757:
rare cases) have much to do with the individuals future career, most Former
Redcoats within WP have gone on to do comparable jobs to a far more notable level. However the fact that there is a wealth of reliable secondary sources for each of these individuals identifying them as Redcoats is proof in itself how notable the job and the people who do it are to the British Public - even if that notability is not understood or accepted internationally. I agree with the idea that being a Redcoat can be a gateway, however I disagree profusely with the idea that it is
1549:- Might be useful if this was restricted to other Wikimedia sites (such as commons, Wikibooks, etc.), but the lone user in this category appears to be a bureaucrat on a completely unrelated Wiki. Nothing to stop someone from creating their own wiki, promoting themselves to bureaucrat, and then joining this category. Thus, it isn't particularly useful for any purpose I can think of for improving the encyclopedia.
960:
be easy to dismiss them as biased - these are articles about the notable individual's life and they still define the individual by this former profession. I have made this argument since the start, yet you choose to dismiss me as not understanding this distinction, this Job is a notable one in UK culture and because of that we do define those who have carried out the job by it.
409:. I don't find the floating adjective problematic in a title, and I like keeping category names short. The addition of the word "topics" seems to me to add no clarification to the reader, so the extra verbiage just creates clutter in the category list of articles. However, if the rename does go ahead, please re-create the existing title as a redirect. --
2476:. I believe this is a defining characteristic of these songs since in the minds of the audience this fact will always be closely associated with the tune, and emotions and associations are very significant aspects when it comes to music. I'm more uncertain about the option of listifying though, but for now I'm voting simply to keep. __
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here, not sources that make an offhand trivial comment about the person's past or biography and 7 of these are clearly reliable sources that define these individuals by their former profession. For the sake of argument I haven't even included articles which directly relate to
Butlins because it would
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This is not about categorisation by any factoid, it is about categorisation by notable profession, and these individuals are regularly cited as notably having been in that profession. The level of notability is high enough that a decent Head
Article could probably be written from it though reasonably
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But many songs are specially created and launched to catch that market that don't reach number one, and songs that aren't created to catch that market can still reach number one. Thus, there is nothing specifically defining about a
Christmas number one. If it is defining to some, it's definitely not
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per Philip
Stevens, this is a defining characteristic of many if not all of these songs. In recent years particularly with the XFactor dominating the number 1 spot the second and third spot have become more notable per ONaNcle (though no1's before this such as "Mad World" were equally contentious.);
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though I wish we were delivered from having these churned out as musAc in all the shops just before
Christmas. The alternative might be to regard this as an award catefgory, which we should listify and delete. One characteristic is that they are Christmas-related and normally drop out of the chart
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the person is notable? In this case, I cannot but conclude that it is not. If it's notable, then write an article and include them in the list. But unless it's defining for those included, we don't create a category for it. It sounds like there's a basic misunderstanding of this point. No commenters
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This category provides interesting common trait of the individuals listed in it. Whether or not these individuals are notable because of having been a
Redcoat doesn't, to my mind, have any bearing on whether this category should exist. (The argument about alumni categories seems pertinent--in some
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I think that's a good argument for including the details of someone having this job in their bio article on WP, but not one for having a category for it. Many things are verifiable and possibly even notable and influential, but categories are generally used for features that are central and defining
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Would you then consider all
University Alumni Categories requiring deletion, or does the fact that the individual attends a notable college whose notability is relevant to their own notability make it a reasonable keep? Whilst Former Lifeguard and U.S. Senate Pages do not (except in exceptionally
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I don't know about elsewhere, but in the UK the singles market rises hugely at
Christmas, & a large number of these were specially created & launched to catch that market. There's no "just happen" about it. Quite a large number are specifically Christmas-related, & many others are
704:
but anyone who draws on previous experience such as stand up comedy will often notably raise their previous career as a redcoat. Equally these individuals are regularly cited in the press every time
Redcoats and/or Butlins is discussed and uses them to define the role. Sometimes sources will
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One defining trait per WP:CAT is "notable profession", which has been my argument all along. It is defining as I have already demonstrated, these individuals are regularly defined by this notable former profession even when they may have done something more notable in their later life i.e;
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So because I'm a Canadian national, I can't be interesting in anything in WP that has to do with "European matters"? Slightly provincial, no? But then again, I guess so too is "Christmas number-two singles in the UK", so it makes sense.
2493:â not sure about this - in the UK it used to be whatever happened to be #1 but these days it is Simon Cowell's choice (or anti-SC choice). Either way, it is now a big and highly publicised deal. (Eg is this a defining characteristic of
2187:(i.e. changed "former" to formerly") to avoid confusion with defunct companies. This category should classify companies that have now been privatized. If they are also defunct that should thus be categorized independently. __
2665:;-))) How someone like you living in Canada keeps worrying about an entry about European matters??? I've been curious to follow end-November and December charts since the Beatles years to know who will get in the
2453:. I realize that there is some honor to having the number-one song in UK at Christmas, but that is a non-defining characteristic of the song. They just happen to be #1 at this time of year. I think the list at
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These aren't Christmas-related songs, but pop songs that just happen to be number one over the Christmas holiday in the UK. I think the list for this case is great, but defining to each song? I don't see it.
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It doesn't? So it's OK for categories to exist that categorizes by any factoid about a person, as long as it is true and, as you put it, subjectively "interesting"? This seems highly problematic to me.
2555:. This is notable, but not defining. The comments above seem to me to be more appropriate for a discussion of whether such a list would exist, not whether we should categorize based on this feature.
1978:
per standard naming conventions of Wikiproject categories (personally I slightly prefer "Wikiproject Table Tennis participants, but the userbox says members, so thought it best to stick with that).
2567:
per meco. It is often defining, as news articles talking about a given song often say "it was a Christmas No. 1 in...". In other words, the song is defined by the fact it was a Christmas No. 1. --
1672:- Linked to a userbox stating "This user is proud of the Islamic Republic of Iran". Does not help Knowledge (XXG) to categorize users who are proud of particular countries; no encyclopedic value.
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I nominate these categories for renaming. I'm not enough of an expert in English to be sure that what I am proposing is the correct solution, so I'm hoping for corrections if warranted. __
1426:, so keeping this would allow a "who contribute to" category for every other non-notable Wiki out there. Since there is no article on this, it can't possibly facilitate collaboration.
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per Stuart.Jamieson. Being a former Redcoat indicates the sort of entertainer they are and indicates the influence of Butlins within the British entertainment industry.
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which I agree is ambiguous. I'm not sure about 'Formerly municipally owned' as it appears to be overly adverbed. Ex-municipal?
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they were a Butlins Redcoat. It's more of an interesting factoid about a previous job held by a person, somewhat like
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746:"Becoming a Redcoat is seen as a way into show business, although this is less prevalent in more recent years."
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2614:. As currently defined -- songs that just happen to be #1 on Dec. 25 -- it's trivial and non-defining.
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It doesn't have a wonderful sound to it, but it is very straightforward. I'm wondering though whether
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they were Butlins Redcoats. They are notable for some other reason. The job itself most certainly
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2791:: for many of the songs listed (those of Slade, Cliff Richard, etc., maybe even Mr Blobby), this
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Nominator is nominally correct, but I don't see a significant issue with it remaining as is. __
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ways, these individuals are "alumni" of Butlins--although I expect someone will cry
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style#Category names with hyphens misused after "ly"
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an important defining characteristic. (At least, it was when I was young...) --
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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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How about considering an approach that might address both problems? Would
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2756:. It is peculiar, but UK Christmas #1 single is notable and defining. --
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similarly identify the individuals redcoat status as notable for instance
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per standard naming conventions of using "Wikipedians" and not "Users".
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in this discussion have exhibited an understanding of the distinction.
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specifically identifies him by the term "the former Butlins Redcoat".
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would cover it with a re-writing of the Notable Redcoats section.
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Category:Wikipedians using the service awards template incorrectly
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Category:Wikipedians using the service awards template incorrectly
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Category:Wikipedians using the service award template incorrectly
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Category:Companies formerly owned by municipalities of England
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Category:Companies of Norway formerly owned by municipalities
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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2010 October 23
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Category:Wikipedians who are Bureaucrats on other wiki sites
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Category:Wikipedians who are Bureaucrats on other wiki sites
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Category:Christmas number-one singles in the United Kingdom
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Category:Christmas number-one singles in the United Kingdom
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Category:Users using the service award template incorrectly
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Category:Users using the service award template incorrectly
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Category:Municipally owned companies of the United Kingdom
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
666:. These people are not notable for reason of having been
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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per Peterkingiron ; it could also be renamed to include
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and retain. The list remains for the number 1 spot.
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for a person. The fact remains that these people are
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be said to be a kind of gateway job, as the article
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2774:"novelty" songs that do well at this time of year.
2594:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
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2332:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
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Category:Former municipal owned companies of Norway
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775:Yes, I would. It's an argument I've long pursued.
2102:Category:Municipally owned companies of Scotland
794:has been notified of this discussion by myself.
2669:and it remains so important forty years later--
2093:Category:Municipally owned companies of England
134:. Suggest renaming to match article for party,
2207:â this is part of a wider problem as there is
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2133:Category:Municipally-owned companies of Canada
2098:Category:Municipal owned companies of Scotland
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761:a gateway having little notability otherwise.
267:Overseas departments and territories of France
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8:
2515:completely immediately after the festival.
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2107:Category:Municipal owned companies of Wales
1815:per VegaDark and because templates name is
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516:as the parent article of this category is
2695:List of Christmas number one singles (UK)
2455:List of Christmas number one singles (UK)
1975:Category:WikiProject Table Tennis members
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1207:Category:Wikipedians who like Mr. Trololo
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1003:Category:Defunct airlines of East Germany
382:Instead of having a floating adjective. â
18:Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion
2737:Category:Christmas hit singles in the UK
2497:? It probably is, regrettably perhaps.)
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89:Category:Wales Labour Party politicians
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1973:Nominator's rationale - Rename to
1789:Nominator's rationale - Rename to
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2287:would be the best preposition. __
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2119:With reference to discussion at
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2495:Hallelujah (Leonard Cohen song)
2701:much more helpful for that? --
2525:18:06, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
2507:09:16, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
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1670:Nominator's rationale - Delete
1547:Nominator's rationale - Delete
1420:Nominator's rationale - Delete
1293:Nominator's rationale - Delete
484:15:57, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
459:10:06, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
427:09:55, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
400:08:28, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
1:
2117:Nominator's nationale: Rename
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2816:Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars
2703:Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars
2560:05:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
2544:19:51, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
2536:Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars
2459:Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars
2265:be an acceptable approach?
2123:and the recent renaming of
2013:Municipally owned companies
1172:as part of several series
834:at me for saying that.) --
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1938:Category:User Table Tennis
1909:Category:User Table Tennis
1880:Category:User Table Tennis
152:to match parent article.
2837:Please do not modify it.
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2023:Please do not modify it.
1999:Please do not modify it.
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1471:Please do not modify it.
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989:Please do not modify it.
586:Please do not modify it.
562:Please do not modify it.
328:Please do not modify it.
304:Please do not modify it.
251:Category:DOM-TOM Parties
220:Category:DOM-TOM Parties
201:Please do not modify it.
191:Category:DOM-TOM Parties
177:Please do not modify it.
70:Please do not modify it.
1109:. Part of two series,
2667:top three at Christmas
2448:Nominator's rationale:
1843:No objection to that.
1088:Nominator's rationale:
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933:Dave Allen (comedian)
2814:defining for all. --
2649:You must be joking?
2157:â to harmonise with
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832:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS
711:Ian Watkins (Steps)
864:Redcoats (Butlins)
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1134:per vegaswikian--
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903:Duncan James
881:
848:
826:
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792:Talk:Butlins
758:
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348:
345:No Consensus
344:
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136:Welsh Labour
131:
128:
116:
97:
86:
83:
69:
66:
2596:Dana boomer
2334:Dana boomer
2303:Vegaswikian
2267:Vegaswikian
2047:Dana boomer
1119:Vegaswikian
921:Johnny Ball
698:Jimmy Perry
407:Weak oppose
2155:Rename all
1745:Od Mishehu
945:Darren Day
700:who wrote
446:HairedGirl
414:HairedGirl
55:October 11
43:October 12
38:October 10
2758:SmokeyJoe
2512:Weak Keep
1742:ע×× ××׊××
702:Hi-de-Hi!
435:has been
283:per nom.
2797:RFBailey
2660:you the
2587:Relisted
2325:Relisted
1980:VegaDark
1845:VegaDark
1835:Contribs
1828:Armbrust
1796:VegaDark
1674:VegaDark
1551:VegaDark
1428:VegaDark
1301:VegaDark
1161:Contribs
1154:Armbrust
1092:Jan 1922
836:RFBailey
732:notable
530:Contribs
523:Armbrust
494:Relisted
478:contribs
454:contribs
422:contribs
162:Contribs
155:Armbrust
20: |
2776:Johnbod
2671:ONaNcle
2637:ONaNcle
2491:Comment
2427:history
2205:Comment
1951:history
1907:Rename
1767:history
1648:history
1525:history
1398:history
1271:history
1136:ONaNcle
1067:history
882:reasons
734:because
672:because
640:history
539:Neutral
514:Opposer
469:SatyrTN
464:Neutral
433:WT:LGBT
285:Johnbod
218:Rename
150:Support
87:Rename
2732:rename
2612:Delete
2553:Delete
2499:Occuli
2451:Delete
2213:Occuli
2163:Occuli
1809:Rename
1734:Rename
1611:Delete
1488:Delete
1361:Delete
1234:Delete
1174:Hmains
1149:Oppose
957:define
664:Delete
450:(talk)
418:(talk)
281:Rename
263:Rename
132:Rename
2658:It's
2435:watch
2431:links
2161:etc.
1959:watch
1955:links
1916:. --
1775:watch
1771:links
1656:watch
1652:links
1613:. --
1533:watch
1529:links
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814:Cjc13
648:watch
644:links
605:. --
444:Brown
412:Brown
347:. --
227:. --
96:. --
46:: -->
16:<
2820:talk
2801:talk
2789:Keep
2780:talk
2771:Keep
2762:talk
2754:Keep
2745:talk
2707:talk
2697:and
2675:talk
2662:joke
2641:talk
2629:Keep
2620:talk
2600:talk
2573:talk
2565:Keep
2540:talk
2521:talk
2503:talk
2482:talk
2478:meco
2474:Keep
2463:talk
2439:logs
2423:talk
2419:edit
2397:. â
2395:keep
2338:talk
2307:talk
2293:talk
2289:meco
2271:talk
2261:and
2243:talk
2239:meco
2237:. __
2217:talk
2193:talk
2189:meco
2177:Note
2167:talk
2145:talk
2141:meco
2131:and
2051:talk
1984:talk
1963:logs
1947:talk
1943:edit
1924:damr
1849:talk
1800:talk
1779:logs
1763:talk
1759:edit
1678:talk
1660:logs
1644:talk
1640:edit
1621:damr
1555:talk
1537:logs
1521:talk
1517:edit
1498:damr
1432:talk
1410:logs
1394:talk
1390:edit
1371:damr
1305:talk
1297:here
1283:logs
1267:talk
1263:edit
1244:damr
1178:talk
1170:keep
1140:talk
1132:Keep
1123:talk
1113:and
1107:Keep
1096:talk
1079:logs
1063:talk
1059:edit
1040:damr
1030:Keep
966:talk
872:talk
840:talk
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818:talk
810:Keep
800:talk
767:talk
759:only
719:talk
707:this
694:Keep
682:.
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613:damr
603:Keep
547:talk
543:meco
518:LGBT
474:talk
355:damr
289:talk
235:damr
104:damr
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2233:or
2135:to
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1911:to
1811:to
1736:to
1299:).
1117:.
738:can
730:not
678:or
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452:⢠(
420:⢠(
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