Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 May 31

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this case. But I don't believe they make such a demand. Most discussions of the subject, even within Knowledge, conclude that hyphenation is overused, that it should be limited to cases where the possibility of ambiguity genuinely exists. We're talking about Knowledge article titles, mind you,, so we'd have to find a prominent applicable topic for an article with which to test this ambiguity possibility. So, try to imagine the title of an article we'd write about - let's say, American volleyball players from Africa, as distinct from African American volleyball players. AND it has to be an article which we will actually consider titling African American volleyball players, in spite of the obscure usage and likelihood of confusion. I'm game to think there might be cases where genuine ambiguity might occur, but I think it is incumbent on those advocating the change to produce valid cases for ambiguity without the hyphen. For me, for now, African American (adj) seems fine without the hyphen. BTW, I did a search of "african american baseball" in Google to test common usage, which I accept isn't a grammarian's friend, and found the following results among the first 100 hits: 54% without the hyphen, 42% with the hyphen, and 4% not applicable.

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crime has been described in the article and sources given, and the person has either been convicted or has pleaded guilty. Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual preference should not be used unless two criteria are met: The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or preference in question The subject's beliefs or sexual preferences are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life..." If someone doesn't self-identify as vegetarian, or if someone isn't notably vegetarian, then don't put them in the category

848:- In general, people need to go through specific ceremonies, such as baptism, to join a religion (such as Anglicanism). (The bishops described above also need to be recognized by the Anglican church.) In contrast, people merely need to say that they are "humanists", or they need someone else to say that they are "humanists". For the most part, it is also clear to identify a Christian through their beliefs (they believe in a monotheistic God that manifested himself as Jesus Christ), but the same is not true of humanists, as the article on 2589:: Now Lyrl is trying to delete this category; even though she was the person who recreated the NFP article when its contents were merged to FA (in 2005). She specifically stated that NFP was a Catholic concept in the new article that she created. Now it seems like this is the initial step in lumping all the methods together again. I see this as counterproductive because NFP and FA are two separate concepts. NFP is based in a specific religious tradition. FA is entirely secular and used for many different reasons. Please view 2660:(after a grand total of about 48 hours). I think that this is a lousy thing to do. The last thing I said on that page was "What do you want to see happen here"? Lyrl didn't answer that question AT ALL, they just nominated this for deletion. I am having a really hard time with this because I have made direct efforts to figure out what Lyrl wants to see happen so we can all come to an agreement. a much more community-friendly response would have been to try to 898:, to illustrate that there is a ginormous theological diversity within Christianity, and plenty of its components do not acknowledge each other as Christians. Dr. Submillimeter is wrong: determining whether someone is Christian is far from straightforward, but skirt around the irresolvable and highly POV definitional problems by accepting self-definition. All I ask is that we do the same for the humanists, and accept someone's self-description as a humanist. -- 4732:. If this were a valid subgenre of rap, I would be strongly tempted to argue keep, but it turns out that "underground" in this context means "self-published". Since being self-published is usually a fast route to non-notability, I think it's going to be quite a while before the parent cat gets over-populated enough to need subcategories. (For that matter, if I were a deletionist, I'd probably be sorting through the parent category even now.) 4517:, no opinion on renaming. Given the history of racial segregation in the United States, African-American ethnicity (hyphenated or not) is a defining attribute of African Americans, and it remains relevant to many aspects of the careers of African-American people. There may be some particular sporting or other categories where African-Ameriacn ethnicity is not relevant, but any such categories should be discussed on a case-by-case basis. -- 4579:, as nominator, I was expecting a lot of people to prefer the un-hyphentated variant. I agree that this is now acceptable, but my original nomination was for the sake of clarity and consistency, as well as the grammatical point, which seems to have been overlooked. The case of "African American footballers" being ambiguous, and therefore benefiting from hyphenation to disambiguate, is a strong argument for all using the hyphen, for 4549:- the history of, and ongoing prejudice and discrimination against, LGBT people and the relevance of their LGBT identities to their lives and careers was not deemed sufficient to save several similar LGBT categories recently. Not that I want to play a round of the "my oppression is worse than their oppression" game, but accepting prejudice against one group as reason for keeping categories while rejecting it for others has a whiff of 4453:. The NAACP doesn't use the hyphen; the Oxford African American Studies Center doesn't use it; the Library of Congress doesn't use it in their subject headings; the British Library doesn't use it in theirs. The OED has no opinion. I have no opinion about which categories should be merged or deleted, but whichever we keep, I don't think we need to hyphenate any form of "African American". 4892:. Next will be categories for Advanced course alumni, and for the Air Force, Squadron Officer School alumni. Is every army officer an alumni or this school? No. Lieutenants and Captains are not, and neither are enlisted. But this is definitely over-categorization. We could also have a category for army officers from Kentucky, or blonde-haired generals, but we don't need to overdo it. 4884:- Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. This is an almost pointless category. This is a U.S. Army school, but half the people in the category are former South Vietnamese officers. Anyone above the rank of major in the U.S. Army is going to have attended this school, either as a resident or by correspondence - it's mandatory. It's one step short of having 964:

would have absolutely nothing against writing in the article "Mr. So-and-so described himself as a Humanist and lived by humanist philosophies all his life" or something like that if it can be clearly proven that this Mr. So-and-so did describe himself as exactly that, but maybe the category is unhelpful. On the other hand, we have

4227:. The fact that Latin America may or may not be a geographically-defined region has nothing to do with it. People used regularly to write Latin-American; now they don't. Likewise with African American. And we're not talking about "colloquial" usage. We're talking about usage. See for instance the eminently uncolloquial 939:

the nominator make clear what his intention is? The main difficulty is with the keep votes where I am not clear whether people are proposing keeping all of them and with some deletion votes where it is not clear whether they are supporting deleting all or just some of the categories. I would support deleting

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Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for the category must be made clear in the article text. The article must state the facts that result in the use of the category tag and these facts must be sourced. For example, Category:Criminals should only be added when the notable

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I agree that standardization needs to occur, but I would simplify rather than complicate. Churchill thought hyphens were the bane of our existence, and I tend to agree. I believe the supposed rules of hyphenation of compound adjectives would go too far, if they indeed demanded the use of a hyphen in

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I am undecided about whether we should keep this category or not, but I can clearly see that it can be quite difficult to both define "Humanism" and define who exactly is a humanist. Making it particularly hard to define is that Humanism is generally not considered a religion, rather a philosophy. I

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I have to say, having looked through the contents of these various subcategories, that some of them make more sense than others - people listed as being Dutch, German or Swedish humanists to seem like actual humanists, but the American and British subcategories, for example, appear more problematic.

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to please explain what you want. You refuse to answer, then 48 hours later you announce that the discussion has "become inactive" and so you're nominating this category for deletion. The ball was in your court, Lyrl! I had made my views clear and had asked you to please clarify yours so we could

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is being proposed for discussion, although I suppose it would have to be if all the daughter categories are removed. Then I see reference to deleting the other daughter categories, but they are not really mentioned in the nomination, except that the nom says he is willing to keep two of them. Could

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is a geographically-defined region, so does not require hyphenation when used as an adjective. Having consistency is key, and so is eliminating ambiguity. Other cats exist with a hyphen, and as this is the grammatically usage, even if not necessarily colloquial, I suggest that is the best way to

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Actually, accepted usage does make it correct. An encyclopedia is a record of fact, as you say, not a determination of fact. It reflects the world, rather than shaping it. On that basis, and agreeing that consistency is desirable where possible (while recognizing that the world is not always

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And given the prejudices in the US, Latinos, Jews, Irish, Asians, all foreign-born, etc. should all be accorded the same deference? And given the prejudcies in Europe, including wholesale slaughter, presumably all Jewish and Roma categories - even the dreaded figure skaters and mathematicians

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this article was created 3 days ago, without consensus, during a content dispute. I agree with Johnbod that the content dispute should keep going until we reach a consensus. We shouldn't create new categories before that point is reached. Unfortunately, that is exactly what happened with this

866:, we only use the New Testament; we take no stance on the question of Jesus's parentage (but reckon he was a right good dude), and beyond that encourage a diversity of views among our members. The other churches mostly refuse to call us Christian; will wikipedia categorise us as Christians? -- 4167:

Whatever the result of the upmerge suggestions, I'd argue that "African American" is very seldom hyphenated, even when the phrase is used as an adjective. Though it may once have been strictly grammatically correct to emply the hyphen, usage is changing, it is now as you say (and Bartelby

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it should not. I.E. compare "I am an African American" and "I am an African-American politician". Although it is acceptable to omit the hyphen, there is currently a mixture of usages in categories on Knowledge. I therefore propose to make the following multiple category re-namings for

4949:? It is not clear from the category name what country this college is associated with, so I see a strong potential for confusion here. Perhaps "Non-US alumni of..." would be better? I'm not entirely sure. But please, keep in mind the international audience for Knowledge. 2577:, but this didn't fly. I tried coming up with many names for a possible category that would appropriately group all the FA, NFP and Rhythm methods together, but no one could agree on anything. So then I created the NFP and FA categories, which differentiate the two concepts. 665:- Does the nominator also intend to nominate most of this category's subcategories for deletion? If so, then I suggest that the nominator list the subcategories in this nomination and tag the subcategories appropriately. (I will vote to delete if the nominator does this.) 2540:

that signify the same. The term "Natural family planning" is also used to refer to generalized use of FA methods, but the Catholic groups generally stick to the term NFP. The other main difference between NFP and FA is that NFP as practiced by Catholics never involves

4487:. I urge Pat to remember that in Churchill's day, foolish prescriptive rules of grammar were far more widespread than they are today. I think the backlash against some of those rules is in danger of going too far, but I do not believe that this is such a case. I 4495:

as one case where the danger of ambiguity is actually quite high, but not, IMO, so high as to override the need for consistency. As for the question of deletion: I have opinions, but I believe this nomination is too broad for a proper discussion, therefore I say

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academics, artists, classical composers, engineers, governors, inventors, Medal of Honor recipients, mobsters, philosophers, professional wrestlers, religious leaders and rappers to the corresponding "American foos" parent category. This is overcategorization by

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grouping philosophies. Humanism does not appear to be defined in a rigorous way, and so it may be difficult to determine whether or not people belong in this category. Because the inclusion criteria are vague, I recommend deletion. (I also recommend deleting

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states that it is "a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—particularly rationality". The key point is that it is a

1428:, recently deleted at AfD. No doubt they all said it was better dealt with by a category. If the family article was still there, I would support the nom; as it is it is actually too difficult to find the links, in the Robert Crumb article anyway. The 822:, who are at opposite poles on the spectrum. It would be a breach of wikipedia's neutrality principles to insist on a greater homogeneity amongst humanists than we require in defining Christians. The test should be the same in each case: do we have 2507:

starting in the mid-1800s. The Rhythm Method involves estimating the date of ovulation based on the length of past menstrual cycles; it does not involve detection of bodily signals, and is considered obsolete by many fertility awareness teachers.

3295:. The articles are relavent to each other since they are all about the show. Some characters of the show have articles and some do not. It is likely that articles about more characters will be made so it is likely that the category will expand. 1499:; I didn't investigate further, I'm afraid (I felt I'd spent long enough on Crumbology), & from comment below, it seems I may have got the "tense" wrong. As I said above, if there was an article, this category could go. 852:

itself indicates that the term may be applied to people with a broad range of beliefs. Hence, determining whether someone is Christian or Anglican is straightforward, but determining whether someone is a humanist is not.

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the French , Italian and German categories consist of such people - at some point they have been wrongly mixed in with a religious Humanist scheme. I would have corrected this if we had not this CfD going on.

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I appreciate what has been said so far in the discussion and as I've said, I wouldn't mind if we kept the category as a whole, but with more stringent parameters than currently. As I understand it, this is a

4967: 4831: 988:, since humanism in all its forms was so integral to the entire zeitgeist of the Renaissance and Enlightenment (and those categories are probably a bit easier to define anyway.) Anyway, random musing over, 5401:(which I personally would *not* recommend deleting, it's a perfectly valid concept even if it is a little vague) having "Humanists by nationality" is as good a way as any to organize the sub-categories. 3562:- a number of categories named for authors (and actors, musicians, etc.) have been deleted. It's an ongoing process as people find and nominate them, and the existence of other similar categories is not 2437:? NFP has religious connotations, and the methods described in the category do not necessarily require religious observation and abstinence. I believe this category is unnecessary, and I also think that 728:, as I pointed out at the Vegetarian CfD, we have guidelines for belief system categories. The individual has to verifiable identify with the classification, and that identification has to be notable: 4537:

categories - should be kept by the same logic. Isn't it time to come to grips that categorization by all race, ethnicity, and religion is inherently POV, degrading, and ultimately not encyclopedic.

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Category is basically redundant with the FA category. I think there is a big difference between the generically used term "fertility awareness" and the more specific "Fertility Awareness Method" of

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existed, containing all the FA methods. I saw this as strikingly inaccurate and slanted towards NFP, because many users do not engage in periodic abstinence. I started moving the methods to

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humanists (not in the modern political sense which is just an empty word). Delete all non-renamed categories w/o mercy. The current German subcat looks OK, OTOH the American subcat is farce.

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and rebranding them as "fertility awareness" is not right. The term NFP was used first, and is still used by the majority of people using these methods in conjunction with Catholicism.

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per nom as a non-defining attribute of US army officers; but consider creating a category for alumni of the Command and General Staff College who serve in armed forces outside the US. --

397: 4171:) at best optional, and the predominant trend is to omit hyphens in this instance. (Cf. also "Latin American" where a hyphen is nowadays hardly ever used for the adjectival form.) -- 393: 3632: 3311:- the articles about the show can easily be linked to each other through wikilinks within the articles. If new articles about characters are written, then they should be placed in 1136:- Sorry, I missed the suggested rename part of your comment. Maybe using "Renaissance humanists" for all categories would be better, but I feel ambivalent about the proposal. 3940: 3936: 2814: 2193: 401: 1958: 1278: 629: 42: 37: 1256:

description rightly says the category should not be used for Renaissance humanists, but at some point they have been added as a sub-category, which also needs correcting.

4030: 5589: 2429:. It is confusing, and there has yet to be a solid consensus on what do exactly name the categories. Should we simply keep all the articles in the less specific parent 976:

can be pretty broad and hard-to-define as well (especially Unitarian Universalism.) So, I'm not sure what to do. Whatever is decided about this category, however, I am

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to stop it filling up with everyone called Crumb. I'd prefer it to be replaced with an article and/or a template, and would support deletion if either are created. --

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I created this category for easy navigation between articles about members of the artist family Crumb. There is a proposal to merge several of these articles into a

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No one, including me, seems to have noticed so far the rather important point that the French, German, Italian, and Dutch categories are almost entirely composed of

2296:), there does seem to be consensus that "fertility awareness" is a good category. There does not seem to be consensus for "Natural family planning" as a category. 4434: 4066: 4062: 1818:. I saw no article about "Greater Syracuse", so a category named as such doesn't make much sense. Any articles for places outside the city should already be in 2949:- The editor who created the cat apparently meant "African American" and beatboxers from Africa are unknown at this moment (although some undoubtedly do exist). 2728:- Johnbod, I would be interested to hear more of your reasoning on "natural family planning" being a reasonable sub-cat of "Theology of the Body". Would making 5581: 4438: 4075: 4071: 3877: 3733: 4048: 4044: 1252:

The easiest thing might be if the nominator were to remove the Renaissance categories from the nomination, & another renaming one is done (I can do). The

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should go; its scope is so narrow as to be almost useless. Also, the reason Lyrl gave for nominating this for deletion is that the discussion "stagnated" at

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You didn't actually found any such church, and until you do, Dr. Submillimeter's argument continues to hold more weight, as it deals with existing realities.

2434: 1409:- as is the case with so many family categories, the material here is easily interlinked through the text. There is no need for the category to navigate it. 1268:

That sounds like a very sensible proposal, but I'm not quie certain how to proceed. Do make those changes, and I'll be sure to support the revised proposal.

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by grouping the actual birth control methods together. There wasn't a category for the methods which do not involve chemicals or devices, so I created

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is poorly named and should be merged with the FA category. We don't need 3 subcategories to classify less than a dozen of similarly related articles.-

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that has failed to reach consensus. While there is ongoing disagreement about including two specific articles in the "fertility awareness" category (

4933:- new choice below/: or similar, and remove the Americans. This is a useful category for the foreigners but, as nom explains, not for the locals. 4441:

as non-defining; is a city or county with 50.0001% African-American population that different than one with 49.9999%? Hyphenate the others per nom.

4021: 3985: 3083:- after moving all the episode articles to the subcat, the remaining material (show article and subcat) don't require the category for navigation. 21: 1078:

once they discover the "humanists by nationality" category tree. The same can be said about the other categories for more contemporary people.

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Two minutes ago I founded the Church of BHG, which already has 100,000 members. We call ourselves Christian on our website, we don't follow the

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article itself states that the term basically refers to Broome County. Most of the articles in this category are already there, so a merge to

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should not be involved in this, as the doctor suggests. Neither is a religious category; they are about Humanists as important figures in the

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per nom. A category is not needed to link those 4 articles; a "see also" section on each page would be a perfectly adequate replacement.. --

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instead? Because as long as that category exists, it's utterly ridiculous to suggest deleting this one. (I'd probably recommend keeping

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Of course I didn't, but the point is still clear, and the tenets of my hypothetical new religion are deliberately similar to those of the

5109: 5054: 4363: 3823: 3819: 3548:, surely the general rule allows for categories that have subcats, as this one does? At any rate, there are over a hundred categories in 4423: 4026: 3886: 3859: 3814: 3810: 3796: 3751: 3679: 17: 4846: 4885: 4399: 4395: 3954: 3945: 1819: 5080: 4253:

That doesn't make it correct. Or unambiguous. Or consistent. An encyclopedia should be an unambiguous and correct record of fact.

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we should decide on whether to delete this category. If the intention is to group them all together, then we need to agree on a

1706: 969: 573:. I would also be open to keeping the category set for all self-professed humanists, but many of these individuals are not that. 5071: 5050: 5022: 4492: 4351: 3769: 3765: 2617:. I don't see that this will be easy because we already tried and failed to find a name that would not do any of the following: 1953: 4674: 4289: 4285: 4130:

baseball players, basketball players, boxers, football players, soccer players, tennis players and track and field athletes to

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while discussion is ongoing or if no consensus is reached. Regarding the Billings and Creighton articles, they are already in

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Belief systems are commonly heterogeneous, and the same diversity issues apply just as much to to religions. A liberal such as

4419: 4411: 4017: 3981: 1905: 1815: 5478: 4301: 4244: 4180: 3549: 3459: 2917:, erroneously created by non-native English speaker. Had been nominated for speedy, but suggest CfD instead. See talk page. 1545:

article, in which case, this category would become superfluous. However, I suggest this category be kept for the time being.

1176: 1004: 985: 783: 566: 4720:- I think the person who originally created the category had in mind African American rappers rather than ones from Africa. 4682: 4415: 4387: 4131: 3990: 3900: 947:

and its other sub-categories. My reason is that the historic categories have clearer consensus whether someone fits in. The

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rather than a deletion vote, so I hope no one feels I've tried his patience or violated WP:POINT by making this nomination.

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For context, the "fertility awareness" and "natural family planning" categories were created out of a renaming dispute at

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changed - see below. Having just tried, I found this took about 5 minutes - too long. There seems to have been an article

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deletion either; I'd be strongly in favor of such an article as the preferred manner of detailing family relationships.

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make Rhythm sound like a fertility awareness method (i.e. "Category:Fertility observation/charting/tracking/detection"

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recreation. Category also happens to be incorrectly capitalized and incorrectly described (a category is not a list).

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self-identified as humanists, but it is just as defining an attribute as someone's religion or professed atheism. --

1277:

Ok, I've struck-through the Dutch, German, French and Italian categories at the top of here, & set up a new nom

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self-identified as humanists, but it is just as defining an attribute as someone's religion or professed atheism. --

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use of methods which track fertility, not in the context of Catholicism. FA methods include charting the shift in

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in line with similar categories. All the articles are about individuals (but not all of them are about monarchs).

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In the meantime the NFP category is serving a useful purpose and I see no reason to get rid of it. If anything,

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