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balanced in this particular context. The article is currently too far off NPOV policy and, at least on the surface, too close to an attack page for this article to be kept, at least in its current shape and form. Please remember that politics is a controversial topic in which there are always many dissenting voices. You can't simply define half of the political spectrum as "unreliable" and the other half as "reliable". However tempting that may be, such an evaluation is outside the scope of
Knowledge. When there are conflicting views, please describe all relevant views.
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national, international sources on every world leader (Bush, Reagan, Obama, G. Washington, Boris
Johnson, etc.) talking about their dishonesty. I don't think it's possible for an article of this nature to ever be neutral, every source that is talking about his lies is biased. Keeping an article like this opens up a can of worms, Knowledge is not supposed to be biased like this.
264:. Every word in this article is negative about Donald Trump. This is the only article exclusively about someones lies, if we had an article about every lie of a politician we would have a lot more than 6 million articles on the English Knowledge. Whats next were gonna create an article about every gaffe by Joe Biden? Also, a good majority of the content is not neutral at all.
392:- Someone said, "Every word in this article is negative about Donald Trump." EVERY list of bad things someone did is negative about the subject. As to, "This is the only article exclusively about someones lies," that's because no other president has been a compulsive liar. Even Nixon never told ridiculous lies like, "I invented the expression 'prime the pump' last week."
1264:). It would be erroneous to use Knowledge's voice to make it sound as if it's just a matter of opinion whether or not, for example, the National Hurricane Center's forecast for Hurricane Dorian was that it would hit Alabama. Two things can be true at once: 1) this is not an attack page and 2) we should not present things as being subject to opinion if they are not.
1755:, it does not mean neutral articles, it just means that editors must neutrally reflect the POV of the sources proportionately, and that POV may very well be not neutral. Put another way, WP:NPOV calls for no Knowledge-editorial bias, not no source bias. Also - the sources are clear. Politicians tell untruths, but Trump tells more. He is exceptional.
1533:- can you point out anyone that reliable sources say tells falsehoods on the level of Donald Trump? Or can you find the previous person who told an unprecedented number of falsehoods in American politics? I brought seven sources above showing what academics wrote about this subject. What can you bring to the table?
1795:. That's not an attack page. Many politicans have a "Public image of" page on Knowledge. Not all of those are positive (as not everyone has a positive public image). Plus, this has been nominated twice and not deleted. Nothing has changed in that time. Going through this process is not going to be constructive.--
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It has long been a truism that politicians lie, but with the entry of Donald Trump into the U.S. political domain, the frequency, degree, and impact of lying in politics are now unprecedented Donald Trump is different. By all metrics and counting schemes, his lies are off the charts. We simply have
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This is easily notable and not an attack. If repeating your words back to you is considered an attack, then I think the issue is with what you are saying. Also, I find it odd that users are saying that how the media's reporting of the seemingly unlimited number of lies from the president is somehow
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I'm with XOR'Easter that it's baffling to think a title this boring and unspecific is too biased against Trump. The title doesn't accuse Trump of being a liar, it simply states that this article covers various instances of Trump making statements whose accuracy was covered significantly in reliable
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from articles relating to US politics. This was a snow keep only a few months ago and a snow keep earlier last year. Iamreallygoodatcheckers should never have nominated it, and by doing so, is showing clear bias. Looking at other edits, they have also been controversially removing content from the
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given that the sources cover the overall truthfulness (or lack thereof) of Trump, in a way that hasn't been done before, given the extent of this president's inaccurate statements. It's not documenting each lie in a way that mirrors the 24 hour news cycle. It's an assessment of the presidency as a
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looks more like a generic smear page. I couldn't even find any information about what
Obamagate supposedly is. Moreover, it is pretty obvious that several of the "reliable" sources have an ongoing conflict with Trump (whether that was their own choice or not) and therefore cannot be expected to be
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All presidents lie. In fact, virtually all humans lie. This observation may lead some to a cynical conclusion of moral equivalence: all politicians lie, so they are all corrupt and deserving of contempt. But it is an abdication of moral and civic responsibility to refuse to distinguish justified,
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You didn't answer my question. Anyhow, Trump was voted in because many people carefully judged that he was the more truthful candidate. So apparently you don't agree with some people on this. Many of these people will possibly hold that truth may not only be about one's level of accuracy when it
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page is a page written specifically to denounce a subject. This article may be a magnet for POV issues, but you cannot deny that the reliable sources have covered Trump's lies and other inaccuracies at length. He's in the middle of a dust up with
Twitter over them fact-checking his tweets as we
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Not only does every word violate in this article violate NPOV, the entire idea of the article violates NPOV. That can't be resolved in the talk page. I can't say that this doesn't pass GNG (it does), but it doesn't have a place on
Knowledge. I could probably find a million local, sub-national,
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politician has transcended the previous norms in such a way that the very approach of blatantly lying about basically everything has received significant coverage in reliable sources. Many politicians will lie about their achievements or their plans or their motives but before Trump, none have
560:- subject easily passes WP:GNG, and it reflects the sources. Academics have stated that Trump's falsehoods are unprecedented in American politics. Naturally, the reliable sources react negatively to that, and so do we, because WP:NPOV maintains that we dutifully reflect reliable sources.
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These are not reliable sources, they are partisan position pushers. Many of th debates are framed falsely in the light of this issue to advance a point of view that has to do with reasonable goals and not accuracy. This is an abuse of
Knowledge to create an attack article like
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When material is spunout of a biography of a public figure by consensus because that section of the article has a length that is out of proportion to the rest of the article, it is not necessarily an attack page, even if the content in question reflects negatively upon its
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White House scholars and other students of government agree there has never been a president like Donald Trump, whose volume of falsehoods, misstatements and serial exaggerations – on matters large and wincingly small – place him 'in a class by himself', as Texas A&M's
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We need to stop letting the false notions on
Kellerism control Knowledge. Knowledge is not a news paper and it should not use the biased, unbalanced, take sides methods used by newspapers. This article clearly does and is clearly meant to and is a violation of the NPOV
517:: That's because Trump himself hasn't explained what he is talking about. Not even a hint. Just that whatever it is, it was the worst political crime in the history of the world and people should be in jail for it. If he can't describe it, we can't describe it. --
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are egregious false statements that are demonstrably contrary to well-known facts. If there are no agreed upon facts, then it becomes impossible for people to make judgments about their government. Political power rather than rational discourse then becomes the
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1812:. Interesting use of statistics. The article does not attack Mr Trump - it merely documents the veracity or otherwise of a certain proportion of statements recorded as coming from him, attributed to him, or issued in his name. -
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That paper seems relevant. By the way, you misrepresented what I just wrote. I did not claim that Trump understands the broader picture, but that some people think he does. Are you able to spot the difference between these two?
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violates NPOV. It's not "Donald Trump's pathological aversion to the truth" or, contrariwise, "Donald Trump's sterling record of truthfulness". It's ... "Veracity of statements by Donald Trump". Practically yawn-inducing.
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comes across as more accusatory than balanced. The best option is to add balance to the article. If it is implausible that it can be fixed, deletion is the best option, but maybe there is hope? Note that according to
535:, which probably reflects what Trump refers to as "Obamagate". The article is written in a more encyclopedic style - which, by the way, does not mean that it's been stripped of criticism or allegations against Trump.
1586:- some people carefully judged that Trump was the more truthful candidate, and these people are at odds with the reliable sources presented. You claim that Trump understands the broader picture, no, instead he has
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instead of a discussion of the veracity of the subject's statements. The page does read like a lengthy review of examples as opposed to a review of his general truthiness. Perhaps a refactoring may be in order.
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Definitely notable enough to be worthy of its own article. The OP asked why there isn't an equivalent for other politicians - certainly, if it's notable, there should be an equivalent article for them too.
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Trump is not the first president to be at odds with the press, but the amount of lies he delivers and his aggressive attacks on and constant undermining of the legitimacy of the media, is unprecedented.
1829:. An objective encyclopedia is much more useful than a neutral encyclopedia (Sorry Larry Sanger) and trying to provide a neutral point of view to all situations is honourable but otherwise wrong see
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for the same reasons as before. This nomination offers no new policy-based reason for deletion. This is a notable topic, not because politicians lie, but because
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we should strive towards consensus in the editing. If some editors object to what they perceive as political bias, please try to take this into account somehow.
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comes to factoids, but also about one's understanding the broader picture. You thus need to define truth, and, by extension, understanding. You may start here:
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1022:. Knowledge should take a long view on such topics, with a historical perspective, because "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it."
282:- The article very clearly meets the guidelines for notability. If you have concerns about the article's quality, then you should discuss it on the talk page.
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This topic is widely covered on RS and, speaking as a non-American, represents one of the aspects of Trump's presidency that is most internationally notable.
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1646:- yes, I can spot the difference, but why does it matter for this page what voters think? This page is about Trump, here you are talking about voters.
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I found the page in question when trying to find objective facts about
Obamagate, which is redirected here, and found that I instead got what at least
742:'We've had presidents that have lied or misled the country, but we've never had a serial liar before. And that's what we're dealing with here,' said
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The very title of this article and even more so its comments are total violation of NPOV guidelines. I have never seen a more POV pushing article.
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Knowledge is an encyclopedia, and this is an encyclopedia article. Perhaps not a terribly well-organized one, but a legitimate one nevertheless.
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Larry Sanger whining that we cover Trump's very real scandals but not Obama's manufactured ones is not a basis for deleting the former.
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trivial, serious, and egregious lies. The most important lies of Donald Trump differ significantly from previous presidential lies
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secondary sources. An alternative title like "allegations of falsehoods" would make it sound far too subjective or 50/50 (see
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constantly tried to claim that people should believe him over their own eyes (e.g. with the size of his inauguration crowd).
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instead but, having browsed some sources, it's starting to look like that would be all of them – even George
Washington ("
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article's "False statements" section (that could potentially also be renamed). There seems to be a misconception about
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expected others to accept his version of reality and dismissed disagreements as partisan attacks on him or 'fake news'
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President Trump, historians and consultants in both political parties agree, appears to have taken what the writer
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871:- article is notable due to the coverage his lying has gained in the media and public throughout his presidency.
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McGranahan, Carole (May 2017). "An anthropology of lying: Trump and the political sociality of moral outrage".
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by the nominator. The topic is also very notable, or it wouldn't be mentioned in the main article either. —
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Stern, Donnel (May 9, 2019). "Constructivism in the Age of Trump: Truth, Lies, and
Knowing the Difference".
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Could you point out an article in any other encyclopedia that shows similarities to the current article?
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You can't simply define half of the political spectrum as "unreliable" and the other half as "reliable".
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We expect politicians to stretch the truth. But Trump is a whole different animal. He lies as a policy.
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I thought about closing this as speedy keep, but felt an opinion forming so decided to vote instead.
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I know this has been nominated a couple times, but it really does violate policy. This fits in with
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concerns then you should raise the specific issues on the talk page and try to build consensus.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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doesn't work in deletion discussions, and this isn't the place to address POV issues.
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close this? A third AfD with the pretty much the exact same rationale is disruptive.
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In principle you are right. In practice, however, it is used as a trivia website.
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663:"A year of unprecedented deception: Trump averaged 15 false claims a day in 2018"
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often lied about facts in ways that distorted reality to his political advantage
1456:. Knowledge is an encyclopedia, not a fact-checking service or trivia website.--
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1878:. This article is perfectly fine, all it does is describe and document some of
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once called 'the conflict between truth and politics' to an entirely new level.
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problems aren't a reason for deletion unless in extreme cases. This isn't one.
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Articles for deletion/Veracity of statements by Donald Trump (3rd nomination)
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not seen such an accomplished and effective liar before in U.S. politics.
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Reliable sources report level of non-truthfulness being unprecedented. —
1833:. Since this is the third nomination this page should be protected. -
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says it well. No policy-based argument for deletion has been advanced.
754:"All the president's lies: Media coverage of lies in the US and France"
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I couldn't even find any information about what Obamagate supposedly is
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speak. POV issues should be dealt with on the article's talk page. –
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and others make compelling arguments. No need for me to repeat them.
631:"Many Politicians Lie. But Trump Has Elevated the Art of Fabrication"
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Yes. Moreover, I confess myself a bit baffled by the claim that the
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Edit: On a related note, it is possible that the page has become a
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Donald Trump lies so often that some have wondered whether he has
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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votes I have some unique contributions. There is an article on
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as relevant through extremely wide coverage and notability. -
980:- in response to your comment, I recommend this book excerpt:
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SoWhy succinctly explained how this article does not violate
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Some context seems needed here. On a whim, I once started a
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list of United States of America-related deletion discussions
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I agree with John Pack Lambert. Although a balanced page on
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Articles for deletion/Veracity of statements by Donald Trump
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because people are now disagreeing on what the facts are.
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consistent lying has undermined enlightenment epistemology
464:(it means neutral editing to reflect the sources). Also,
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Please don't bring philosophical obfuscation into this.
1859:, and everyone agrees on what's good and what's wrong.
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1016:That reminds me of another promising source book –
499:Thanks, I did not know where to find the RSP list.
1337:This is the expanded article for the already huge
1917:list of Conservatism-related deletion discussions
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
2008:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1915:Note: This discussion has been included in the
845:Note: This discussion has been included in the
825:list of Politicians-related deletion discussions
823:Note: This discussion has been included in the
318:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Log/2020 May 28
1597:". In fact the same source concludes that his
460:- WP:NPOV does not mean neutral articles, see
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130:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
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1855:I agree. After all we have reached the
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1316:It is supportable by WP:RS. Per
957:history of White House fabulists
752:Skjeseth, Heidi Taksdal (2017).
531:I found this Knowledge article:
115:Introduction to deletion process
1783:. In addition to all the other
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1831:Criticism of Holocaust denial
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945:list of dishonest presidents
931:, thinking of paragons like
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1063:per all the other "keeps" -
308:This AfD was not correctly
105:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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1884:Ma nam is geoffrey (talk)
929:list of honest politicians
1230:allegations of falsehoods
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52:. Per discussion below.
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1709:Knowledge's narrative.
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723:(December 22, 2017).
661:(December 30, 2018).
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602:American Ethnologist
1190:It doesn't violate
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629:(August 7, 2017).
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1120:per the above. -
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2012:
2006:deletion review
1947:
1940:
1937:
1901:WP:FALSEBALANCE
1836:
1834:
1763:
1758:
1744:
1715:
1673:
1654:
1649:
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1598:
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1579:
1541:
1536:
1526:
1352:
1347:
1128:
1121:
1001:
996:
989:
984:
976:Andrew Davidson
973:
915:
910:
856:
851:
834:
829:
805:
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803:
772:
756:
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733:
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484:
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462:WP:FALSEBALANCE
453:
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331:
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293:
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197:
188:
153:
137:
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97:
94:
92:
70:
48:The result was
41:deletion review
30:
22:
21:
20:
12:
11:
5:
2022:
2020:
2011:
2010:
1992:
1991:
1974:
1952:
1945:
1928:
1927:
1911:
1910:
1894:
1873:
1872:
1871:
1857:End of history
1824:
1807:
1778:
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1724:
1711:WP:IDONTLIKEIT
1702:
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1115:
1114:
1113:
1081:
1069:the elfin dog
1058:
1038:
1037:
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955:"). See this
922:
883:
865:
864:
842:
819:
818:
802:
801:
799:
798:
781:(2): 189–196.
770:
749:
717:
712:George Edwards
687:
659:Kessler, Glenn
655:
623:
609:(2): 243–248.
588:
587:
583:
582:
581:
555:
554:
553:
552:
551:
550:
549:
548:
547:
476:are reliable.
436:on the surface
422:
405:
386:
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363:
362:
337:
324:
302:
258:
257:
194:
133:
132:
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46:
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25:
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15:
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10:
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3:
2:
2021:
2009:
2007:
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1978:
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1814:Jandalhandler
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1568:
1565:. Good luck.
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1262:WP:NOTNEUTRAL
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1198:
1193:
1189:
1188:
1187:
1183:
1179:
1174:
1172:
1168:
1164:
1160:
1159:Strong Delete
1157:
1155:
1151:
1147:
1143:
1140:
1137:
1135:
1131:
1126:
1125:
1119:
1116:
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1014:
1013:
1010:
1008:
1004:
999:
982:
977:
972:
971:
970:
966:
962:
959:for details.
958:
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837:
832:
826:
821:
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771:
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764:
763:
755:
750:
747:
745:
732:
731:
726:
722:
718:
715:
713:
699:
698:
693:
688:
685:
683:
670:
669:
664:
660:
656:
653:
651:
650:Hannah Arendt
638:
637:
632:
628:
624:
621:
616:
612:
608:
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603:
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491:
487:
482:
475:
471:
467:
463:
457:
452:
451:
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446:
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430:
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417:
413:
409:
406:
404:
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388:
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384:
380:
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372:
368:
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246:
243:
239:
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231:
228:
225:
222:
219:
216:
213:
210:
207:
203:
200:
199:Find sources:
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191:
187:
184:
178:
174:
170:
166:
161:
157:
152:
148:
144:
140:
136:
135:
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108:
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106:
104:
99:
89:
86:
84:
81:
79:
76:
68:
65:
63:
62:
59:
55:
51:
44:
42:
38:
33:
27:
26:
19:
1997:
1995:
1976:
1954:
1932:
1896:
1880:Donald Trump
1875:
1861:Narssarssuaq
1838:
1837:
1826:
1809:
1788:
1784:
1780:
1756:
1726:
1716:
1705:
1676:Narssarssuaq
1647:
1642:Narssarssuaq
1627:Narssarssuaq
1602:
1593:", then he "
1582:Narssarssuaq
1567:Narssarssuaq
1563:Epistemology
1534:
1529:Narssarssuaq
1510:Narssarssuaq
1472:Narssarssuaq
1453:
1435:Can someone
1390:
1377:
1372:
1370:
1362:
1339:Donald Trump
1334:
1313:
1291:
1272:
1267:
1265:
1247:Narssarssuaq
1239:WP:DEMOCRACY
1233:
1229:
1210:
1158:
1138:
1123:
1117:
1083:
1074:
1065:
1060:
1040:
1017:
994:
924:
889:
885:
868:
808:
790:
778:
774:
766:
760:
741:
734:. Retrieved
730:Toronto Star
728:
721:Dale, Daniel
708:
701:. Retrieved
695:
679:
674:February 20,
672:. Retrieved
666:
647:
640:. Retrieved
634:
618:
606:
600:
592:
584:
561:
557:
537:Narssarssuaq
501:Narssarssuaq
477:
473:
456:Narssarssuaq
441:Narssarssuaq
435:
429:Larry Sanger
424:
407:
398:
389:
366:
347:
339:
312:to the log (
305:
279:
259:
247:
241:
233:
226:
220:
214:
208:
198:
185:
96:
49:
47:
31:
28:
1955:Speedy Keep
1933:Speedy keep
1897:Speedy keep
1840:RuleTheWiki
1827:Speedy Keep
1789:speedy keep
1781:Speedy keep
1706:Speedy keep
1363:Speedy keep
1314:Speedy keep
1139:Speedy keep
1041:Speedy keep
933:Cincinnatus
886:Speedy keep
809:Speedy keep
558:Speedy keep
408:Speedy keep
390:Speedy keep
310:transcluded
288:Pikamander2
284:--Posted by
280:Speedy keep
224:free images
50:speedy keep
1492:XOR'easter
1216:XOR'easter
1192:WP:NOTNEWS
1146:XOR'easter
585:References
375:JohnmgKing
2002:talk page
1962:article.
1946:(blether)
1445:pingó mió
1441:Galobtter
1367:WP:ATTACK
1343:WP:ATTACK
1322:Casprings
1296:WP:ATTACK
1195:whole. –
988:". They "
899:WP:ATTACK
703:March 11,
642:March 11,
355:Hurricane
262:WP:ATTACK
37:talk page
2004:or in a
1957:and ban
1921:userdude
1905:userdude
1793:Bushisms
1759:starship
1686:userdude
1650:starship
1605:starship
1537:starship
1458:Darwinek
1373:Vanilla
1301:Muboshgu
1268:Vanilla
1197:Muboshgu
1124:Flori4nK
1088:RCraig09
997:starship
991:arbiter.
908:Regards
905:subject.
813:Reywas92
736:March 4,
564:starship
519:MelanieN
480:starship
183:View log
124:glossary
54:Bishonen
39:or in a
1797:Mpen320
1753:WP:NPOV
1727:Comment
1437:WP:SNOW
1414:wp:list
1378:Wizard
1353:Neonate
1273:Wizard
1129:T A L K
1048:Edwardx
925:Comment
714:put it.
394:Verdana
371:WP:NPOV
344:WP:NPOV
330::Online
230:WP refs
218:scholar
156:protect
151:history
101:New to
1941:Summit
1848:(talk)
1764:.paint
1717:Nihlus
1655:.paint
1610:.paint
1542:.paint
1454:Delete
1419:BrxBrx
1396:BrxBrx
1243:WP:AGF
1176:rules.
1024:Andrew
1002:.paint
961:Andrew
569:.paint
485:.paint
470:WP:RSP
425:Delete
314:step 3
294:(Talk)
202:Google
160:delete
1964:Nfitz
1938:Girth
1682:WP:RS
1348:Paleo
1211:title
1142:SoWhy
1101:this.
1044:SoWhy
941:AfD 2
937:AfD 1
757:(PDF)
245:JSTOR
206:books
190:Stats
177:views
169:watch
165:links
16:<
1985:talk
1981:DVdm
1977:Keep
1968:talk
1899:per
1888:talk
1876:Keep
1865:talk
1818:talk
1810:Keep
1801:talk
1787:and
1785:keep
1769:talk
1736:talk
1660:talk
1631:talk
1615:talk
1571:talk
1547:talk
1514:talk
1496:talk
1476:talk
1462:talk
1423:talk
1400:talk
1391:Keep
1335:Keep
1326:talk
1305:talk
1292:Keep
1251:talk
1241:and
1220:talk
1201:talk
1182:talk
1167:talk
1150:talk
1118:Keep
1107:talk
1092:talk
1084:Keep
1075:wooF
1066:Roxy
1061:Keep
1052:talk
1028:talk
1007:talk
965:talk
890:this
877:talk
869:Keep
738:2019
705:2019
676:2019
644:2019
574:talk
541:talk
523:talk
505:talk
490:talk
445:talk
416:talk
399:Bold
379:talk
367:Keep
350:Java
340:Keep
320:. —
270:talk
238:FENS
212:news
173:logs
147:talk
143:edit
58:tålk
1919:.
1835:||
1294:An
1026:🐉(
963:🐉(
916:Why
857:Why
835:Why
783:doi
611:doi
513:RE
412:X1\
298:at
252:TWL
181:– (
1987:)
1970:)
1903:.
1890:)
1867:)
1845:||
1820:)
1803:)
1738:)
1633:)
1573:)
1516:)
1498:)
1478:)
1464:)
1447:)
1425:)
1402:)
1383:💙
1369:.
1356:–
1328:)
1307:)
1278:💙
1253:)
1222:)
1203:)
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1169:)
1152:)
1109:)
1094:)
1054:)
1030:)
993:"
967:)
939:;
911:So
879:)
852:So
849:.
830:So
827:.
789:.
779:29
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765:.
759:.
740:.
727:.
707:.
694:.
678:.
665:.
646:.
633:.
617:.
607:44
605:.
543:)
525:)
507:)
447:)
418:)
381:)
342::
272:)
232:)
175:|
171:|
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163:|
158:|
154:|
149:|
145:|
56:|
1983:(
1966:(
1886:(
1863:(
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1745:@
1734:(
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1674:@
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1640:@
1629:(
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1613:(
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1584::
1580:@
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1549:)
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1531::
1527:@
1512:(
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1460:(
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1421:(
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1324:(
1320:.
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1050:(
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978::
974:@
875:(
785::
613::
576:)
572:(
539:(
521:(
503:(
492:)
488:(
458::
454:@
443:(
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414:(
396:♥
377:(
268:(
256:)
248:·
242:·
234:·
227:·
221:·
215:·
209:·
204:(
196:(
193:)
186:·
179:)
141:(
126:)
122:(
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.