1765:
to do with their political context or not. I absolutely grant that this belongs on
Presidents of the United States and the Soviet Union and West and East Germany — but there are many people in here whose inclusion is actually dubious at best: Presidents of Japan, Prime Ministers of Canada, Presidents
1432:
i.e. rename the Ely, Southwark and
Winchester categories, but keep the remainder as they are. The first three are missing a parent category and there isn't really enough content to support an additional step in the category tree. Evidently the categories contained in these three would need adding to
1180:
These categories exist primarily to group together subcategories for religious officials and dead people buried there. In other words, the only thing they have in common is the
Cathedral so it makes sense to group them directly there. (General association categories are rarely a good idea and have
486:
are a motley collection with nothing obvious in common. The category of "Association" is not defining. If someone thinks that there is a distinction in meaning between a club, a society and an association, can they please enlighten us? The OED defines each in terms of the others. And regardless
1545:
studied, built, restored, the building, those who wrote books (tourist pamphlets or otherwise) about the place, everyone whose work of fiction had something to do with the place (much like tagging Dan Brown being associated with the Louvre because scenes from his book take place there). No thanks!
1454:. If one was writing a book about Foobar Cathedral one might have a chapter titled "Cathedral staff" and another chapter titled "Burials at the cathedral", but you wouldn't lump them together in a "People associated with the cathedral" chapter - it's not a coherent topic. This categorization puts
1544:
association with a cathedral runs the gamut of groundskeeper, parishioner, every priest or deacon or canon who ever officiated there, every bishop whose cathedral it was, the concertmaster, the choirmaster, choir members, those who sang songs about the cathedral, everyone buried there, those who
1579:
It seems a somewhat fallacious argument, because someone who had a very brief connection (a visit) would not qualify in any meaningful sense as 'being associated'. Cathedral bishops, canons, choirmasters, organists, even the sexton or groundsman (assuming they met WP:GNG) of the cathedral would
1625:
As the nominator, I think the latter is the best solution of all. So for each of them upmerge the
Bishops, Burials and Deans subcategories to the Cathedral parent category; upmerge the Bishops and Deans subcategories to the "People from" parent category; but delete the single articles from the
1414:
was prior and might have been placed in the deans category or a new priors category: the bishop was probably the notional abbot, if it was anything like
Worcester. We might additionally have a category for canons, but they are not necessarily "from Winchester" since most will not be canons
402:
The headnote for the category says "This category is for associations in an informal sense, in that any non-profit group which has not incorporated may be thought of as an association." Many of the subcategories do not fit that definition at all. In particular the only entry in most of the
1756:
issue. I can see the value of this category for certain people — however, as actually constituted it's taken a sharp left turn toward inclusion of anybody at all who happened to serve as a national head of state or government in any country at all during that particular time period,
1319:
I really don't mind the
Associated With categories as much if they are grouping well-defined subcategories, i.e. they are container categories, although I still don't favor them. Many--but not all--of the articles that are "loose" under the
1911:
It seems to be a subjective category with a large scope and no supporting sources. Basically any leader on the planet between 1945 and 1991 can be categorized as a "Cold War leader". I doubt this is particularly defining or can be sourced.
548:
says "This category is for associations in an informal sense, in that any non-profit group which has not incorporated may be thought of as an association." Many of the professional associations are incorporated, so don't belong
1815:: Just wanted to add a clarification, since so far this has attracted delete votes even though I only proposed a content purge: I don't actually have any objection to total deletion, if that's where consensus lands — I actually
1518:
You make a fair point that burials at-categories shouldn't be merged to people-from categories. If this becomes too complex for the closer, I'll just delist the burials categories manually after the closing of this discussion.
1278:
183:
763:
per nom. It's pretty arbitrary to determine at what point a person is "tall," not to mention any definition is likely to be culturally biased (is "tall" in
Germany the same as "tall" in Japan?)
1393:
Grouping biographical articles under a cathedral category will not aid navigation. I would not mind removing some of the very loosely associated articles, but the merge will not help anything.
1609:
these categories may have good subcats. OCASSOC does point out that specific groups which are associated re legit categories, it's just that the broad "associated with" which is a problem.
1158:
42:
37:
1840:. I like the fact that you didn't immediately say "delete", and instead looked for a way to make the categ viable. However, I am not persuaded that there is any viable halfway house. --
464:
Nomination provides invalid information. Many, if not most, of the articles do not include association in their name. This category and its subcats are not based on common name.
1499:
I note you didn't respond to my main point. The burials-at category is currently in the people-from category so an upmerge wouldn't make that categorization any worse. Perhaps
1283:
As Oculi points out, the only effect of this nomination will be to drive down loosely-associated people to a similar categ with a different name. What's the gain? And why has
1202:– why on earth would we object to a loose association of people with a cathedral and then merge them to an even looser association of anything at all with the same cathedral? (
1953:- I've seen this on too many historical figures who played nearly no role in the Cold War whatsoever. We don't have World War II leaders for all leaders during 1939 to 1945.
1321:
1274:
1284:
1246:
That's right, but people with a too vague connection will be purged anyway, now or some time later. For now, I focused the nomination on actions for whole categories.
403:
geographical subcategories relate to professional associations, which are far from informal, and often statutory. But the central concept is a complete overlap with
407:, of which it is a subcategory. It has no defining feature except the use of the word "Association" in the title. Rathfelder (talk) 10:29, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
114:
1346:. At the previous discussion I suggested containerising these ones. So I don't understand why you don't mind the university assoc cats, but do mind these ine. --
883:
Could you please keep category discussions in a consistent format, so that not two discussions are mingled in one section? I've reformatted it now already.
220:
143:
505:
You know why almost all of these categories contain only the professional associations subcategory? It's because you almost systematically emptied out the
216:
147:
21:
1293:
of he person concerned, something to be mentioned in a short potted bio - burial at a cathedral is a notable honour, reserved for a privileged few. --
1289:
I don't see the conceptual problem in grouping the burials with the office-holders. In most instances of either relationship, the association will be
899:
I'm afraid I find this procedure very difficult to use. I wasn't aware that I had mixed up two discussions. I was trying to follow the instructions.
1455:
1042:
852:
110:
954:
17:
1896:
1852:
1368:
For both the cathedral and university examples, I favor deletion over keeping. If kept though, I favor containerizing. Sorry I wasn't clear.
1358:
1305:
1224:
That's a valid question. Based on the prior discussion, only the well-defined subcategories were being kept not the rag tag loose articles. (
1079:
649:
1123:
1139:
1099:
1087:
270:
per nom; any writer may bestow any award on any of his or her characters, it has no meaning compared to the real people who earned them.
1564:
744:: "Adjectives which imply a subjective or inherently non-neutral inclusion criterion should not be used in naming/defining a category."—
1071:
1111:
835:
to 3 parent categories, without prejudice to creating a new category for Europe if similar groups exist in other
European countries.
223:
which makes me doubt that the merge is the right way to go. However, if there is a consensus for the merge then that is fine by me.
1059:
1970:
not useful given the subjectivity and tendency for it to be populated with people for whom the Cold War wasn't defining. Cheers,
1434:
1478:
1459:
1131:
1503:
would consider adding a note to the nomination saying not to upmerge the burials-at categories to the people-from categories.
426:– I would suggest changing the headnote if it offends, rather than a proposal which leaves adrift a host of subcats such as
1103:
1127:
935:
To all 3 parent categories per
RevelationDirect's suggestion. This is a category of one and the topic seems very narrow.
215:
might be the better way to go. Another item springs to mind - the documentation for the cat makes no distinction between
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Usually when a mediocre writer wants to let you know someone is a war hero, they mention in passing that they won the
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per nom. It is too small a cat, and the DSC would not usually indicate notability for a real person (on its own) per
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that there's a legitimate case to be made for outright deletion, it just wasn't the argument that I was
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1653:
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almost all only contain the category of professional associations. The articles which are in the main
204:
133:
1410:
to the
Cathedral categories only. I looked at the Winchester case. The associates are all genuine.
718:
1958:
1885:
1841:
1613:
1347:
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904:
867:
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article. Again, I'm not proposing that the entire category be deleted outright — but it needs to be
1270:
1154:
296:
125:
1937:
1602:
1546:
680:
271:
228:
918:
To all 3 parent categories with no objection to recreating if the article count grows to 5 or so.
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1917:
1416:
1398:
940:
768:
452:
254:
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177:
1994:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
1971:
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1803:
1652:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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1520:
1500:
1247:
1227:
1162:
985:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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884:
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
749:
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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323:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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video games, and that article makes no mention of the award so it must not be too defining. -
94:
1786:
of anybody whose article doesn't actually contain any content that makes it explicitly clear
1680:
Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
1013:
Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
815:
Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
620:
601:
Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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which use the format "Foo College people" -- same scope, without the word "associated".
1411:
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139:
1601:, after checking for subcats which should be moved up. I agree with the point made by
1913:
1394:
936:
764:
519:
448:
240:
1206:
is clearly defined by his association with the cathedral, if you read the article.)
1872:
1824:
1799:
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745:
527:
633:
which has been specifically deprecated since the overcategorization guideline was
1606:
1573:
1505:
1464:
523:
465:
447:
The headnote will have to change, but an association is not a club of any kind.
1752:
Just to clarify up front, this is not a total deletion argument, but rather a
1701:
1581:
1563:
A straight delete (rather than the proposed merge) would, for example, remove
1482:
1438:
1207:
515:
431:
430:. Not all clubs are associations, so it looks like a legitimate subcat to me.
155:
1884:
This sort of material is much better handled as a list, or as an article. --
1766:
of Rhodesia, and many other people for whom the category declaration itself
1674:
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
1324:
either belong in a subcategory or only arguable defined by the university.
1007:
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
809:
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
595:
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
345:
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
67:
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
1933:
1273:
is out-of-date, and does not reflect actual practise. See for example
637:. There is no point in wasting editors time with further discussion. --
207:
problems. The fact that the only article currently in the cat violates
146:
is well populated. In contrast, it's rare to claim characters won the
253:
Never should have been made in the first place, upmerge or delete.--
1277:, which has 90 "associated" subcats, or the hundreds of subcats of
182:
as the category creator and this discussion has been included in
1462:("for people born or who have lived in...") which is incorrect.
1477:
The last point is true, so why are you supporting a merge to
239:
per nom. Very small category on a possibly non-notable award.
1279:
Category:People by university or college in the United States
1988:
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
1646:
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
979:
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
853:
Category:Immigration political advocacy groups in Germany
802:
Category:Immigration political advocacy groups in Germany
781:
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
567:
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
317:
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
111:
Category:Fictional Distinguished Service Cross recipients
60:
Category:Fictional Distinguished Service Cross recipients
955:
Category:Immigration political advocacy groups in Europe
1738:
1734:
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726:
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688:
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1124:
Category:People associated with Winchester Cathedral‎
1140:
Category:People associated with Worcester Cathedral‎
1100:
Category:People associated with St Paul's Cathedral‎
1088:
Category:People associated with Southwark Cathedral‎
2002:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1688:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1660:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1322:
Category:People by university or college in England
1275:
Category:People by university or college in England
1021:). No further edits should be made to this section.
993:). No further edits should be made to this section.
823:). No further edits should be made to this section.
795:). No further edits should be made to this section.
609:). No further edits should be made to this section.
581:). No further edits should be made to this section.
487:
of what we think it is clear that it is misleading.
359:). No further edits should be made to this section.
331:). No further edits should be made to this section.
81:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1072:Category:People associated with Lincoln Cathedral‎
211:, since it lacks sourcing, leads me to think that
1794:to do with the Cold War besides a coincidence of
1285:Category:People associated with Westminster Abbey
1875:. Any attempt to set a threshold will be either
1112:Category:People associated with Wells Cathedral‎
629:because "tall people" is one of the archetypal
1060:Category:People associated with Ely Cathedral‎
949:As the creator, I propose expanding scope and
115:Category:Fictional American military personnel
8:
221:Distinguished Service Cross (United Kingdom)
144:Category:Fictional Medal of Honor recipients
217:Distinguished Service Cross (United States)
184:WikiProject Orders, decorations, and medals
1435:Category:People associated with cathedrals
1580:definitely be associated in a major way.
18:Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion
1456:Category:Burials at Winchester Cathedral
150:. The only article in the category is
1343:
1181:also attracted some oddball articles (
1151:Nominator's rationale: merge or rename
1823:prepared to formulate in the moment.
1080:Category:People from Lincoln, England
7:
1774:appearance of the words "Cold War"
1565:Category:Burials at Wells Cathedral
1344:grouping well-defined subcategories
544:The headnote for the main category
1287:been omitted from this nomination?
148:second highest U.S. military award
28:
1695:The result of the discussion was:
1035:delete with selective merge/purge
1028:The result of the discussion was:
1000:People associated with cathedrals
830:The result of the discussion was:
616:The result of the discussion was:
366:The result of the discussion was:
88:The result of the discussion was:
1033:Ely, Southwark & Worcester;
480:Category:Associations by country
428:Category:Associations by country
1479:Category:People from Winchester
1460:Category:People from Winchester
1132:Category:People from Winchester
1037:of the contents of them all. –
478:There are 36 subcategories in
1:
1232:Or did I misinterpret that?)
1128:Category:Winchester Cathedral
30:
1980:10:16, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
1963:05:15, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
1946:19:05, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
1922:17:41, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1902:07:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1858:01:26, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
1833:19:38, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1808:01:22, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1790:the person's leadership had
1761:of whether the Cold War had
1705:12:24, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
1617:15:46, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
1590:18:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
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1447:20:04, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1425:18:40, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1403:17:37, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1378:18:54, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1364:17:58, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1342:, these categories also are
1334:17:14, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1311:16:34, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1256:19:45, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1242:17:14, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1216:15:04, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1195:13:15, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1171:07:40, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
1144:Category:Worcester Cathedral
1104:Category:St Paul's Cathedral
1092:Category:Southwark Cathedral
971:02:02, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
945:17:33, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
928:13:02, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
909:12:28, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
893:12:24, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
872:10:30, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
845:21:31, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
773:15:18, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
754:10:31, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
655:16:16, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
625:. Closing this promptly per
559:00:09, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
536:01:57, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
497:11:13, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
474:04:23, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
457:17:31, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
440:15:08, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
417:10:55, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
405:Category:Clubs and societies
393:Category:Clubs and societies
381:18:14, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
309:10:14, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
280:18:59, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
263:18:25, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
249:17:30, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
232:16:56, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
196:16:01, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
168:16:01, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
103:13:44, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
1571:. Is that what you intend?
514:per the arguments given by
2019:
1636:23:30, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
1161:which has been withdrawn.
1076:Category:Lincoln Cathedral
957:. Otherwise I'm okay with
1714:Category:Cold War leaders
1667:Category:Cold War leaders
1157:. This is a follow-up on
1052:06:48, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
1991:Please do not modify it.
1932:. Best to cover this in
1677:Please do not modify it.
1649:Please do not modify it.
1605:, but as pointed out by
1569:Category:Wells Cathedral
1116:Category:Wells Cathedral
1010:Please do not modify it.
982:Please do not modify it.
812:Please do not modify it.
784:Please do not modify it.
598:Please do not modify it.
570:Please do not modify it.
348:Please do not modify it.
320:Please do not modify it.
70:Please do not modify it.
1877:arbitrary or subjective
203:The cat definitely has
154:, a character from the
1750:Nominator's rationale:
1204:William Walker (diver)
1064:Category:Ely Cathedral
860:Nominator's rationale:
738:Nominator's rationale:
400:Nominator's rationale:
142:when you meet them so
122:Nominator's rationale:
546:category:Associations
507:Category:Associations
484:Category:Associations
389:Category:Associations
338:Category:Associations
1976:click to talk to me
702:Category:Tall women
305:click to talk to me
108:Propose Upmerginng
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664:Category:Tall men
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1871:. Good catch,
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1430:Partial support
1415:residentiary.
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1159:this discussion
1121:Propose merging
1097:Propose merging
1069:Propose merging
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961:'s proposal. --
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1972:Peacemaker67
1967:
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1821:rhetorically
1820:
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1795:
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1648:
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1628:Marcocapelle
1598:
1572:
1541:
1521:Marcocapelle
1504:
1501:Marcocapelle
1463:
1451:
1429:
1407:
1390:
1266:
1248:Marcocapelle
1228:Marcocapelle
1199:
1177:
1163:Marcocapelle
1150:
1136:
1120:
1108:
1096:
1084:
1068:
1056:
1041:
1034:
1030:
1027:
1009:
1006:
981:
978:
950:
932:
915:
885:Marcocapelle
862:WP:SMALLCAT
859:
849:
837:Marcocapelle
832:
829:
811:
808:
783:
780:
760:
737:
697:
659:
618:
615:
597:
594:
569:
566:
511:
461:
444:
423:
399:
385:
373:Marcocapelle
368:
365:
347:
344:
319:
316:
301:Peacemaker67
288:
284:
267:
236:
212:
178:
173:
121:
107:
95:Marcocapelle
90:
87:
69:
66:
1291:WP:DEFINING
619:delete and
588:Tall people
205:WP:SMALLCAT
176:: Notified
134:WP:SMALLCAT
1955:Jackninja5
1889:HairedGirl
1845:HairedGirl
1759:regardless
1626:category.
1614:Od Mishehu
1599:Delete all
1542:Delete all
1351:HairedGirl
1298:HairedGirl
1271:WP:OCASSOC
1155:WP:OCASSOC
901:Rathfelder
879:Rathfelder
864:Rathfelder
642:HairedGirl
551:Rathfelder
489:Rathfelder
409:Rathfelder
299:. Cheers,
297:WP:SOLDIER
156:Metal Gear
126:WP:OCAWARD
55:January 24
43:January 25
38:January 23
1996:talk page
1682:talk page
1654:talk page
1611:עוד מישהו
1039:Fayenatic
1015:talk page
987:talk page
817:talk page
789:talk page
603:talk page
575:talk page
353:talk page
325:talk page
225:MarnetteD
209:WP:CATDEF
75:talk page
1998:or in a
1934:Cold War
1914:Dimadick
1897:contribs
1853:contribs
1792:anything
1776:anywhere
1763:anything
1684:or in a
1656:or in a
1395:Dimadick
1359:contribs
1306:contribs
1267:Keep all
1017:or in a
989:or in a
951:renaming
937:Dimadick
819:or in a
791:or in a
765:Rikster2
650:contribs
605:or in a
577:or in a
520:Dimadick
449:Dimadick
355:or in a
327:or in a
241:Dimadick
213:deletion
179:Smijes08
152:Big Boss
77:or in a
20: |
1873:Bearcat
1825:Bearcat
1800:Bearcat
1778:in the
1727:history
1452:Support
1437:et al.
1183:example
1178:Support
963:PanchoS
933:Upmerge
916:Upmerge
833:upmerge
746:Bagumba
715:history
677:history
528:PanchoS
285:Upmerge
237:Upmerge
91:upmerge
1968:Delete
1951:Delete
1927:Delete
1909:Delete
1893:(talk)
1869:Delete
1849:(talk)
1813:Update
1796:timing
1784:purged
1780:entire
1698:delete
1607:DexDor
1574:DexDor
1506:DexDor
1465:DexDor
1458:below
1391:Oppose
1355:(talk)
1302:(talk)
1200:Oppose
1031:rename
761:Delete
646:(talk)
627:WP:IAR
524:Hmains
466:Hmains
445:Oppose
424:Oppose
293:WP:GNG
289:Delete
132:) and
1887:Brown
1843:Brown
1838:Reply
1817:agree
1754:purge
1735:watch
1731:links
1702:MER-C
1582:Sionk
1567:from
1483:Oculi
1439:Sionk
1408:Merge
1349:Brown
1296:Brown
1208:Oculi
1049:ondon
723:watch
719:links
685:watch
681:links
640:Brown
549:here.
516:Oculi
509:tree.
432:Oculi
268:Merge
46:: -->
16:<
1959:talk
1942:talk
1918:talk
1829:talk
1804:talk
1772:only
1770:the
1739:logs
1723:talk
1719:edit
1632:talk
1586:talk
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1525:talk
1487:talk
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1421:talk
1399:talk
1374:talk
1330:talk
1252:talk
1238:talk
1212:talk
1191:talk
1167:talk
1153:per
1130:and
1078:and
967:talk
941:talk
924:talk
905:talk
889:talk
868:talk
841:talk
769:talk
750:talk
740:Per
727:logs
711:talk
707:edit
689:logs
673:talk
669:edit
623:both
621:salt
555:talk
532:talk
526:. --
522:and
512:Keep
493:talk
470:talk
462:keep
453:talk
436:talk
413:talk
377:talk
369:keep
295:and
276:talk
259:talk
245:talk
229:Talk
219:and
192:talk
186:. –
174:Note
164:talk
124:Per
99:talk
35:<
1895:• (
1851:• (
1788:how
1357:• (
1304:• (
1185:).
1142:to
1126:to
1114:to
1102:to
1090:to
1074:to
1062:to
953:to
648:• (
391:to
287:or
113:to
22:Log
1978:)
1961:)
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1936:.
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1798:.
1768:is
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