Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 July 15

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pasture, where neighbouring farmers have rights of grazing, now commonly not exercised. ClemRutter is wrong in identifying them with the poor who commonly had no rights; cottagers near the common might have rights and suffered from hearing a disproportionate cost in fencing their small allotment on inclosure. Most are access land, where the public may wander. Some of the mountain moorland is common of pasture and is used as such. The metropolitan commons are in practice such the same as parks, though some are much larger than a normal "park". Common meadows (such as Lammas lands) are normally not accessible to the public: a crop of hay is taken and then the land is used for grazing by the commoners. Public open space is a third category, normally land dedicated to the public as an incident of the planning process; it has many of the characteristics of a municipal park, but is not enclosed. It might be feasible to combine many of these into "Public Open Space in foo", providing a headnote listing the various kinds of open space covered, in this case

3721::I agree that a merger of the two categories makes sense. However, I disagree with the idea of renaming it 'Clothing industry' or the underlying reasoning that the term is "used more often", because I believe that to be incorrect. People in the garment industry call it the garment industry. It may be an antiquated or less used term by the general public, but that is not the point. People in the industry also use the term haberdasher, milliner, etc. I also think the categories themselves support this. As is stated, the category clothing industry was only started some months ago, and garment industry category is 10 years old. The clothing industry category only has 3 subcategories and 7 pages, whereas garment industry has 8 subcategories and 41 pages. 1000:: A park has two specific meanings in the UK- an area of land that has been enclosed and remains for the enjoyment of one rich family, and a second meaning of a a patch of cultivated land maintained by a municipality often with ornamental gardens and recretional equipment. A common as now defined by the Commons Act 2006, is an area of communal land for the use of the commoners (the poor) with agricultural rights. Often it may be watermeadows or the tops of mountains. Then it gets very blurred, some commons in London are vestiges of their former selves, are urban parks but retain the name and the status. 6020:

women sociologists. Male sociologists, on the other hand, have been (and probably by many still are) considered the default, no more in need of a separate category than adult sociologists or human sociologists. This category only exists because some non-believer in the huge barriers still faced by academic women thought that removing any recognition for the women who have overcome those barriers by making everything equal (as if everything actually is equal now) was the way to go. It's

243:-- It is much better to allow the category name to be determined by local usage. "Public open space in foo" might be a way of providing a NPOV parent for them all. As others have said, precise splitting of these is fraught with problems as to where to draw boundaries, so that a NPOV solution is desirable, as we did when we merged cities/town/villages into populated places. I have commented in the UK cases separately (and at length). 3871: 3010:, to which the nom presumably would still object, so is this just moving the perceived problem up one level? From the discussions above it looks as though there is no fixed difference between a park and a open space (leaving aside gardens, which muddy the waters further) on which unambiguous categories could be based, so the formula "Parks and open spaces" is apparently the best solution. 5950:. "Male" is a biological term. This category relates to human society rather than to laboratory classifications. The study of society does not use the terminology of biologists any more than biologists use the terminology of sociologists. If the other categories use "male", let's fix them, rather than turn this one into another misplaced bit of biological terminology. 5091:" - Reading between the lines of your comment, I'm wondering if you intend this category to be a maintenance category (i.e. a category for pages that have a problem) for Knowledge articles that should use a more specific attribution template. If that's the case then the category name (and its text) should be changed to make that clear - however, the text at 6331:... but you do know that "attack" would legitimately cover fist attacks in pubs, cases of domestic violence, terrorist attacks, and military attacks alike? I think, we're better off to avoid that hodgepodge and have the violence category more specifically and more meaningfully subdivided, instead of creating yet another intermediate layer. -- 1503:. As explained above. The meaning is different- mainland Europe- is used solely to categorise pleasure gardens, while in the UK this category is used to categorise former common land, water meadows, flood plains and the detritus of 950 years of history. It would be nice if we could make the changes, but we can't.-- 6019:

exists because women have historically been a discriminated-against subgroup of sociologists, because diversity is something to be encouraged in sociology as everywhere else, because to get anywhere in sociology these women had to be exceptional, and because there are many reliably published works on

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did provide meaningful feedback on the various parks categories in the UK, it hasn't been entirely insensible to nominate the categories separately. With the discussion as it stands now, it may make sense to close the discussions as a keep insofar Peterkingiron clearly opposed, and a procedural close

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I don't think that there is any need to reply your specific points in any more detail because you and I clearly disagree at a fundamental level over the usage of hidden maintenance categories, it not you would have proposed its deletion not its renaming. To give one example: in reply to your point 7

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this and all the other English cases. A park is by definition enclosed, originally to keep deer or other animals in them for the benefit of a gentleman owner. A municipal park is an area created by someone for the public to enjoy. A common is by definition unenclosed. Most commons are commons of

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4. Your comment refers several times to this category being to maintain a template, but templates need little (if any) maintenance (i.e. editing of the template) so can you explain what you mean? I suspect that you see a much closer mapping between templates and categories than is actually usually

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effect of so many individual discussions at once makes it impossible to know what the outcomes would have been had participants been able to easily comment on all at once; the fact that the first discussion has many additional participants than any of the others is telling. Relisting any of these

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2. There is no rule that the name of a category populated by a template should have a name that matches the template name; there are several problems such a rule would cause (e.g. cases where several templates populate one category and/or pages can also be placed in the category directly using a

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for the same maintenance reasons. Neither category exists to list "Knowledge articles incorporating text that is in the public domain", they exist to make the maintenance of those templates easier. Using the names of the templates ties them together and easy to understand. There are two distinct

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this category makes it relatively easier to find articles where the general template is used and can be replaced with the more specific one. It is also useful to check quickly how many articles are currently using this template (which for example helps make informed decisions about whether the

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the category is not there to aid readers find a list of all Knowledge articles that contain PD text. Whether that would or would not be useful is beyond the bounds of this discussion. If it were to exist it would not be a hidden category and it would have to be added to all the PD templates in

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3. Cryptic category names may not be a problem for those who are familiar with the templates (and who realise that the category name matches a template name), but for anyone else (e.g. seeing category names at the bottom of a page or navigating the category structure) they are very unhelpful -

4984:. This is a hidden maintenance template and has been created to make it easier for editors to maintain the template and the articles which use it. The proposed rename is not valid as there many man other types of template used for incorporating text from the public domain see the category 5035:

1. Pages are normally categorized because the page has a particular characteristic (such as needing maintenance); a template is one way of putting a page into a category, but we don't normally categorize pages (specifically) because they use a (particular) template. We have very few

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for parent categories for counties, etc. In some cases, it may be appropriate to purge categories of nature reserves, cemeteries etc, so that they can be renamed to parks. However, functioning non-urban commons should probably be in a separate "common land" tree.

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category. No result relating to the template. It would be highly unusual to merge/delete a stub template without a discussion specific to that; we usually keep them and just use them to populate the parent category until they are transcluded on sufficient stubs. ~

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per nom. I'm struggling to see the difference between 'attacks' and 'violence'; it's hard to imagine a violent incident which doesn't involve anyone attacking anyone. And I'm sympathetic to PanchoS' view that 'attacks' is far too broad a category anyway.

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simply on the grounds that these dozens of individual nominations could be easily condensed into two or three discussions. Not doing so is disrespectful to us fellow participants. I therefore refuse to even contemplate, let alone deliberate the proposal.

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1071:-- The above was written before I considered all the cases. I started by opposing them all, but have now considered all or most piecemeal. Sometimes "parks" is the right answer; sometimes not. Accordingly, my responses are mixed. I would recommend 6041:

This category exists because some editors want to ignore the clear guidelines on why gender specific categories are created and instead impose a different one. From a historical perspective women are a notable sub-group within sociology, men are

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may be sensible (although no "Commons" tree exists as yet) as, at least in England, there is a clear definition of a common to work with (although they can later be emparked, engardened and so on), but the parent category is

1096:'s approach is sensible. Almost everywhere has parks, and parks in the UK seem very like parks in other countries. There is no compelling reason to put all the other sorts of public space into the same categories. 6267:, etc. The attacks twig in this tree is not helpful. It may be of some use in US for dealing with high school massacres and the recent police shootings there, so that the categoiries might be directly in is 5046:

is populated by {{Hndis}} (and {{disambiguation|hn}} etc). Many categories have been renamed at CFD from cryptic names typically used for templates to more meaningful names typically used for categories

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That's apparently a misunderstanding. You should start with one individually and then add the others manually in the same section. There isn't any tool for that, it's just 50 times copy, paste, edit. See

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your "alternatively" suggestion. It is something that the text in the category explains so there is no need to expand the title of the category. Also as an aside why capitalise the "T" in template? --

6271:: they are mercifully rare, though of course atrocious. I do not see any need to defer including the Nice attack somewhere, though its context is not yet wholly clear, and perhaps may never be. 5425: 490: 5249:

The reason this category is useful is because the template that places a page into it is a general purpose one. If someone creates a more specific one similar to the scores of them in

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Some places in England which are called Gardens are really parks. Trying to define the differences between parks, open spaces, woodlands, and gardens seems an unrealistic enterprise.

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for reasons given under York above. IN this case, I doubt whether the racecourse is either a park or a common. I am not clear why there are do many redirects in this category.

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Clearer category title (with wording based on the text on the category page). In particular, the rename would make it clearer that this is not for articles about the topic of

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Deletion of this category could also be considered (it's not clear to me that there's any purpose in grouping these articles together). Another option would be an upmerge to

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As he header of the category already said (and I have just altered it to make it more specific), the article in the category are there because they include the template

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We normally try to make category names meaningful/clear (do you have any reason why this category should be an exception?). Regarding the capital "T" - the template is

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per nom, generally prefer the second option, and besides the second option has the additional advantage of avoiding the Victorian problem that Peterkingiron mentioned.

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Tasmania society is not current usage (Tasmania'n' would have been ok) - the parent cat specifically incorporated the possessive 'n' (Australia'n') - if Australia

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first option. The use of a demonym works well (except Victoria), but the second would also do. I do not like applying the US practice to another country.

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You will find that I have responded to all the subsequent UK cases. Sometimes, I have followed my suggestion; sometimes not. My second comment was written

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proposing deletion here, because it would be better to consider deletion in a standalone discussion explicitly tagged as a deletion or merger proposal. --

3214: 5421: 4243:. But I've no objection to changing the format for the Australian ones if something else is preferred, as long as redirects are kept. We do also have 5508: 5186:" - there have only been 3 edits to that template since 2010 (and at least 2 of those edits had nothing to do with what articles use the template). 5043: 4586: 4563: 2317: 1236: 550: 188:

exception. On the other hand, articles in non-English speaking countries that have the title "garden" in their name are actually about parks, e.g.

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Would you like to reply directly to any/all of the points (1-7) I've made? And, as I said, I'd particularly like you to explain what you mean by "

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nomination (preferably split between those that only have parks and all others), although I somewhat doubt those nominations would succeed. ~

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created a red link and was populated. Is the template a wrong idea? If so, delete both. Or reformulate the template to put the articles into

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is the correct collective term for this form of open land. Each authority is different- some will have no commons, but for wiki-consistency

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5. Category names don't need to match template names to tie them together - categories and templates can (and many do) refer to each other.

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Very few of these categories contain any articles that are not about parks. There is no real reason to put parks and gardens together.

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I disagree with your arguments, and presumably you do to, or you would be suggesting deleting the category not changing its name. --

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This ... category includes Knowledge articles incorporating some text in the public domain which are not in a more specific category.

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I've just noticed User:Clemrutter making above the same point better about the whole of England, but will let my comment here stand.

1160: 5291:" so have struck my suggestion to consider deletion and instead proposed an alternative rename that is a better fit to that usage. 4710: 4536: 4312: 4285:

It is not a "US practice". As noted, when I created them I simply used the same format that was used for the US and Canada. Absent

4248: 6228:, I don't see how this would turn helpful for the case of France, given our limited coverage of non-terrorist crimes in France. -- 2221: 1850: 494: 5437: 5289:

this category makes it ... easier to find articles where the general template is used and can be replaced with more specific one

5863:. Just a historical note, in case this discussion verges into deletion proposals. In 2013, the category was deleted after a CFD 6179: 5952:

BTW, I believe that this category should be deleted/upmerged, because both the CFD and DRV in 2013 ignored policy ... but I am

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for reasons as in York case above. Brockholes is a nature reserve, not a park or a common; possibly "public open space".

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issues, there is not a lot of justification for changing a format solely to be different than how the US one is named!

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York is unusual among cities in having commons. But there is no real imperative to put the two in the same category.

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6 articles in permanent category. Stub category not needed. Propose deleting category and upmerging template to

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This category exists to support editors make informed decisions about ... how to improve in light of its usage.

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6 total articles in permanent category. Stub category not necessary. Delete category and upmerge template to

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I was told I should nominate them individually. I'm afraid I don't know how to tackle a collective discussion.

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would be inappropriate, as it would overwhelm the CSD process. No prejudice against a speedy renomination as a

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I don't know if at this point we really need this kind of intermediate categories, but while it seems to work

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follow the "Society in FOO" format. Did you mean to say "on condition that" rather than "on the basis that"?

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In respect for the victims of the atrocity in Nice, any action should be put on hold for several months. --

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is that-a-way for the template. Typically, stub templates are upmerged rather than deleted, though. ~

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Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 August 21#Category:Celebrity Big Brother (UK) contestants

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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and serves no useful purpose as a defining characteristic of its subjects, and it should go. —

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If it gets deleted (or merged to a broader sociologists category) I don't oppose that result.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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unless someone can explain how this category can be useful (if not deleted, rename per nom).

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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all these. I agree with the nom that the grouping of articles is not ideal but there is also

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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per nom. Note that the alternative of Peterkingiron has the same effect as the nomination.

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category tag) and there are many, many categories that do not follow such a "rule" - e.g.

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The template isn't up for deletion (I'd support deleting it and upmerging) but as of now,

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especially where the category structure has a mix of meaningful names and cryptic names.

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It is also useful to check quickly how many articles are currently using this template

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which lists 235 such templates. The category under discussion is only used by the

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yes, "on condition that" the aforementioned categories follow the same format of

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Category:Knowledge articles incorporating some text that is in the public domain

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can be used, states ending in 'a' should have the same for consistency of usage

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as Victorian also refers to a historical period; the first format is clumsy.

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per comments BrownHairedGirl - noting comments by Good Olfactory - (there is

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retarget the template to the Asian category and deleting this empty category.

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Every other category of men by occupation uses "male". This one should too.

5168:" is make informed decisions on how to improve it in light of its usage. -- 2764:-- They are all parks. I am not sure that "common" is a Scottish concept. 6126: