Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 March 16

3988:

suggestion to change "New Jersey Transit" to "NJ Transit" in category names. Easy right?—should be a snap to complete it quickly. But now, because we've had all of these other supplemental proposals and debates, the original proposed change has been held up, and I imagine that this discussion looks quite daunting for administrators who might consider closing it. As a result, what should have been a quick change which could have been implemented in 48 hours has now been open for two months. Had we just made the initial change, we then could have started a nomination to deal with the supplemental issue. But instead, we have a messy discussion that is dragging on by remaining open, even though no users have made comments in the discussion for several weeks.

410:-- I agree that the content is too disparate to make a good category. As I look at it there are much more than 4 articles. All are armies of non-state entities. We have the crusader military orders, which were in a sense international armies, not private ones. The Teutonic Order crated a state. The Templars and Hospitallers were in a sense originally armies of the crusader state of Outremer; and the Hospitallers later had their own states in Rhodes and then Malta. The military wings (or militias) of political parties is quite different. Then we have the Atholl Highlanders who were (are) a sort of pretend army. My reaction is to 845:, except for articles/subcategories that are already located elsewhere within that hierarchy. Although this discussion shows mixed opinions, there is a degree of consensus that this category is overpopulated at present and overlaps too much with related categories. Those who preferred to keep it have not addressed that problem, which is the core of the nominator's rationale. Since "Southern Levant" is used in academia (apparently for political neutrality), then rather than delete or redirect the category page I will make it a disambiguation page between 2616:. The only argument to add the disambiguator is for consistency, not necessity. If "PATH stations" already acts as natural disambiguation, then there is no need for additional parenthetical disambiguation. Also, it just looks bad to have parenthetical disambiguation in the middle of a title: "PATH (rail system) stations", and putting the disambiguating term at the end seems to create this unnecessary double/useless disambiguation: "PATH stations (rail system)". I don't think an argument for consistency is enough for this. -- 2612:. Djflem is correct that disambiguation of these categories are not needed. The difference between PATH and Georgia is that with Georgia, there are two localities with the same name, so a parenthetical disambiguator in categories is always necessary because natural disambiguation is not possible. However, with this PATH, there are no other rail/transit systems that it needs to be disambiguated from. Therefore, the word "stations" acts as somewhat of a natural disambiguator from the other types of 3907:. This CFD never should have been this complicated. If you think that the NJ Transit stations category requires a more detailed hierarchy, then go ahead and be bold: populate and categorize the bus/rail/train categories you already partially created. There probably should be a category for "Proposed NJ Transit stations", and if you want to make it a container category and further sub-categorize articles to "Proposed NJ Transit stations", then go for it. -- 3799:. Yes, but sometimes it's helpful to do things in a step-wise process, rather than trying to bite it all off in one go. This proposed first step was to get the naming corrected. After that, it would have been relatively simple for you to make the changes you desire. Mixing the processes together has created a bit of a confused mess, with the result that the final result is going to take a lot longer to achieve. 2733:, both Georgia categories have a very similar subcategory structure under them and it wouldn't make sense to make an exception just for one single subcategory, as in the previous discussion. With PATH this is not the case, the whole topic of PATH (rail system) is completely dissimilar to any other PATHs and so is the category tree. Having said that, RevelationDirect also has a point. 2970:

defining, and the author can make statements of fact that the character is a psychopath/psychotic as they create their characters as they may. The relationship between the fictional actions of the character and classical psychopathy are immaterial to their being a fictional psychopath. (just as a fictional police officer may do nothing like real world policing) --

4178:. That the proposed names are "awkward" is subjective. Category names are not prose, and I find having the article name different than the article name to be more awkward, which also is subjective. Given that we essentially have opposing subjective views, it makes sense to go with the standard procedure, which is matching the category name to the article name per 477:

when the level of disorder in a society reaches a certain point that the state can no longer suppress them and there is dispersed private power with leaders wanting to succeed with their own violent methods. This category is the correct method of grouping them together; there is no other category that does this.

434:. I've taken the liberty to execute Peterkingiron's idea of moving most articles to relevant subcategories, just in order to facilitate the discussion. We're now left with just more than a handful of articles, most of them are some sort of "personal army", and three subcats. It may be worthwhile to keep, 4754:

prefers "Railway" and that there are a LOT of companies/businesses named "Pacific Electric". If people decided that, yes, this is the right name, then my opposition would be overridden in any case; but it seems to me that there is some basis for preferring the "railway" variant and that therefore the

3902:

Djflem, no one is arguing with you or even opposing your suggestions for the stations hierarchy. I haven't seen any opposition at all to what you have raised. You're just complicating this seemingly simple CFD. What you have proposed makes sense, and can be done entirely separately from this CFD. The

3687:

stations. So the suggestions of a name change that takes into account what is contained in the category was extremely appropriate or is what the category holds irrelevant to its name? That was the question, still unanswered, but null at this point. To properly categorize the NJT stations a different

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itself is rather ill-defined and not a valid term used in modern psychology. Per our article on the subject: "Although no psychiatric or psychological organization has sanctioned a diagnosis titled "psychopathy", assessments of psychopathic characteristics are widely used in criminal justice settings

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I am not an expert at all, but I see on the Russian Knowledge at least six categories (and more articles) related to Russian science fiction awards (no dedicated category though wich can be linked to the above category). Superficially, they seem to be notable by our standards; whether anybody would

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Category has a legitimate main article, has 3 subcats (with hundreds of articles and several direct articles and it is capable of continued growth as private armies not only have existed in the past, continue to exist in the present, and will no doubt be created in the future. Private armies arise

3656:

Yeah, I was hesitant to go down this path because of the issues you raise. I thought it would have been easier to just put them all in a generic "stations" category. It's weird that this nomination—which really only intended to turn "New Jersey" into "NJ"—has gotten so far off-track (har har har).

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it doesn't really matter what the real world criteria for psychopathy is, a fictional psychopath would just need to be reliably sourced to statements that the fictional character is clinically psychopathic (instead of hyperbole statements of being psycho) . As a fictional characteristic, it can be

4342:

Again, whether or not it's "awkward" is completely subjective. I think it's awkward to have categories named in a format that differs from the standard. The problem with what you have proposed is that it goes against usual disambiguation practices on Knowledge. In this case, the disambiguator is

3641:

Not that this is the proper place for this discussion (getting really off topic of this seemingly simple CfD), but how does one define a "bus station"? I'd guess that almost every "train station" also serves buses...so should every train station also be categorized as a bus station? Or is a bus

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if a RM process was carried out—a rename of the article was proposed, and there was no consensus to rename, would you then support the renames? Or is your opposition based on a substantive reason that these names are unacceptable? As I mentioned above, the article name was recently discussed

3987:

this discussion is a good example of why it can sometimes be a bad idea to propose making multiple reforms within a single discussion rather than making one reform, implementing it, and then moving on to the next change that you think needs to happen. This nomination started out as a simple

3933:. I have responded within answered the narrow parameters on which you are focused (IMO to the detriment of the bigger picture). The first I support because the category name needs to be created (and then later fixed), and the 2nd I oppose because there is no need and none will arise to have 4932:

even though that results in a few small categories here and there. But here we're two layers further down and the vast majority of countries wouldn't have very many science fiction awards. (No objection to recreating either of these later though if they get up to around 5 articles.) -

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since it includes only railroad stations and light rail stations and not bus stations, and it would be better named something that reflects that, (with my preference for rail as the word which includes both light rail and railroad/train stations, as outlined in proposed hierarchy

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to Levant. I have to express disappointment that "non-ferrous" has been removed from the title to an article, I suspect by a non-specialist. The emphasis of the article is on non-ferrous metals, and on the continuing use of bronze during the earlier parts of the Iron Age.

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rename as originally proposed, and adding the articles about the bus stations to the category. I have also included the "proposed" category in this discussion so it can match whatever is decided. (If (1) is selected, I have no preference of "rail" vs. "train", though it is

4394:

thanks for your notice of the start of the article rename discussion. I think the best course might be to simply close this discussion while we await the result there. Depending on the results there, I can re-nominate. I'm always happy to defer to article discussions in

715:. We don't have separate categories for both sides of the Northern Ireland dispute, etc., for good reason. Go with what the RS most of often use, even if it makes one side of the dispute unhappy (no matter what happens one side will be unhappy, so that's a moot point). 693:

per nom. Having two categories for exactly the same purpose is anathema to the purpose of wikipedia's categorisation system. If this proposal fails, it will be a textbook case of wikipedia's struggle to achieve rational outcomes in the Israel-Palestine arena.

348:: We do not need orphan "parent" categories that are just misc. ways to lump different things together as an overgeneralization, unless it is necessary for the integrity of the category structure. All of these things can be more specifically categorized. 4683:

informally, but it looks like there was no consensus to change. Basically, it looks like "Pacific Electric Railway Company" was the official name, "Pacific Electric" was the branded and common name, and "Pacific Electric Railway" was hardly ever used.

3177:. However, a user commented (see copied discussion) that the new category name should contain "rail" or "train", since NJ Transit also has bus stations, and they are not included in this category. I think that this is a good point. I propose we either 4769:

No, it wasn't a very extensive discussion and not one that would be determinative of anything; I just wanted to know whether your opinion was more process-based or substance-based so I can get an idea of where I might need to go from here. Thank you!

603:, the two categories seem to have the same objective. I would actually also recommend to add "(region)" to the target category, for disambiguation, as it concerns the historical region Palestine and not the State of Palestine, and C2C to its parents. 3928:

did not cause a mess, populating with sub cats and categorizing it did. As is appropriate for a discussion of a name change, which is the ONLY discussion about how to properly address NJT stations, I have simply pointed out how both categories are

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or whatever can be created later when it's needed. We rarely need one-article categories, generally only if we are sure the category will grow, or if the category missing will do some kind of violence to a systematic sub-categorization schema.

3300:, "Railway" or "Railroad" only exists for categories of companies that include this in their corporate name. If one wants a separate category for NJ Transit rail stations, then that is a possibility, but should be separate from this CFD. -- 1081:

and purge as needed, per revised proposal accepted by nom. If there end up being multiple articles pertaining to the geological reason (assuming it is a formal one, though that should be verified and the article renamed if not), then a

3380:

my nomination takes this into account. Which of the two solutions, (1) or (2), would you prefer to deal with this? I don't think what you have said is a sufficient reason to prevent changing "New Jersey" to "NJ" in the category names.

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at issue—changing it to "NJ Transit" it is the primary purpose of this nomination. I suspect that what you might mean is that you are not concerned with that part of the nomination; ie, that you do not oppose making that change.

2633:: "station" is itself a natural disambiguator, and this distinguishes it from the Georgia cases (though it is conceivable that some Georgia cases might also not need a parenthetical; e.g. anything with "ational" in it). 4008:

in favor of the original nomination for the first category, and in favor of the alternative rename for the second category, but I agree with with editors above that this has been an unnecessarily confusing discussion.

2147: 2256:(and other countries) have the parent categories of the national swimming & diving competitions as do most "International sports competitions" etc. so that they link to the national category for each sport 3420:

The renaming of the this category should only include the creation of a cat name which reflects what is contained within it. If there's going be a change, should be the right change, which at this stage is

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In the Georgia case, the argument was essentially that "Interstate Highways" was a natural disambiguator, since there are no Interstate Highways in the country of Georgia. So I don't see the two cases as

2436:. My understanding is that the usual practice for categories is that we keep the disambiguator on all subcategories of a disambiguated head category, even if it's probably unneeded for clarity. See, eg, 4373:. While I generally support bringing categories into line with the main article's title, I'm asking you to put this CfD on hold until a consensus has been found on the main article's title. Regards, 942:

not overlap with other related categories, in practice it does overlap very clearly. All of the articles except the eponymous article belong in (and usually already are in) a more specific category.

2253: 2229: 2217: 769:-- The point is that the places were depopulated in the course of the Israeli independence struggle, at the start of which both the present Israel and Palestine were part of Mandatory Palestine. 3941:, Therefore suggest changing it to the latter directly. As mentioned the choice between the word rail is best since includes both proposed light rail and railroad stations, but no bus stations. 3850:

The first of the above mentioned categories will include subcats and be populated with individual railroad stations (which would be the case with or w/o the name change, which I've made clear i

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These are not style-topic templates, they are templates wholly related to Knowledge, and not the topic of style, so should have "Knowledge" or "WikiProject" included in the category name --

3813:, two editors to this discussion did (which seems messy) Regarding the proposal, there were things to clarify, such as the use of the words rail, railroad, or train, given NJT operations. 3293: 4719:

The original article move had problems, and from what I can see was made without the possibility of discussion, though it's possible that there was some database glitch that lost all the

2899: 4657:) instead of a public transit company name, and I rode on one of the last "Pacific Electric Red Car" runs so have a long familiarity. The Pacific Electric Railway Historical Society 2662:

The proposal clearly aligns with policy of matching the main article. I think individually re-examining every category will consume a lot of our time without a navigational benefit.

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is unclear and has no defined borders. Even the article on the nebulous subject says it is a variant name for "an area of indefinite geographical extension in the Southern Levant".

4322:, it creates an awkward and unnecessary break in reading/comprehending child categories' names/foci. Clarity is the goal, not prose. Suggest/support renaming child cats to − e.g. 2437: 42: 37: 5236: 2179: 2158: 3037:. There are four articles that explicitly mention that the character is a psychopath, while with the other articles it is more vague. The parent category fits better for all. 2712:-- There is no reason why the fact that the parent article needs a disambiguator should require the children to have them too. The converse also applies: we have an article 1484: 1151: 1118: 962: 1177:

and then reconsider need for category. I have held the view that the way this category has been used is highly duplicative for some time now, as discussed on the talk page.

636:- Israel and Palestine are two neighbouring countries. Land of Israel and Palestine region are geographic regions which somewhat overlap. The proposal is totally confusing. 2015: 1950: 1844: 1578: 4544:

is about a utilities company is not a very compelling reason to name the category differently from the article. (In any case, that's why categories can have the template

2199:

Yes, but most recent international events are aquatic, some swimming but few exclusively diving or synchronised swimming, and it would be difficult to disentangle them

711:. The name "Land of Israel" is a term of art unfamiliar to most readers, and as noted above we do not need duplicate categories just because people want to bicker and 5001:

Presumably the goal would be to get an editor to say there are other potential articles? If and when those are actually created, I'm all for recreating the category.

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has three awards, and I would be very surprised if the Russian one would be smaller; the problem is more likely that nobody bothered stubbing them. Have you notified

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in some nations, and may have important consequences for individuals. The term is also used by the general public, in popular press, and in fictional portrayals."

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series — although clear for this parent category, it creates an awkward and unnecessary break in reading/comprehending child categories' names/foci. Regards —

3527:-- The abbreviation NJ will be obvious to many people, but not everyone. As a matter of policy, WP has discouraged the use of abbreviations in category names. 3642:

station a place that serves only buses and not trains? Not sure if this has been previously discussed, but it will likely need to be discussed (elsewhere). --

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Plenty of use in academic fields, there was previously far greater use on wikipedia but multiple links/pages were stealthily removed for political purposes

4594: 4502: 329:. The cat is also severely underpopulated as it only have four articles, beside the main article, and one of these is a redirect to a biographical page.-- 5240: 4958: 4660:

refers to it as the Pacific Electric Railway, as does the book "Pacific Electric Railway: Then & Now" by LA based & respected Arcadia Publishing

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almost per nom (almost in that we would never need to recreate the category if it's redundant; "schools" and "academies" are synonyms for this purpose).

4663:. Support leaving the present category/template subcategory names and instead renaming the article to Pacific Electric Railway for congruity. Regards — 3292:

as proposed. This category scheme is all stations belonging to the specific company NJ Transit, not necessarily just the rail stations. If you look at

1848: 4536:. The articles in the category that require disambiguation also use "(Pacific Electric)" as the disambiguator, not "(Pacific Electric Railway)": eg, 3763: 2221: 1840: 2879:

Deleted at CfD in 2007, recreated very recently. Delete per 2007 result. Due to 9 years since CfD, it is probably inappropriate to invoke CSD G4.

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both. The present names are silly. It's a forest-for-the-trees example of pursuing on kind of consistency to the point of common-sense failure.

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versions in January 2013 when the move was supposedly discussed. What should be happening here is that the move ought to reconsidered instead.

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attaching to "Metro Rail", so it needs to follow "Metro Rail". We are not disambiguating the lines, the projects, the stations, or the stubs.

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As mentioned, if you gonna do it do it right. So the question was what should the single listings (not categories) currently contained in

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per nom and RevelationDirect, with no objection to a future rename of the article and a consequent (speedy) move back of the categories.

3781:

explain a difference. While some NJT train stations service as NJT bus stations/terminals most do not & more often include bus stops.

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If there is interest in expanding English Knowledge's coverage on the Russian topic, I'd be happy to withdraw that one (partly because

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WP has discouraged the use of abbreviations in category names"?? Where is this policy? I don't think such a policy exists, or even a

3469:

That's one option. See also my other suggestion, which would be to add any NJ Transit bus stations to the category. Would you prefer

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purpose of the original CFDS was simply to rename "New Jersey Transit" categories to "NJ Transit", to be congruent with the article

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The recent additions to this don't seem to fit - they could better fit in military wings of political parties or chivalric orders.--

360: 173: 153: 3887:. But you did create it. The distinction you draw between bus and rail stations is why I offered two alternatives for the renames. 4264: 4228: 4156: 4108: 3966: 3754: 3617: 3493: 3415: 1154:

includes the Iron Age, perhaps "Nonferrous" could be removed from the title (and should it be "of the Southern Levant" not "in")

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will need to be created and manually added to all the train stations included in the current cat. Any volunteers? Have started

2679:"station" is itself a natural disambiguator, unlike Georgia, the country, and Georgia the state, which share an identical name. 1327: 1236: 4319: 4213: 4100: 3016:

Psychopath has had a changing definition over time. Thus we will either use it anachronistically, or use it for unlike things.

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hierarchy needs to be applied than any examples offered here as to how rail service providers cats are organized, possibly:

1056:

article needs to have its own category. In this case I think there is simply too little content about the topic on its own.

3959:"NJ Transit rail stations". The articles have long since been moved to "NJ Transit" and the category should reflect that.-- 3934: 3838: 3718: 3238: 3155: 2424:. A user opposed these changes as unnecessary disambiguation, and he has a point. The head category has since been renamed 1988: 4183: 3822: 3770: 3691: 3676: 3625: 3505: 3225: 3139: 2467: 2433: 2382: 901: 4789: 4598: 4506: 2849: 1971: 3826: 3734: 3699: 3695: 3365: 3270: 3229: 3143: 2569: 2531: 2493: 1569: 1427: 1414: 276: 119: 4750:

It wasn't much of a discussion, both in terms of volume and in addressing the issue. A quick Google discloses that the

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different. PATH = Georgia (both being ambiguous); stations = Interstate Highways (the alleged natural disambiguator).

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Rather redundant extra-level of categorization with sparse content and not part of any larger categorization scheme.

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to add the bus stations to the category for some reason? (I ask since other users above have supported doing that.)

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be called and are their any volunteers to manually make the change to the items in it? Incidentally, Knowledge's

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The renamed category will include diving and aquatics competitions, and will be part of a series by country, see

2106: 2078: 1934: 1906: 1808: 1780: 826: 798: 534: 506: 398: 379: 334: 229: 201: 78: 4579: 4537: 4494: 3346: 1537: 892: 123: 4623:— confusing, reads like an electric utility company name instead of a public transit company name. Regards — 4797: 3532: 3338: 2721: 1711: 1667: 1565: 1550: 1541: 1488: 1223: 1147: 1122: 1078: 984: 909: 854: 774: 419: 267: 4661: 284: 5326: 5267: 4886: 4814: 4366: 4014: 3579: 3042: 2738: 2463: 2378: 1958: 1828: 1605: 1134: 1061: 992: 947: 677: 622: 608: 460: 442: 5395: 5355: 5114: 5086: 5035: 5002: 4962: 4934: 4862: 4834: 4703: 4680: 4469: 4449: 4421: 4062: 4034: 3318: 3114: 3090: 3062: 2996: 2975: 2814: 2786: 2758: 2663: 2642: 2357: 2337: 2309: 2274: 2122: 2102: 2074: 2046: 1930: 1902: 1804: 1776: 1624: 1493: 1262: 1182: 1096: 1037: 1010: 866: 822: 794: 724: 699: 645: 550: 530: 502: 357: 245: 225: 197: 177: 150: 98: 74: 4702:

to match the main article name. No objection to a speedy rename later if the main article is renamed.

141:; these are just random style-related templates. We really need a speedy C2F for this sort of thing. 5312: 5248: 5062: 3963: 3912: 3647: 3353: 3305: 3258: 3254:

stations since NJT also operates light rail and bus stations and this category does not include them

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I would strongly caution against deleting the Russian category without input from Russian speakers.

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but the categories are at "Birmingham, West Midlands" to keep those on Birmingham, AL out of it.

1732:"This category includes articles and subcategories which specifically relate to the region of the 5144: 4793: 3672: 3543: 3528: 2957: 2717: 2592: 2421: 1741: 1723: 1680: 1663: 1649: 1515: 1506: 1410: 1028:- Southern Levant is a valid geographic region; there is an article, so there can be a category. 770: 757: 745: 665: 661: 415: 2428:. This reminds me of the issues surrounding unnecessary disambiguation on the subcategories of 5394:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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at the top, so users can quickly click on the link and find out what the topic is all about.)

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

4861:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

4532:(see discussion copied below). I propose renaming these categories to match the main article 4448:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

4174:(see discussion copied below). I propose renaming these categories to match the main article 4061:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3089:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2785:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2336:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2101:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1929:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1803:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

821:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

529:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

224:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

73:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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As above, if there's going be a change, should be the right change, which at this stage is

5376: 5308: 5278: 5244: 3960: 3908: 3643: 3574:, NJ Transit is the brand name, so the policy regarding abbreviations doesn't count here. 3301: 2617: 2600: 1878: 1737: 1733: 1727: 1715: 1573: 1479: 1431: 1418: 1405: 1383: 1322: 1309: 1218: 1214: 1126: 862: 846: 842: 5034:

is one my favorite writers). My point was that, as of today, it's not aiding navigation.

2420:(see copied discussion below). I initially nominated these so that the names would match 961:

Category describes a region containing at least the respective countries' categories and

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per nom without prejudice against recreation if more article actually come into being.

2900:

Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 February 14#Category:Fictional sociopaths

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Matches the main article and the common name. No preference on specifying "rail".

2987:

per no clear inclusion criteria, since the term is essentially meaningless today.

2273:: the explanation is that "international" is a subcat of general competitions. – 4756: 4737: 4724: 3982: 3942: 3863: 3782: 3774: 3613: 3509: 3497: 3456: 3425: 3375: 3357: 3262: 2948: 2903: 2880: 2680: 2561: 2523: 2485: 478: 3675:(NJT) operates railroad, light rail, and bus service, yet the fact is that the 2809:

currently includes some characters as well, which might need purging; the list

244:. The category's function seems to have been improved during the discussion. – 3904: 3592: 3170: 2713: 2596: 1314: 4957:

as the only active category creator and this discussion has been included in

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