Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2009 April 15

1576:

category (let's say) was wrong but there was no objections to the rename (because no editors with an understanding of education naming conventions in Ghana had the category watchlisted), should this category be renamed? Because that is what happens in these mass CfD nominations. This nomination should be withdrawn and a separate CfD for each category should be listed so consensus for each specific renaming can be demonstrated. Further, renamings should not be proposed without at least an attempt to ascertain if the proposed name is appropriate, not just relying on an assumption with no real idea if the assumption is correct. That is how poor decisions are made. --

3963:- "Previous discussions have formed the consensus that a category for an artist's albums should be created even if they have only released one album (irrespective of whether they are likely to release more in the future).". Though I was not involved in said discussions, I do a lot of category work with albums, and if these artist categories were not applied, the albums would not be in the location or genre categories, as album articles should not be placed directly into location categories (for instance, 3728:, for now. While I agree that all such categories should be deleted, I don't think it should be done on individual basis, otherwise we will end up in deleting some of anti-someone categories and keeping the others. I suggest that all such categories are nominated for deletion at the same time, and we discuss whether the existence of such categories is appropriate. Turcophobia is an accepted scholarly term, and this category is no better or worse than other similar categories. -- 5101:

matter of being well-focused with reasonably clearly-defined inclusion criteria. As currently named/conceived, this category seems pretty fuzzy to me. Perhaps you can suggest a different name that would better address these concerns. At the same time, bear in mind that there should also be a least a few more articles available to populate the category. It's just not appropriate to create purely "speculative" categories.

5206:"associated with" category without meaning: food shortages - is this a category for obese people? people with too many children? Various dictators who use starvation as a means of control? Farmers receiving subsidies not to farm or who sell their products to be made into ethanol? Someone on a binge buying spree at the market - buying up more than their fair share...endless possibilities, but ultimately useless... 3468:- It's striking (but perhaps not entirely surprising) to see that this category is primarily being used to cast aspersion on Armenian & Kurdish groups, etc. which have faced repression in & by Turkey, when there is, in fact, considerable anti-Turkish sentiment in places like Greece, the Balkans, and Germany. I don't think we would be having this discussion if it was being used for articles of that sort. 1679:, to the best of my knowledge. More importantly, your accusation that this is all about people "over there" (the U.S.) "trying to dictate 'standards' to the rest of the world" is not just wrong -- it's completely out of line, so I hope you will retract & strike thru it. Lastly, would you care to share the fruits of your research with the rest of us, and identify the three countries that you believe 2571:, and everyone thinks I'm a Rentonian. Or Rentonite. Or whatever.) There will be some Las Vegas metro area categories I'll support, but this isn't one of them. Please note that despite my polite disagreement with the nomination, I do want some resolution to this and the other Las Vegas categories, even if it's not the way I would do it; I definitely don't want a no-consensus result.-- 4881:

categories for anti-nuclear power activists. But I'm not sure how many other issues are really comparable. At the same time, if we start giving environmentalists multiple categories for each of their issues, that would run the risk of turning into what is referred to in these parts (CFD) as "performer-by-performance", which is frowned upon since it results in category clutter.

1704:. Given the number of entries already struck through, I have no confidence that the nominator has done his homework and that the rest of the proposed changes are valid and will not just cause more confusion. No objection to each one being relisted individually if it can be shown that the terms "university" and "college" are used interchangeably in a particular country. 3711:, otherwise known in scholarship as Turcophobia, is a well known and coined term. You can check it by searching on Google books, JSTOR or other scientific databases. Whether the nominators and supporters like it or not, it exists, just like racism and slavery existed at some point in the U.S. So nothing wrong with keeping the category. 2768:. Problem number 2 related to the City of Chicago Illinois. If you ask someone from Calumet City where they are from, they will likely tell you Chicago. That doesn't mean that places and such in Calumet City should be categorised as if they are in Chicago. There are a lot of greater metropolitan areas, but unless, until the city 3524:. Somebody said something not nice? Write a "discrimination" or "anti-sentiment" article about it! We do indeed need an effort "dedicated to improving Knowledge (XXG)'s coverage of Discrimination topics", but this isn't what this project seems to be doing. Such an effort would need to focus on ruthlessly cleaning out 4902:"associated with" and "water depletion"? Isn't the amount of water on the planet rather constant - it's just that it isn't where it may be needed and isn't necessarily in the form we want (clean) - is that depletion. And how is one associated with that? I drink water - I wash my car - I shower - another cat for me. 2660:

successful that it is the second best know brand in the United States. Given the clear strength of the brand, why are we insisting on renaming to a category that ignores the probable primary use or worst, confuses it with a city? Plain and simple Las Vegas is a brand and we need to acknowledge that fact.

3485:, as per Folantin's convincing nomination. I note that this could formally be speedied, but since the previous discussion had very little input, it might be better to let this run its course to get a more solid result. BTW, I'd be happy to see all the other sub-cats in that parent category checked too. 3091:

Another example of using the USPS for location information. I believe that if you check, you will find that none of these are in the city! The USPS is not a source for correct location information. I have spent about 60% of my life with a mailing address from the USPS that was not where I actually

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Given the nominator seemingly has not done any research to ascertain the validity of their proposed new names, I suggest scrapping this mass nomination and going through this one cat at a time. The nominator should have been aware that North American naming conventions just don't apply everywhere and

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Category unlikely ever to be neutral. "Anti-Turkism" implies racism against Turkic people, whereas this category has been used for any person or organisation which has had a disagreement with the later Ottoman Empire, the Young Turks or the modern Republic of Turkey (e.g. every Armenian and Kurdish

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only one article which per nom, won't be axed from the tree - I removed the other article which didn't qualify as he was interned as an enemy alien in an internment camp not a concentration/extermination camp - much like German and Italian and Japanese citizens were interned under international law

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Thanks for joining the discussion and sharing your reasons for creating the category. The thing is, the rationale for what makes for a suitable category has little to do with the importance of any given issue. (Obviously, nobody is going to dispute the importance of these issues.) It's primarily a

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as much as anybody, but I don't think it makes very good sense to create multiple categories just for him. This category also suffers from the same uncertainty about its scope & inclusion criteria. Would it include all individuals who have notably contributed to the problem of water depletion?

4164:. The exact definition of assassination and ethnicity remain unclear. Combining these two inexact terms with the perennially unclear motivation (the assassin's motivation can be religion, nationality, ethnicity, or a combination of all three) is fertile ground for one big original research mess. -- 2224:

It is obvious that the rename is needed if the category is to be kept. So the issue is, how defining is this for the individuals? While there may be one or two individuals where being in the Job Corps was defining, for the majority it was not. So unless we really want another category that will

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After careful checking I've removed Hong Kong and South Africa. This sort of naming encourages errors such as that made by Cgingold on 9 March in classifying alumni of a Hong Kong secondary college (i.e. high school) as alumni of a university. People need to research these things better. This will

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as POV. While this may or may not have the same issues as other anti-foo categories, I don't think we need to have an all or nothing situation. And the fact that "it happens" is more of a reason to keep an article, not a category. People aren't going to be "aware of" this or "fight against it"

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While I find the fact that many of these locations have Las Vegas, Nevada mailing addresses, mailing address has absolutely nothing to do with the actual municipality where these facilities are located. The United States Postal Service's ZIP codes often reflect municipal boundaries, but it has no

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Las Vegas, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago etc are cases where even someone on a hilltop in remotest Kyrgyzstan or some forgotten island nation would likely know exactly what you meant, so it seems silly to add the state qualifier for those. My city's a weird case because although it's fairly well

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In Black Falcon's defense, s/he ostensibly did say "please strike through any others that may require separate discussion" -- precisely because of the very issue that you raise. Certainly nobody would insist on imposing a misleading name purely for the sake of consistency. So please feel free to

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I understand your concern, Wikiwatcher -- but I'm not sure that categories are necessarily the best way to deal with that issue. I think the basic problem revolves around the question of how many environmentalists focus exclusively or primarily on one particular issue? We do, for instance, have

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Bingo! That is the argument that was rejected over time. The consensus in place is that the anything related to the city should specify the city and the state, even if it happens to include more then the city. I lost the argument a long time ago to leave the general name, say Las Vegas or Los

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Doesn't it strike you as strange that someone would propose a category name without any idea if it was actually suitable? Given that Australia and New Zealand were incorrect, why should anyone have any confidence that any of the others are appropriate. If say, the proposed renaming of the Ghana

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as OCAT. Not every intersection of facts needs a category. In addition, while true, this may be defining for the one individual in the category, this is not part of a larger scheme. One-article categories do nothing for finding "like articles". There is nothing to be gained by a one-article

2764:- I have two problems with the premises thus far. The first is I would presume that these each are listed in some city's records somewhere. I think the USPS is awesome, but these should be categorised based upon where they pay taxes, what laws they fall under. In other words, where they are 2659:

I'll also add to this that Las Vegas should probably remain as the name for these but since there is a push to not keep names associated with cities undisambiguated I made the above proposal. The fact is, Las Vegas is primary know as a brand and it is marketed as such. The marketing is so

2527:. These rightly cover the metropolitan area. Only one is in the city. Either this should remain as is, or be renamed to reflect the fact that most of these are not in the city. A city specific category is an inappropriate option when there is an appropriate category structure available. 2566:

These articles all have addresses in Las Vegas. This is going to be my standard for whether or not I recommend something gets put into a "Las Vegas, Nevada" category. (I'm aware there are unincorporated areas that give out Las Vegas addresses. This is true in my town too. My address is in

3591:, I believe all Anti-Nationality categories should be deleted as inheritably POV. When somebody paste category Anti-Turkish or Anti-American or Russophobe or or Polonophobe or Anti-Semite they do not have an ability to attribute the opinion. And the opinions on such matters vary widely. 4710:

seems to appropriately cover the intended purpose of the category under discussion. The fact that there are millions more people who might be environmentalists concerned about climate change, all of whom could be uploaded into this category, is not a relevant reason for deletion.

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There are others. It is the only term used for major productions in Vegas that I can recall being used for these shows. If there is a better alternative, I'm open to suggestions. However, this may well be a case of local usage driving the common name for these productions.

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lived. This is common across the US. If anything, the USPS designation is proof that keeping an unqualified Las Vegas category covering a broad area is the wiser choice. But that is not going to happen. Again if there are questions, use the county assessors database.

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which has a reputation for being a very distributed city and has many institutions and services 20-40 miles (32-64 km) from its central business district. Most of the categories pertaining relate to Perth regardless of whether they are in the downtown area or not.

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After checking all 29 countries, this rename would actually be fundamentally incorrect and inconsistent with local usage in all but three of the countries listed. A CfD to undo the damage in other areas (eg Alumni) will be necessary in the near future. This is the

1522:. This name, ostensibly an attempt to standardise category names, will actually create more confusion. There is nothing wrong with having different category names for similar entities for different geographical locations. Standardisation and consistency should 1010:- That said, no prejudice against immediately re-nominating for renaming. Though the concerns below about usage of the word "college" the other countries are noted, and should probably be taken more into consideration by the nominator. (Who, in my experience, 4862:- Note that the next closest category is "Category:Water and politics," which is even more vague, and the articles included cover a broader range of topics. There should be some way of including a category for environmentalists based on specialties, IMO. -- 5082:- Outside of the spelling error, my only thought is that because food shortages, starvation, droughts, and the countless organizations set up to feed the hungry around the world, are such major issues, that the category seems reasonable, even if empty. -- 425:

Fair enough. I just wasn't sure whether "public university" and "public college" had different meanings in different countries. If the category is renamed to add "and colleges", I will nominate the non-conforming subcategories in a follow-up nomination.

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is home to at least two colleges not located in Raleigh) or renaming to one of the following: Category:Universities and colleges in The Triangle, North Carolina, Category:Universities and colleges in the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill metropolitan area.

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More questions: Would it include people involved in famine relief efforts? What about politicians and rulers whose actions resulted in famines? Or perhaps the heads of gigantic agribusiness companies that withhold commodities to manipulate markets?

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is in fact a guide for anyone willing to help cleaning up the mind-boggling amount of discrimination-cruft clogging Knowledge (XXG). Make sure to view it in its full uncollapsed glory by clicking the "show" tags. Needless to say, we also have a

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Why when not one show is in the city? The metro category can be created and all of the article will need to be moved there and then the new category from the rename here would be empty. But since that seems to be the direction, let it be.

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Category has a legit purpose and legit main article: legit because they describe historic facts. WP should not be in the business of trying to sanitize facts because they are unpleasant or politically disagreeable to one group or another.

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material. The nature of Knowledge (XXG) entails that material documenting alleged discrimination is piled up magically at our doorstep every night. The "effort" would be in sorting out the mass of bad stuff and keeping the tiny kernel of

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Notice left at the task force to see if anyone objects, if no objections I would suggest deletion. Note I would've just deleted this as G6 back when I nominated it, but it was getting late, so I nominated it more of a reminder to myself.

5376:, and I agree that it serves no purpose as an aid to navigation. There would appear to be various architecture and energy-efficient design categories (of which I am unfamiliar) that would be appropriate parents for this one subcategory. 5123:

There's a category called "Category:Environmentalists" and "Category:Environmentalists - Nuclear energy," so maybe adding other terms besides "nuclear energy" might work. As for filling it in with other people, that might be tricky.

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as supports rather a point of view, than obvious facts of racism. And as the Turkey has problems with democracy and human rights, many people and organizations who disagree with the government are automatically placed under this cat.

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block renaming for reasons given above - please work it out case by case. And in any event I have struck through the three German-speaking countries, as the German lang equivalent "Kollegium" ( / "Collegium") doesn't mean the same as

3500:-- this is only the tip of the iceberg. I would love to see the excessive discrimination-cruft piling up on Knowledge (XXG) kept in check, but the deletion of individual categories isn't really a solution. Strict enforcement of 5145:?? I sincerely hope not -- but I can't even find whatever it is you're referring to. (If you want to specify & link to a category, just insert a colon (":") right after the double brackets and before the word "Category".) 90:

category that the sentence "This person is a United States citizen who was in the Holocaust" to the article would achieve. Renaming has the same inherent problems, as we would end up with again, a one-article category.

4596:-- and possibly to others that may exist for say, researchers or ??? But if there aren't at least 3 such potential sub-cats, then it should not be kept. If kept as a container cat it would need to be renamed, either to 5035:). The potential scope and inclusion criteria for the category are unclear. For example, would it include notorious profiteers, smugglers, black market operatives? If kept it should be renamed to correct the spelling. 4439:. The two categories appear to overlap almost completely. We should pick one as the survivor, give it a name to match the parent, delete the other and merge the contents of the deleted category to the rename parent. 1439:

There wasn't an overwhelming amount of participation in that one. Perhaps an RfC should be done? That one also deals with the general case, and not the particular case, while this one deals with specific countries.

4584:- I don't think this category should be used directly for articles, as it suffers from the same basic defects as the two related categories that are nominated below, also housing the very same article ( 4690:"associated with"...whatever that means: I drive a car; now I'm categorizable. Great.... Let's see if we can upload the Motor Vehicle Dept databases and create stubs for all drivers and put them here. 4245:

As the nom: change from rename to Delete. Indeed trivial or un-verifiable facts. (But not: singling out jews alone. We are writing an encyclopedia here). The parallel CFD from April 13 gets the same. -

1097: 3413:, a Turkish historian who questions the Turkish government's attitude to the Armenian genocide, was tagged with this cat. Its creator has been using this category as nothing but a form of polemic. 1856: 2541:

I'll note that today's paper uses Las Vegas as the short name for the Las Vegas Metropolitan area. Clearly supporting the blending of those two terms. It also uses Kansas City in the same way.

3453: 1231: 3783:. Why single this one out for deletion and ignore so many of the others found in the parent category like Anti-Americanism, Francophobia, Germanophobia, Anti-Japanese sentiment, and so forth? 1289: 4141: 2710:

in Scotland established early last millennium, population about 80,000, and their supporters are adamant that every single thing anywhere about Perth should be disambiguated. Ah well.

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and regular killings; adding a further layer of complexity will only create a mess. Secondly, it is unclear how we would determine whether an assassination is "ethnicity-motivated". –

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per Jc37 above - it seems to me that this is an example of overcategorisation. We don't normally have categories for events by venue - or, we shouldn't, as those links make clear.

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I'm sure the intent was to categorize schools in the Raleigh-Durham-Cary CSA, which is a much larger area than just the city of Raleigh or either of the metropolitan areas. Since

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Angeles, for the general area and add the state qualifier when you are only talking about the city. So the proposed rename seeks to avoid a rename that would be city specific.

1164: 1038: 1507: 1258: 407: 363: 1919:. If needed, the schools can be split under the parent to the various cities. But I suspect that there is no driving need to do so. Consideration should also be given to 1338: 1267: 1213: 1195: 1138: 1115: 1048: 251:? It is unlikely that there were American perpetrators. Furthermore, US citizenship should have allowed potential victims to escape abroad or after 1942 to be interned. 5471: 1329: 1302: 1276: 1222: 1124: 1061: 5353:

I'm not sure why a rather unlikely misinterpretation of a category title would be an appropriate rationale for deletion. Can you offer any explanation for why it should?

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These articles all are located in places with addresses in Las Vegas. No opinion on whether "Production shows" is the right term; "stage shows" might be an alternative.--

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which kind of voids the above discussion. I'd suggest a no consensus close at this point and allow an immediate renomination based on the new name for the lead article.

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Throughout history many people were killed just beacuse they were turks from Balkans to Caucasus.Therefore people should be aware of anti turkism and fight against it.

1186: 1177: 5459: 4279:- breaking down assassins by ethnicity is overcategorization on the basis of ethnicity and this category will be empty shortly once its only subcat gets deleted. 1984: 1623:. I don't doubt this sort of thing applies to many current or former Commonwealth countries too. This inane proposal needs to be retired and carefully rethought. 3031:

I'm less-than-convinced that "production shows" is the correct naming configuration. It strikes me as redundant (shows are productions and productions, shows).

2114:. As with other alumni categories, the standard of inclusion should be notability, not fame. Also, Knowledge (XXG) style requires that Alumni be in lower case. 1603:. Are we going to start listing anyone who attended a TAFE? Some public and private high schools as others have said above also style themselves "College" - eg 870: 861: 713: 704: 566: 1871:

are two, totally different cities (even though the area is often referred to Raleigh-Durham, making it sound like one large city). The category even includes

213:(as opposed to American citizens of Japanese ancestry who were interned wrongly) in the USA after the declaration of war - and was not part of the Holocaust. 5339:

per nom; "solar design" has many meanings and some people believe that God designed the sun (solar design) and this category cannot have any "people" in it.

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make more albums in the immediate future to put in the category. Overcategorization since the album in question is already in three suitable categories.

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because of the category, they'll do so because of the article (although I'm not sure that to "fight against" anti-turkism is a reason to keep either).

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For consistency with our "by country" naming conventions. It might be worthwhile to consider the option of adding "and colleges" to the title (i.e.

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for sub-cats for people who are in fact "associated with global warming" (or climate change) in specific ways. I'm referring, for starters, to

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for many examples. I just happened across this nom; has the nominator notified the WikiProjects for the other countries (where they exist)? --

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and people over there should stop trying to dictate "standards" to the rest of the world just because they can't speak the language properly.

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used in a manner akin to universities in these countries? If not, then they maybe shouldn't be renamed. Do colleges exist in these countries?

17: 4630: 474:"colleges" version. The terms are not interchangeable for many readers, and "universities" is clear enough. See discussion below as well. -- 120: 5176: 112: 4803: 4795: 1996:," which is composed of the cities of Greensboro, Winston-Salem, and High Point, all of which have many universities/colleges as well. -- 1363: 1093: 5011: 5003: 4564: 4556: 3489: 1441: 1404: 5295: 5287: 4667:

needs renaming too! Scientists and journalists/Al Gore need to be segregated. I might even live with this one as an empty parent cat.

4461: 3012: 2797: 2781: 2727: 2561: 1227: 152: 103: 5373: 5316: 4786: 4601: 4597: 4436: 4374: 3185: 3072: 1620: 1560:- striked through Australia - (after having been to the Australian noticeboard first - are all other projects adequately notified?) 1066: 4994: 4824: 4547: 4190: 3217: 1285: 5278: 1312: 1241: 5142: 4362: 3907: 3779: 857: 700: 5319:, which was created at the same time by the same editor. I will provide new parents for that category when this one is deleted. 3533:

material. If this was being done, there would be no problem even with having an "anti-Turkism" category, applied judiciously. --

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unnecesssary ethnic category, interestingly singling out Jews alone. Hmmmmm... is their some reason for that. People wonder...

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Not convinced - wouldn't this argument apply to any city anywhere in the world with a metropolitan area? For example I live in

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Given the large difference between a city, a post office, and a metro area, we should carefully maintain those distinction. --

2512: 1334: 1263: 1209: 1191: 1134: 1111: 1044: 350: 144: 140: 3486: 1898: 1325: 1298: 1272: 1218: 1120: 1057: 2996: 1835:, as the name of the main article changed towards the end of the discussion. May be immediately renominated for renaming.-- 1200: 1147: 1102: 1084: 1075: 4121: 1182: 1173: 269: 230:

While there is only one current article, the category captures a defining characteristic and has ample room for expansion.

188: 4358: 2011: 1941: 1880: 553: 4827:(see CFD below), this category seems to have been created (by the very same editor) solely for one article. Now I admire 4396: 3807:, the term exists. Or delete anti-Armenianism as well. We should be consistent here, can't delete one and leave others. 5553: 5425: 5401: 5252: 5228: 4968: 4944: 4760: 4736: 4638: 4593: 4521: 4497: 4328: 4304: 4083: 4059: 3873: 3849: 3335: 3311: 2964: 2940: 2835: 2480: 2456: 2295: 2271: 2069: 2045: 1820: 1796: 1633:

need a followup cfd to rename back several "Alumni by university or college in..." in countries where it is incorrect.

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How does making the category name unnecessarily longer (not to mention plain wrong) "reduce undue complexity"? --

5315:- This category serves no purpose whatsoever: It has no contents except for a single, utterly redundant sub-cat, 3972: 2206:

There are plenty of notable people who are not famous, so my proposed rename would widen the category's scope. --

1889: 1515: 449:'s suggestion above, as "university" and "college" have quite different meanings in many countries (for example, 5552:

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to make sure people know public colleges can be listed in the category as well. I don't see an issue with the

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is the article that seems to match the scope best, I'm leaning toward the rename suggested by Vegaswikian. --

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after talk see below) into encyclopedic title, then check articles. Parallel discussion is going on with

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comparable to discrimination of some poor marginalized ethnic minority? Yet it's all in a day's work for

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annexes the surrounding area, whatever is located in the surrounding area should be categorised as they

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that attracted a small amount of comment. The re-creator is not the same user as the original creator.

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per J Milburn; and in any case Ms Smith is 15 and further albums cannot be ruled out (her debut album

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these would be legitimate provided they are only PARENT categories, without any articles in them.

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which has already been created). If not one show is in Las Vegas, let's not even use the name. --

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unless it can be shown that the terms "university" and "college" are interchangeable in Jamaica.

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unless it can be shown that the terms "university" and "college" are interchangeable in Iceland.

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That issue was addressed in the previous CFD (which was the basis for proceeding with this one).

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Well, there are many google hits on this, but for many types of things. 'Ulalena is described

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unless it can be shown that the terms "university" and "college" are interchangeable in Iran.

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political party seems to have been added to this category). Great potential for violation of

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2009 March 16#Category:People by university

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You might want to hop off that big, tall horse of yours for a moment, Orderinchaos, and

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The one person categorised is some one who sought to obstruct the holocaust. How about

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article was whining about "discrimination" in the "anti-Turkish sentiment" during the

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here. For one thing, it just so happens that the nominator, Black Falcon, is not even

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if this direction is taken since that is the name of the main article on the area.

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Farmers who have drained aquifers? Operators of coal slurry pipelines? What about

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There is only 1 article to populate this category with and there is no indication

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of citizenship and association with an event. This is, as far as I know, the only

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per nom. (This is the place to discuss categories. The others are for articles.)

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obligation to do so. Mailing address is simply NOT where its located. The use of

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I can't speak for other countries but in Australia and New Zealand, "college" is

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was released on 9 March 2009 - expecting more by April smacks of impatience).

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need someone to maintain the contents on a full time basis, we really need to

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take precedence over common naming conventions in use in those localities. --

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I forgot I was looking at articles at that point, not categories. I noticed

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are the places to discuss merging. This is the place to suggest DELETIONS. -

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Stroke out, unbold for readibility. I should not vote twice. See nom ratio. -

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.

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Category:Universities and colleges in The Research Triangle (North Carolina)

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