:MUSIC
1095:and not
1093:WP:NCORP
1039:Relisted
1017:contribs
1005:unsigned
898:, &
887:WP:MUSIC
879:AllMusic
855:unsigned
754:WP:MUSIC
746:Chubbles
650:HighKing
645:WP:NCORP
625:WP:NCORP
445:Relisted
431:contribs
419:unsigned
160:View log
101:glossary
39:or in a
1089:Comment
1064:Comment
992:Comment
514:WP:DINC
484:WP:DINC
232:deleted
199:WP refs
187:scholar
133:protect
128:history
78:New to
785:WP:MUS
708:WP:MUS
678:WP:MUS
621:Delete
458:BD2412
331:Delete
314:Delete
240:WP:GNG
171:Google
137:delete
54:Daniel
1181:Focus
1107:with
631:with
214:JSTOR
175:books
154:views
146:watch
142:links
16:<
1218:talk
1196:talk
1123:and
1080:talk
1072:both
1053:talk
1026:talk
1013:talk
980:talk
972:talk
932:talk
909:talk
874:Keep
863:talk
836:talk
826:See
814:talk
762:talk
734:Keep
716:talk
691:talk
668:talk
608:talk
598:and
585:talk
567:talk
554:Keep
544:talk
535:Keep
522:talk
512:and
492:talk
482:and
476:Keep
427:talk
413:Keep
400:talk
383:talk
362:talk
350:Keep
339:talk
322:talk
268:talk
248:talk
238:and
234:per
207:FENS
181:news
150:logs
124:talk
120:edit
58:talk
221:TWL
158:– (
1220:)
1198:)
1145:.
1082:)
1055:)
1028:)
1015:•
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951:jp
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894:,
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