Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 June 1

1506:- in earlier eras "graduation" had a different meaning from now. Even in the modern era it's often very difficult to tell whether or not someone "graduated" (and "I didn't graduate" can mean anything from not taking out the formal degree to just not bothering to attend the ceremony). Plus there are many institutions that do courses that don't lead to awards (particular vocational but also short courses of interest), whilst some institutions have other awards for which the term "graduation" is never applied - in my own case I took courses at one institution that could be put towards an award, although many didn't, for which the term "graduation" is never used - am I a "graduate" of that insititution or not? (I am, however, definitely an alumnus.) 3738:- There is a great muddle of churches and denominations (mostly very small) which have broken away from the Anglican / Episcopalian Church over various issues in the past (say) 150 years. There may be some merit in having a category covering all these denominations, and of a sinlge category for their primates, but I doubt there is much point in having a subcategory with one or two items in it for each denomination. However, I do not think there is a means of providing additioanl information on them respectively in category lists. Nevertheless, I am not sure that the title works right. 3590:(Now sorted out) Since the continuing Anglican Movement seems to generate new splits like a cell under a microscope, I could see a useful role for a category for "Heads of Anglican Churches separated from the Anglican Communion", especially as the Churches categories themselves are currently so useless at making this distinction - which as in the nearby Catholic discussion, I think is the most important and informative. This could round up various other groups not included in this one. But I admit my resolve is weakening. 2461:. Free trade has been a dominant economic principle in developed nations for over a century, and even episodes of protectionism (such as in the 1930s) are best viewed as exceptions to the general principle shared even by the protectionists. For the last hundred years or more, the debate is better viewed as being about the extent to which is acceptable to regulate the market; a crude division into proponents and advocates of free trade creates an artificial division in a much more complex series of debates. -- 1345:-- usually used of a man in the sing. but often of men and women in the plural." That last bit tells me we can use alumni to define all students. Failing that, we have to change all to "alumni and alumnae," which is clunky, or to "students" or the probably better "attendees." (Not "graduates," though.) I also follow the statements below about certain institutions having some male attendees, and think that suggests this would be a maintenance problem.-- 3517:. This is another illustration of the conceptual problems inherent in attaching a "primate" label to so may heads of a national or regional church across the diverse strands of Christianity. The term "primate" is just one of the terms which may be used to describe such religious leaders, and in this case we have the further complication of different sorts of breakaway Anglican group being lumped together. As well trying to deter 2057:, etc., categories in it as subcategories, and has itself as a subcat!), and is being misused (the only use of it so far has been to redundantly overcat articles that are already in a more specific country category; I've reverted all of that). If there is some compelling reason to keep it, then alternatively it should be cleaned up to not be a loop and to contain the Eur. country categories that apply, and have a 2990:

the church, who had no common distinguishing title. In this case, where the category you say makes this one redundant contains essentially 3 different churches, and the titles vary, I can't see what the actual situation is from the articles, & you have not demonstrated that you can. Plenty of other Primate categories remain. It is almost never used as a title - that argument cuts no ice with me.

1027:- some film series categories have been deleted in the recent past and there is some sentiment against them, for instance categories for the Stuart Little and Charlotte's Web franchises, the Scary Movie franchise and the Poltergeist films have been deleted. Number of articles in a category or films in a film series isn't a good indicator of whether a category should exist. 3892:- This was one of the first categories, when the feature was brand new. The first categorization task I gave myself had to do with chemicals and chemistry. We didn't have much in the was of planning back then, everything was done ad-hoc. If since then a more structured hierarchy has been developed, I don't have a problem with the cat being renamed to fit the standard. 3233:- Three of the people could be called "Major Archbishops of Kiev" or a variant of that name. The fourth person, however, held a similar position but was called a "Metropolitan Archbishop"; the title "Major Archbishop" was not created until after his death. Maybe it would be appropriate to split these people into a couple of archbishop categories? 3264:- To the average reader, differentiating between titles and functions is very difficult, especially when specific functions are associated with specific titles. Having two categories trees (one for functions and one for titles) is not really useful; it will just lead to a lot of confusion (and a lot of silly category names, such as 2053:: Created by a noob, this serves no purpose (all people who could be categorized in here are categorized in their actual country instead, and this parent glomming category isn't particularly useful), is largely contraindicated by precedent (see virtually any "...by country" supercat); is malformed (does not actually have the 1613:- this is ultimately a matter of Latin grammar. "Alumni" is a male form and would be the correct Lation form for a group of men and women. "Alumnae" is potentially a female form, and if its use is well-attested (of which I am no judge), it would be unobjectionable to amend the categories as suggested. 2565:

might serve a useful purpose, by noting promiment advocates of free trade from particular eras, but a category will include all proponents of free trade, which currently includes just about all major politicians in Europe and North America. That's not a useful category, because advocacy of free trade

1562:

it appears that some (perhaps many, even all) of these are co-ed to some extent. Even were all female, consistency seems a better plan than monitoring which colleges go co-ed. Another point: if a female graduate changes sexes, he becomes an alumnus of the institution. Are we 100% sure that no-one has

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exist, but not exactly recently. It seems to me that there is a case for keeping track of pretenders to the thrones of recently-overthrown monarchies, but 2,000 years on is pushing the relevance factor a bit, particular when (as IZAK points out) there is no meaningful concept of an authorised claim

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at first, and I can understand why the label "Pre-Reformation" applied to him is confusing (although the label is for the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury and not the actual person). Maybe these categories need to be deleted simply because they are too confusing and somewhat esoteric. Does

2959:

This is a tangle - the Patriarchs cat contains people from Early medieval Kievan Rus, a communist-inspired church, and the modern post-independence one. But it is a sub-cat of the Primates category, which seems odd. Primate is a role or function, which may or may not be a title. I don't think either

1505:

But "alumni" is the mixed gender plural - I don't see where this "attendees of co-ed schools aren't listed as 'alumni/alumnae of foo'" comes from. The point is that for female only institutions "alumni" is wrong because the group by definition contains no males. "Graduates of foo" is a complete mess

3750:

These ARE the cats for those who serve as Primates/Presiding Bishops of their respective churches. As said above, it is function even if not the title used (though knowing Anglicanism generally, the title Primate would not be refused). There should also be cats for Bishops of these denominations,

2989:

Comment: I was aware of the "pastorwayne problem" from these pages, & don't support a separate Primate category when the Primate is always, eg Archbishop of Cape Town. That doesn't mean there should be no primate categories - The Ukrainian Catholic one below seems useful, as there were Heads of

752:

Comment - neither sanity nor the continuing existence of the throne in question are necessary criteria for Pretenders - if anything the reverse. If the only member loses his AfD, then that is an end to it. Otherwise the category is not OR, as it reflects the article. Unless Izak knows something we

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to either "game show hosts" or "reality show hosts" (don't care which), I disagree that "reality shows" are different from game shows, but they are at least a distinct subgenre, so I have no objection to making a separate category. But I do object to creating hosts-by-show categories, as that is

3042:. The fact it is all so confusing is an argument for the category (once made coherent) in my book, not against it. It could be renamed to "Heads of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church", but I am now clearer in favouring a keep. But the Patriarchs should not be a sub-cat of this, I think. 3301:

I would agree with that, but as you have explained above, this is not a case where they did all have the same distinguishing title. Also it is not clear if a Major Archbishop/Metropolitan would be ex officio Head of the Church. So keeping it as is,or renaming to "Heads of the ..." seems better.

790:

in Hebrew which means "annointed" because when a king was inducted he was first annointed with oil which was poured on his head, usually by a prophet. No one person has any credibilty in this department and if any Jew goes too far in making such open claims he is deemed to be a total lunatic and

2793:

Yes, I removed the category, which was my screw-up - never nominated a category for deletion before. My humblest apologies. The navigation template for the Order of the Stick is more than enough to provide any links required to move directly to the character pages without having to navigate

3010:

shows that the history of this church is too complicated to allow a single category to accommodate all the people who might have claimed the title of "Primate of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church". I think that this category illustrates rather well one of the dangers of the whole

1600:

per past discussions. Because "alumni" is used both for mixed gender and male-only former students, the existence of any "alumnae" categories implies that existing "alumni" categories are male-only, and I do not care to see a forest of "Alumnae and alumni" categories rise up down the

3062:), I removed the person from the primate category and put him in the metropolitans/patriarchs category. The other two people in this category are also in the metropolitans/patriarchs category and could technically be removed from this category, leaving just the subcategory. 1472:

The parent category is "Alumni" because it contains both sexes; therefore the sub-categories should be similarly named. Also, some of the categories have turned out to not be single-sexed. I do, however, still think that in the female-only categories, "Alumni" is plain wrong.

2685:

An "Order of the Stick" category has already been deleted, as the presence of significant interlinking within the articles and a template were considered sufficient. If the overall category was considered to be unnecessary, then a sub-category must be equally unnecessary.

3763:- I would like to see multiple links to external websites that show that these people should be grouped together under the heading "Continuing Anglicanism" and that they are primarily called "primates". Otherwise, I still recommend that this category should be deleted. 2308:

I wonder if these could be speedied as tests? In any case, if they are moved to an article and blanked, I think a speedy would be reasonable since it is not removing information. But would this leave GFDL issues? Maybe we need a discussion on the talk page.

838:

I suggested deleting the "Line of succession" partly due to the fact I haven't seen any claim even on Dayan's part to be the king. He is probably a descendant (as are hundreds more), but that doesn't mean he claims to be king (unless I missed something).

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category with them, especially since the categories exist serve that precise reason: to categorize. They're here to keep things organized, not to create a mish-mash of every random facet in the series. There's also absolutely no reason to clutter up the

3565:, were established more than a century before the Continuing Anglican Movement. Others appear to be similar but not directly related denominations. Since this category falsely implies that the various denominations are related, it should be deleted. 5237:

I have no objection to making a new reality TV hosts/presenters category and placing it as a subcat of the game show hosts cat. I don't agree with a show-specific category for the same reason we don't have other performer by series categories.

875:- the category concerns claimants to the throne of David, or perhaps to the northern kingdom after the separation of Judah. Any such claim is inherently unverifiable. Some kind of natability is needed before we can have such a category. 2738:

should be deleted. For example, we frequently delete eponymous categories named after television shows, but we keep their subcategories for episodes and characters. In this case, the characters subcategory appears to be a valid part of

3640:, which refers to the modern-day UK bishoprics that were formed by Protestant churches after the reformation. While the differences are worth discussing in an article, I wonder whether these categories themselves are really needed. 3216:

I'm no expert, but the articles (& some of the external links) use "Head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church". Some have been Cardinals, but not all. Likewise "Metropolitans" as far as I can see. I would support a rename to

2754:

FYI I reverted and repopulated the category that Tailkinker prematurely depopulated. Don't depopulate a category while it's still active. (Obviously you can depopulate a category that is deleted, but this one hasn't been deleted.)

3015:, that the concept of primate is a bit of a movable feast. In the case of the churches in the Soviet bloc, I think that it might be better to have one general category of primates, with article(s) explaining the complex history. -- 3037:

The category has now been contracted (by ??) to just 2 members - did it not have more before?- who do seem to represent the first 2 Heads of the UAOC, as I am learning to call it. After that the name of the church changes to

3751:

too. "Continuing Anglicanism" seems to be applied to these different churches more from outside, not necessarily from within. Even those denom.'s which preceeded this wording are still thought to be part of this "movement."

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has a Primus (of which the plural should really be Primi), but they are a Low-Church secession, and the Primus is elected annually. (Also, these are several different secessions; they should not be lumped as they are.)

2913: 341:(which itself needs renaming to remove the abbreviation, but I digress). From the nature of the nomination, I suspect the nominator may for some reason think that New Zealand is one of the United States's 50 states! 3635:

makes some sense. The term "pre-reformation" refers to the modern-day UK bishoprics that were formed before the Reformation and that were later incorporated into various Protestant churches (as opposed to

3265: 2904: 3452:- However, with one exception, these people are generally not referred to as primates. However, they are all referred to as bishops (including the one person who is also referred to as a primate). 3187:

There are many bishops, but only one "head of the church" at a time, which is the office these people have held successively. The term Primate may not be the usual one for them, but they qualify.

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lineage that reaches back to King David in order to qualify them for the re-establishment of the Jewish monarchy which is what the Jewish Messiah is -- THE Jewish king, and that's why there is the

1343:

has this on alumni: "Main Entry: alum·nus, Inflected Form(s): plural alum·ni, 1 : one that has attended or has graduated from a particular school, college, or university <a Harvard alumnus: -->

3175:, and all the people in the primates category are also in the bishops category. The title "bishop" is used to refer to these people, not "primate". The category should be deleted accordingly. 120:- I'm not seeing the point of maintaining a separate "universe" category. A lot of the stuff in the universe category is already categorized in the parent. Merging will simplify the structure. 4987:

I'm Australian, and bookshops is correct here. Until I removed it in anticipation of it becoming redundant, the category had an introductory comment to that effect by a user from Perth.

1489:

as per Mike Selinker. Also, categories of graduates of co-ed schools are referred to as Alumni of foo, not Alumni/alumnae of foo. Since those categories are referring to both the men

3326:

or rename. Point is that the title of these people changed, some of them were called Metropolitan, some Cardinal and some Patriarch. There is clearly some sense to have Metropolitan

2980:). I really think that it would be more appropriate to delete the "primate" categories when the term is not in use and when the categories are redundant with existing categories. 2552:

is easily repaired. Several of those listed were prominent proponents of free trade at a time when this was a controversial issue. The list accordingly serves a useful purpose.

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per BrownHairedGirl. (However, whatever happens, the phrase "from around the world" is totally unnecessary in this context.) I also think there should be a separate category for

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that all video game-related navboxes went through just to get the bare minimum included in the templates? This was the compromise.) Unless you're suggesting that someone creates

5138: 3858:. This rename will also bring categorization of biochem articles on English WP in line with WP in several other languages, and allow a much-needed clearout of the overloaded 3724: 1892: 1057: 42: 37: 770:, very different to what Judaism says about its own past and future kings, and there is no comparison with Judaism's history, where the Jewish king is the equivalant of the 807:

non-notable, unverifiable, so that even if the article containing this pretender to the throne is kept, we shouldn't be categorizing him according to his singular claims. -

5251:

That's OK by me, tho I don't think that reality TV should be a subset of game shows; do you have any preferences on the name of a reality TV hosts/presenters category? --

1737:

as overcategorisation per nom. Knowledge is not an advertising service, so we don't need to separately categorise the commercial spin-offs of every film or TV series. --

1493:

women, I don't think it's unreasonable to leave these as they are. Of course, if anyone wants to nominate everything to change to Graduates of foo, I'll support it. --

5202:

There seem to be enough BB presenters to make a category useful, and it's such a high-profile show that hosting it is a defining attribute of its presenters. However,

1205: 5178:. We categorize reality TV hosts/presenters as game show hosts. From the parent the articles can then be disbursed to an appropriate national subcat if one exists. 3611:

is not only apparently English by nationality (having been placed in English bishops, despite being very Welsh acc to his article) but in a subcat of the category

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There are only four films in this category, and little possibility for expansion. The films should be added to the Mortal Kombat template, and the cat should be

4042:

Although I can't find the discussion page, it has been brought up that "symbol" would be more appropriate than "emblem", particularly because the definition of

3665:

If you say so ('Pre-Reformation UK bishops' suggests to me a bishop who was (a) serving in the UK, (b) pre-reformation) - perhaps you will concede that to find

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through a category page, plus it can include other pages relevant to the topic, something that the category fails to do. As such the category is redundant. --

1419:

I know that was a self-reference, but mentioned it because it has lottsa external references on that point. I shoukd have said that was whY I linked to it :) --

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member. Nice.) The movies and television series are ludicrously far removed from the actual game series. There's absolutely no reason to clutter up the main

1013:, films that have less sequals have their own category (28 Days Later, I Know What You Did Last Summer, etc.). But it should have the F in films lowercase. 4195: 3039: 703: 5206:

the consensus is that it is too narrow, it makes no sense to me to lump reality TV hosts in with game show hosts: it would be much better to create a new

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as no-one knows who the "next king of Israel is or will be" since according to Judaism, the claimant to the throne of final rulership of all Jews is the

3584:(to which many people have understandably added their parish church) are in even more of a mess, both an indiscrimate mixture of provinces of the main 4187: 4374:- minus the improperly categorized articles for performers, the category has the show article and a character subcat. Cat not needed for navigation. 5321: 3273: 2708: 1078: 219:

as appropriate per article. We just did another one of these not too long ago and consensus was not to categorize game shows by production company.

5117: 3425:- These people are generally referred to as "bishops", not "primates". The current category name is confusing and should be changed accordingly. 3007: 1870: 1187: 21: 4953:

does anyone have any evidence of which term is actually preferred in Australia? I don't want to assume that Australia follows British English. --

4178: 3993:). Although monshō is technically the correct word, "symbol" works just as well and would make it easier for people to search for the category. 5109: 3535:

is now needed; it's not my field, but I am very concerned that it may include far many other posts where the term "primate" is inappropriate. --

3055: 2944: 3199:- Could you then suggest a rename? The title "primate" is not used for these people. (Maybe a title using "Cardinal" would be appropriate.) 2976:). He has been deliberately creating categories that are redundant with existing bishop, patriarch, metropolitan, etc. categories (again, see 1862: 1246: 1183: 3557:- After the last two "delete" comments, I looked at the subcategories more carefully and discovered that not all the churches are part of the 3440:

as in the last nom, these are all bishops who have been head of their respecive churhes, under a variety of titles. They qualify as Primates.

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Bryn Mawr should also be removed; males graduate from the post graduate programs at Bryn Mawr and males are included in its alumni category;

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could easily be "redundant" to a template, but is kept anyhow because it groups all related articles, this one does that too. It also stops

5100: 5061: 3218: 2804: 1233: 1853: 1305:, which is correctly named; the sub-categories should be renamed to match. It would be helpful to create a category redirect in each case. 333:, though it needs a better parent vcat and is probably worth splitting into origin and residence, as per those for other countries, e.g., 1316:

uses "Alumni of foo". I suggest that any moves to standardise the US and UK conventions should be done in a separate group nomination. --

1313: 1061: 296: 17: 3285: 3132: 2121:, I see no need to encapsulate by-nationality categories in by-continent wrappers, and there is no other reasonable use for this cat. 3863: 1282: 1255: 1228: 580: 572: 3528: 3277: 3252:

likewise. I hope all those recent discussions on primates that I have not participated in were not using these sorts of arguments.

2972:- Most of the "Primates" hierarchy was created by a disruptive editor who is currently blocked for excessive category creation (see 2507: 1278: 1251: 1224: 3637: 4030: 3974: 3951: 3403: 2659: 2250: 2216: 1219: 563: 300: 4087: 3970: 3947: 3607:

Johnbod as usual makes a lot of sense ... one's resolve does weaken faced with any religious category. I find for instance that

4885: 4862: 3577: 3172: 2667: 2246: 2224: 1724:. Everything in it is categorized elsewhere and interlinked through each other and the main article. No need for the category. 1273: 1215: 338: 1691: 1048: 4516:- small category for a cancelled series, unlikely to expand and the material is linked through the articles and navtemplate. 4487: 1269: 1264: 216: 2947:, which uses the titles that are more often applied to these people. The primates category should be deleted accordingly. 2650: 2401: 2207: 4727: 1699: 4607: 4495: 4046:

doesn't really match the category's contents, though the two are pretty much used interchangeably on a day to day basis. -

1260: 1070: 1053: 767: 754: 3632: 3612: 3268:). If both the title and the function are the same, then the most common way of referring to the people should be used ( 2803:

Tailkinker, categories are not redundant to templates. The categories serve to organize articles by commonality. Just as

2024: 1682: 5338: 4478: 3558: 3471:"Primate" is a function or role, which may or may not also be a name or title. Naturally they are all bishops as well. 2808: 2740: 2726: 2704: 2506:. There may be a good way of categorizing these folks, but this isn't it. There's no objective criterion for inclusion. 2409: 2054: 997: 212: 5317: 4735: 4345: 3990: 2392: 962: 4881: 4858: 4718: 3266:

Category:Primates of the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East, and Alexandria and Jerusalem

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don't, the Messiah issue is irelevant. I must say I was expecting to see JC in the category. As to time elapsed, the

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per nom for consistency with lead article and per explanation of difference between biochemicals and biomolecules.

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per Will Beback & Pavel, there is a special place in deletion hell for categorization by undefinable opinion.

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is more comprehensive, with these buildings and more in its city subcategories, so there is no need for a merger.

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