Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2009 May 25

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their. Most musicians go their entire career with no Grammy Nominations whatsoever. More importantly, the National Academy of Recording Arts & Sciences (NARAS or The Grammys) sends out ballots to its membership, who vote in the first round for the nominees. From a very long list of submissions (submitted only by members and music companies) the membership votes in a first round to determine who the nominees are for each category. NARAS considers the nomination itself as an award and even holds an official ceremony to honor the nominees several days prior to the telecast. During that ceremony, certificates are presented to each nominee for having won the nomination. By way of example, when a movie or an actor is nominated for an academy award, but doesn't win, the studio certainly advertises the nomination long after the awards ceremony. Just being nominated is and of itself is a notable event that is clearly notable and worthy of recognition.

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like Australia, South Africa, and New Zealand), whereas railway engineer tends to be used for the actual engineers. Sir Nigel Gresley was a railway engineer, but that doesn't mean he drove the trains. Given that we tend to use UK English for non-English speaking countries in Europe on Knowledge (XXG), the above categories are correctly named. I suspect some work is needed both on the title of this category and on an article on railway engineers (which should at least be a disambiguation page rather than a redirect). But even if it was a redirect, this category would still be confusingly named, so the split Vegaswikian suggests is probably a good one.

2704:- While "persons" is the correct plural, it is too formal and in informal speech feels like a childish wrong word. "People", on the other hand, is the commonly used plural across the several varieties of English that I'm familiar with. While, for ease of communication, we must have standard orthography and word usage, we must also not restrict the normal movement of the English language across time. 4854:, not works, although I accept most of the sub-cats contain mainly works. For some reason there seems to be a phobia about categorizing collections and their history, which is a subject that has been receiving a great deal of academic attention in recent decades. Note also that a great number of the museum sub-cats for art galleries, like 2725:; it is like other mass nouns such as "rice", "luggage", "furniture" in that it always refers to a collection and has no allowed inflection for a unit of the collection. "Mass nouns" have different grammatical rules than do "count knowns", those things we normally think of as prototypical nouns, with their rules of "singular" and "plural". 4936:-- a museum may house a number of separate collections of artefacts, each consisting of a number of artefacts. The examples that immediately spring to mind are of books in the British Library (formerly in British Museum), such as Thomason Tracts and Harliean Collection, but the same considerations will apply to museum collections. 3325:

used for a locomotive operator "in most English dialects" - as far as I know, it's rarely used in any dialects that way. It's not used that way in the US or Canada (where the word "railroad" is used), and it's not used that way in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, or just about anywhere else which uses UK English.

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separate category by country for civil/construction/surveying and location engineers? The categories for Railway entrepreneurs and perhaps Railway pioneers have only Austrian, German & Swiss subcategories at present; if they are useful categories there should be subcategories for the other countries as well.

4012:. I expect any suggested rename is going to be awkward. I suggest deletion be considered, since there may not be a 1:1 relationship between the film's performance and the studio closing. There are always other factors—most likely these films were just one important straw in the load that broke the camel's back. 2759:- The idea to delete is ridiculous considering how many projects/tasks revolve around articles in this category right now. As for the rename, anything with "Living persons" should be renamed to "Living people" including the policy, for reasons nicely stated above by Quiddity, Beeswaxcandle, and Studerby. 3379:

will have as subcategories “Fooland locomotive designers” ie by nationality and as well as Austrian, British German & Swiss there should be American, Canadian, French and Italian locomotive designers; I suppose there would be someone from each of those countries. Are there engineers to justify a

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Explicit appears to be pursuing a career in the music industry himself, and I wish him the best of luck. As a voting member of the academy, I hope to be voting for him one day. If he is nominated, I am quite certain he would consider it an honor worthy of recognition within the pages of Knowledge

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The present wording can be read two or three ways, as the lead text notes: "This category is only for a) sub-categories of articles on individual objects, or lists of them, or b) specialized collections, in the Collections of museums and art galleries. Please add articles on museums in the correct

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If my new category of Grammy award nominees needs to be a subcategory of Music award winners and in turn a subcategory of Award winners, that's fine. But, to consider a Grammy Nomination less than an award is quite insulting to many musicians who have been significantly recognized and honored by

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is never used there - and that term has a different meaning in the places where it is used. I agree that the category should be renamed and split per Vegaswikian's suggestion, I'm just pointing out that you're arguing under a misapprehension if you think that the term "railway engineer" is widely

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denotes a person who drives and operates the train, not designs it." That may be true in the US with railroad engineers, but in my experience the terms locomotive driver or locomotive operator are far more widely used for, erm, locomotive drivers in UK English-speaking countries (including places

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The main reason I've nominated the category for deletion is for the fact that it lacks a precedent. For example, for Category:Grammy Award winners, is a subcategory of Category:Music award winners, which is a subcategory of Category:Award winners, and so on. As you'll see, there is currently no

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Railway engineers (category) in practice seem to be mechanical engineers, which ignores the contributions of railway civil engineers in surveying and locating and laying track and bridges/tunnels. There does not even seem to be an article on A M Wellington the great railway location engineer!

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about this one, which ended Nom+2 in support; 9 for oppose - that's numbers of course, but the oppose arguments are rather compelling. One of the support votes looks jokey as well. Consensus can change, of course, but as I said, the oppose points raised last time round are rather strong, IMO. -

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Can you check whether the overlap is 100%? I believe a common scenario is for people to add the "living people" category, and then for those who are more into the nuts-and-bolts of Knowledge (XXG) to come along later and update the talk page. For that reason alone, keeping this as an article

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per the "it's a sovereign nation but not a separate city in a 'by city' category tree" argument. Not going to upmerge as the two subcategories are already well-categorized in other religious categories; this doesn't stop anyone from being bold if they want to upmerge these.

3089:; so that “German people in rail transport” can also link into “Rail transport in Germany” and “German people by occupation”. How about categorising all the entries in “People in rail transport” by nationality so that they link into these country categories also? 3078:, which seems to be an old British term for Chief Mechanical Engineer. And call it locomotive designers not locomotive builders and designers (the builder is either a railway workshop or a separate company, or going down to the shop floor is the machinist!). 2581:

if anyone wants this nomination to receive fair consideration, post a notice on the project pages that really depend on it. This is a special case category and any changes should not be made without proper input. Is this the largest category on the wiki?

4465:- When UCFD was seperate, we had recently just started to speedy close these as a form of IAR. I wouldn't oppose continuing that practice here, since these have no chance of being kept without some large change in consensus/DRV discussion. 3599:. This category has major problems, it is just so wrong to have an introduction that points to a lead article while the rest of the introduction says that the lead article does not apply here but here is the inclusion criteria being used. 4071:

This category lists movies that caused their studios to shut down. Since there couldn't be too many of these, i thought that i'd create a category. What's wrong with this category, the name, the category's strategy, or is it not defining?

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per discussion in the next section up. Alansohn, these are a completely different thing to railroad engineers, who are engine drivers - these are the actual railway engineers, i.e., the civil engineers and designers who make the railways.

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but reallocate the articles between railway engineers (civil engineers), involved in track landscaping and construction, and mechanical engineer Locomotive designers/builders. At the moment both groups are in these categories - eg

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for categories involving Vatican City. It explicitly says categories are named "of Vatican City" or "in Vatican City", with no "the". If this is wrong, let's get the convention changed first, and then change all the categories.

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Both names are used, so it's not really a big deal which one we use. But I now believe I should have chosen the other name when I created the category, to reduce confusion. I have no objection to the rename proposal. — Carl

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Hmm. So you'd similarly support upmerging of all Vatican City categories into Rome parents? If not, then I don't see that this follows. (The) Vatican City is a sovereign nation and technically separate from Rome, after all.

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Removing that one subcategory ad rewording the introduction allows for inclusion of individuals who qualify since they did the job defined under the main article. It remains to be seen if this makes the category too

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This is long established and populated in part by inserting LIVING in the lifetime template and surrogates such as BD. This is thus a complex nomination, which cannot easily be dealt with by the closing ADMIN.

2498:. It can't be declared redundant to a talk page category, because a talk page category isn't in mainspace, where it can be used by mainspace logic. For example, I'm pretty sure the BLP editnotice relies on it. 359:

alternates between the two terms (with/without "The"), but the state's official title is "The state of the Vatican City"). I've never heard it referred to before without the definite article, but it seems

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I submit that artists who have won a nomination, should be entitled to be classified as something less than a Grammy Award Winner, but certainly more than an artist who has never been nominated at all.

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there were an article on some non-Catholic religious subject in the Vatican City, then maybe the category would make sense. Otherwise, the two included subcategories are basically already in the main

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One option might be to broaden the focus on "final films released by film studios" and not make any sort of causal claim, but even that might be too complicated for a category to handle. Thoughts?

3672:, as only about 2/16 of the articles are about Americans, and some seem to me to have been other kinds of engineers - the similar titles, using a US-only usage, are clearly leading to confusion. 2535: 2516: 147: 4142:

categorization or not. It's not necessarily valid or useful to create a category for absolutely every possible grouping of multiple topics that you can think of — we're an encyclopedia, not

3815: 2499: 4009: 2670:) is more commonly used in place of the plural, e.g. 'two people were living on a one-person salary'". I think we're fine, for now. This isn't an its/it's egg-on-face-catastrophe. -- 143: 3444: 2969: 42: 37: 589:) & while Vatican City is a sovereign nation it is not a separate city - see for example the way the churches are categorized, all under Rome. Nb also the extraterritorial 635:

Vatican city is a sovereign state, so it should not be in a "by city" category. Furthermore, the only religion there will be Catholicism, so that the category is pointless.

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I named it "studio killers" for short of whatever it could've been called. The alternative name above is way too long. I didn't create this category with stupid intentions.

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also, transferring many across. Really articles on individual works should be kept separately from articles on collections. All the 41 articles in the main cat are about

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per MZMcBride and Jennavecia, I think it would introduce too much confusion into (a) large-scale project(s), and bring a net negative to too many aspects of the 'pedia. —

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denotes a person who drives and operates the train, not designs it. Also, I think the main category should be "Locomotive builders and designers", rather than having a

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Wha? Whether adjective or noun, it's either "Vatican City," "The Vatican," or "The Holy See" everywhere I've lived in the U.S.— essentially never "the Vatican City."-

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Hi Explicit and everyone else. I hope I'm responding in the correct place. I have now read a response to me from Explicit that included the following explanation:

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and then 4 subcats (listed above). These 6 should be treated together. There seem to be no US ones ... what are such people called in the US, and elsewhere? What is

2843:. Long established name used in hundreds of thousands of articles. I can't stand the idea that people (or persons) would start renaming this name in large scale. -- 2453: 483: 4888:

cat. But IMO many of the 41 articles in the existing cat are better categorised as "Private collections"/"Former private collections"/"Museums" etc. etc.

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singular). Both formulations are grammatically collect, which makes agreeing on a right one impossible. If we change the parent category title to

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sub-category/ies of Category:Museums." This invites confusion and the injunction not to add "articles on museums" that happen to be called, e.g.,

4295:(where it already is), making the nominated category empty and/or redundant. I suggest an article be written prior to the creation of a category. 4086:

See the last two sentences in my nomination. How does one prove direct cause and effect here? There are always other factors to a studio closing.

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et al. "Really articles on individual works should be kept separately from articles on collections" – I agree 100%. I would happily settle for

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This is essentially impossible to define a criteria for entry. On the contrary, what you could do is create a list and provide sources (e.g.

4008:. I'm speechless—meaning I'm not too sure what to propose here. The idea from the definition would suggest that this category is essentially 1692: 1100: 3303: 3075: 2619:

we cannot help it if those who let us play in their Wiki have poor grammar and force us to have this cat. Get over it and moooooove on.

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Nobody's saying your intentions were stupid — but I think you might want to familiarize yourself with categorization policies, such as

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for example might not seem to belong here, but in fact both have closed as museums, & I think this is a valid cat for them now.

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could indeed be used as a super category, with the articles also re-allocated. Some of course were both, but relatively few.

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could indeed be used as a super category, with the articles also re-allocated. Some of course were both, but relatively few.

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that employ "the" in their names. I think it's typically called Vatican City or the Vatican, but not the Vatican City. -

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was also set up & has been prodded, as it is cut n'paste from the 2 breed articles. No need for the cat - that the

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I nvever said it was. All i said was that it is technically separate from Rome, which it is. It's a different country.

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is the one who operates trains. Confusion is from the similar names and the different usage of the term engineer.

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pure POV - essentially everyone has an opinion on these, but there is no objective inclusion/exclusion criteria.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Sounds reasonable. I'm not aware of a single case where one of these hasn't been deleted after being nominated.

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4937: 4847: 4797: 4718: 4638: 4399: 3993: 3307: 3143:"Engineer" 5 b: in England only those in charge of engines of war and ship engines, in the US train drivers. 2970:

Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_June_7#Locomotive_designer_and_railway_engineer_categories

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Sorry if my proposal seems to exemplify this "phobia" for the history of collecting; I admire your work on

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Non-notable and unnecessary category. There's no precedent of "award nominees" or anything of that type. —

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The first two might be ok, but 2engineers" is clearer and more usual than "designers" for civil engineers.

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Presumably you say "in the Quezon City," "in the Cape Town," and "in the Botany Bay" as well? ;-) -

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Category:Films that caused their studio production companies to shut down due to poor performance

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I must admit to being a little confused by the initial comments that "In most English dialects,

3074:(and seperated into Fooland locomotive designers, ie entries by nationality). Also incorporate 4918: 4867: 4610: 4194: 4169: 4151: 4143: 3916: 3721: 3677: 3625: 3583: 3385: 3359: 3317: 3299: 3242: 3185: 3148: 3094: 2844: 2465: 1704:

is a multi-sports club that also includes hockey. The players in this category are players of

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Category:Award nominees, and I believe your category is the only one to include nominees.

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Note: the following comment was added to the page after the discussion was speedily closed:

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Train drivers is not a good choice since these people do much more then drive a train.

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Re Rail Transport categories, I have recently made various nationality categories for

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_June_7#Category:Railway_engineers

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The BLP tag on the talk page makes this category redundant (articles are listed in

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was probably the intended use. Care is needed in cleaning up these differences.

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Consistency and symmetry are valuable criteria for change, but pedantry is not.--

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This category only contains footballers, but the name does not reflect that.

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to remove the periods; no consensus on any other change to the abbreviation.

1139:. If this proves to be the most common name, the category should be renamed 403:

Perhaps it's one of those "US English vs rest-of-the-world English" things.

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