530:: In Knowledge (XXG) parlance, it is "ORIGINAL RESEARCH" writ large when lists and categories of Jews are invented and created that would not meet the standard criteria of the known scholars and scholarship in these fields. Historically, as far as Jews themselves are concerned, ONLY proven and reliable universally accepted Jewish scholars of Jewish law itself who at the end of the day have always been the ones to determine and apply the definitions. It should be noted, that because there are so many conflicting and contradictory opinions, in an any case, it is very often an act of pseudo-scholarship for the editors behind the lists and categories of Jews to create and add names to these lists creating the FALSE IMPRESSION that Knowledge (XXG) "knows" who belongs on a list or category of Jews, when in actual fact there is DEFINITELY no such consensus in the real world.
618:, that should not mean we should not have any lists or categories pertaining to Jews. People argue about the definitions of who or who is not English, Welsh, British, Russian, Ukrainian etc., but we still have lists or categories relating to those identities. To claim that Jewish identity is just related to religion or how strictly it is observed is misleading and perhaps somewhat biased in a strict Orthodox perspective. Jewish culture encompasses numerous things, experiences, humour, music, literature, philosophy. Whether someone is or is not strictly religiously Jewish should not disregard these other aspects of Jewish culture. I do agree that many of the categories or lists that have been created are unnecessary divisions (i.e.
332:" argument because who is to say that the lists of "Italian-Americans" is accurate, or that the people themselves view themselves as such or that the world has either an interest or has always known this "fact" about them? Furthermore, Jews and people identified as being of Jewish origin have historically been the victims of crimes against humanity committed against the Jewish people by using such lists and "categories" (i.e. "non-Aryans"), the Holocaust being the strongest example of this. So that it may well be that by drawing up massive lists and categories of Jews, Knowledge (XXG) may God forbid be setting itself up as an accessory to a
324:. This thus means that it is ludicrous, presumptuous and decidedly un-scientific for there to be lists and categories of Jews or of people of Jewish descent drawn up by anonymous editors on Knowledge (XXG) who reveal by their placing of people on the lists and categories of Jews a COLLECTIVE ignorance of the CONFLICTING definitions of who is a Jew and that they have no knowledge of the conventional scholarship or legal issues that formulate the definitions of and what a Jew is.
360:
as being Jewish has been proven to result in horrendous discrimination against the people identified as Jews such as in the former Soviet Union when people suppressed their Jewish identity since being identified as Jew often meant denial of access to higher education, the loss of one's job, and expulsion from governmental and military positions. Or,
541:: It is also a violation of the rule that WIKIPEDIA IS NOT SOAPBOX or a tool for possibly nefarious PROPAGANDA which is the net result of identifying growing numbers of people as being Jews or somehow partially Jewish, when it is common knowledge that this is a matter of great concern and sensitivity (both positive and negative) to many people.
586:ברשימה זו כלולים יהודים או אישים ממוצא יהודי ששמם נודע בעמים ואינם ישראלים. כאשר אדם מנוי ברשימה ללא כל הערה, משמע אדם זה הוא יהודי לפי חוק השבות, שהוא גם הקריטריון המקובל במסורת ישראל ובציבור: אם יהודיה או התגיירות. עם זאת, הערך יזכיר (עם הערה מתאימה) גם דמויות ממוצא יהודי (כלומר, אב יהודי) וגם אנשים שהיו יהודים ונטשו את היהדות.
31:
407:(and only Knowledge (XXG)'s article on Jew serves as a serious counterweight.) Somehow or other there are people on Knowledge (XXG) who are in effect aping the notorious anti-Semitic "jewwatch . com" website (and there are others) that is a frightening example of "trouble -- and even tragedy -- waiting to happen".
737:, which "takes a wide definition of a Muslim by including most individuals who might be in some way identified as Muslim". Thus, the generally acceptable criteria for lists of people by religion are yet to be worked out. The lists of people by religion often also includes a classification by profession, see
697:
We can conclude from the above points that it may be acceptable to create separate lists with a cross-section of people by ethnicity/nationality and profession, e.g. when the original list of people by ethnicity/nationality becomes unmanageable or unwieldy. In this case, separate lists may be created
125:
In general, such lists are relevant when professional work reflects ethnic or religious heritage. Relevance exists when a person's religious observance affects a professional choice in a notable way or when someone's professional prominence draws attention to their religious affiliation. A list can
518:
WINNERS of Jewish descent, as well as listing ONLY very SMALL numbers of EXAMPLES here and there of some famous secular Jews that traditionally get noticed by scholars such as Freud, Einstein, Marx (although his father converted the family to
Christianity), as well not more than a sprinkling of some
476:
10) There is a growing concern about
Wikipidia editors and user familiar with the topics of Jews and Judaism about the motivation of some of the people who've been working on the lists and categories. This concern is re-enforced when he/she/they steadfastly refuse to produce sources, and become very
434:
We worry about the copyright status of photos and maps on
Knowledge (XXG), but surely one should worry a lot more about the rights people have to their own personal information being published on so prominent a site as Knowledge (XXG) (one of the Internet's top twenty sites!), especially in this day
359:
4) When the defense of such lists or categories about Jews is made by certain
Wikipedians that there are other lists and categories of ethnic groups, it must be understood that in the case of the Jewish people, Jews cannot be compared to other ethnicities or religious groups because being identified
202:
may carry particular importance for living people. Some individuals may choose to keep their religion or ethnic heritage as private as possible, either for personal reasons or to avoid discrimination. In most cases the relevance guideline should cover this situation. This reasoning can also apply
492:
editors attempt to do the work of researching and searching for information about the "Jewish-ness" of the people listed, they feel as if they are doing not just editorial work, but truly DIRTY WORK, because it's a frustrating and questionable task that induces shame and horror in many editors who
431:
It is time for
Knowledge (XXG) to formulate a formal policy regarding "Lists" and "Categories" of private citizens in the United States as being un-encyclopedic and a misrepresentation of how the people concerned would wish to be viewed and named. Are the living "Jews" in those lists and categories
428:
7) The obsession with the ethnic and religious origins of peoples' ethnic and religious roots and background is a phenomenon inspired predominantly by cultural trends in the United States where pride in one's ethnicity religious or non-religious attitudes is of interest to only a small minority of
513:
13) Knowledge (XXG) should NOT exceed the conventional very LIMITED norms of common ACCEPTABLE and RESPECTABLE and RELIABLE secular and TRULY SCHOLARLY and ACADEMIC usage when it comes to identifying people as being Jews. Thus, for example, there has always been an honest historical and cultural
112:
such as quotations, aphorisms or persons. If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into our sister project
Wikiquote. Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic. Knowledge
424:
and Jew-hatred. Unfortunately the uncontrolled growth of lists and categories about Jews is surely playing into the hands of the world's anti-Semites. We're inadvertently aiding and abetting anti-Semites who will find a way to use these lists against the names on them. For example, in the UK, the
484:
when the search for
Communists was a rage. And often, the articles attract the WRONG kind of attention from vandals and sockpuppets who want to attack these lists more than anything else. So it's ultimately going to be a lose-lose proposition for Knowledge (XXG) to allow them in the first place.
402:
that prove that the collecting of Jews' names and having them published on the
Internet is not an innocent undertaking and is meant as some kind of "warning" to the people identified as Jews and to the Jewish people as a whole no matter where they may find themselves. The most notorious of these
613:
I understand the concerns about the inclusion of living persons in Jewish lists so I am proposing that living persons should not be included and that the lists be made historical in nature only, i.e. to only include deceased people or people who died before a certain date. I am personally only
594:
In this list appear Jews or persons of a Jewish background who are notable and are not
Israeli. When an individual is listed without comment, this indicates that this person is Jewish according to the Law of Return, which is also the accepted criterion in Israeli tradition and public: a Jewish
814:(identifies self as "half Jewish" despite only having a Jewish grandparent). Howabout it? Your reponse should not have any references to any possible religious rules, as they do not apply (and frankly do not even claim to apply) to the ethnic and cultural backgrounds of individuals. Thank you.
705:
is that it is acceptable to preserve both the list of Jews as a list of lists and the subsidiary lists of Jews by profession. Part of the confusion regarding Jews seems to be terminological because in
English there is only one term "Jew" that denotes both a person of ethnic Jewish origin and a
552:
are not included in these concerns because they are KNOWN and identifiable VERY famous people and teachers, often through their written books and reliable conventional known sources, of who is a Jew and what being Jewish is all about in the first place as they are inherently and openly part of
493:
feel they are essentially being hoodwinked into "doing the Devil's work" by pinning the label "Jew" to people AND PERSONALITIES who have had no connection to Jews, a process which has, in effect, the connotation of being tagged with and becoming the victim of the hated
461:
9) Knowledge (XXG) is probably "outing" may people who don't see themselves as Jews, and almost certainly want to keep it to themselves, because there's a lot of anti-Semitism in some countries. This then means that Knowledge (XXG) is violating people's rights to
347:
used to keep. Lists or Categories of Jews or people of Jewish descent should be stopped and removed from Knowledge (XXG) because they unfortunately have the stench of being associated with the Nazis who used such lists to seek out and murder Jews as part of the
477:
rude about anyone who tries to get them to do so. The tracing of alleged or supposed Jewish ancestry on Knowledge (XXG) is beginning to appear to many editors as more like a worldwide "digging up dirt" or even a "witch hunt" for Jews very similar to form of
327:
2) The argument that is used by some Wikipedians that if the lists and categories of Jews were to be deleted than all the other lists and categories of ethnicities such as Italian-Americans, and people by religion, should also be removed is actually a
316:
1) There's no clear definition of "Jew" in use, so that people with one great-great grandparent are being called Jewish. There is NO universally agreed upon definition of who or what is a Jew. For a serious review of this subject see the key article:
49:
305:
At the present time, 99% of ALL "Lists" AND "Categories" of Jews should NOT be allowed on Knowledge (XXG) for the reasons that will be stated very clearly below so that we can move to have the problem resolved on Knowledge (XXG) once and for all
579:
178:
situations may do well to rename the list to a restrictive title and/or include an introductory paragraph to inform future editors. Source citations, which are always a good idea, become particularly desirable to avoid possible
148:
595:
mother or convenrsion. Alongside this, the entry will also mention (with appropriate commentary) figures of a Jewish bakcground (that is, Jewish father) as well as people who were Jews but abandoned Judaism.
664:, we should come up with a set of common principles for all lists by religion/ethnicity and profession. Once such principles are establsihed, they can be applied to lists of Jews as to a special case.
450:: A lot of the names are added without SOURCES (a violation of Knowledge (XXG) protocol), so there are accuracy problems. Often, the sources are very dubious. This means the lists are a violation of
698:
for navigational purposes only as an extension of the subdivision of the original list, not because the intersection of ethnicity/nationality and profession is of any encyclopedic value.
222:
gets nominated for deletion, voters can reach a consensus about its encyclopedic value without necessarily agreeing on whether the subject represents a religion, an ethnicity, or both.
614:
really interested in Jewish British history so I am really only interested in the historical figures relating to this. However, I strongly feel that while people may argue about
749:
To allow creation of lists by religion/ethnicity/nationality and profession whenever the original list by religion/ethnicity/nationality becomes too long to be feasible.
725:
However, there seems to be little agreement on Knowledge (XXG) as to who should be included in the list of people by religion. The criteria range from very stringent on
714:
stands for a follower of the Jewish faith. Due to the ambiguity of the English language, it is acceptable to include a person into the list when that person is Jewish
255:
is not in itself encyclopedic, but may bear a close relationship to bigotry and discrimination. These matters are situational and should be handled with common sense.
794:, would not be listed because he didn't explicitly identify with Swiss/Jewish in his background). I would, as such, include "people with a grandparent only" such as
336:
by setting up enhanced data-bases of human beings who may or may not be connected to the Jewish people. Does Knowledge (XXG) want to be a de facto venue for online
425:
politicians loyal to Tony Blair are called the "Jewish mafia" and opponents are always interested to work out who is, and who isn't, a Jew among his supporters.
627:
240:
may be a different matter. A relationship can be encyclopedic for a country's citizens that would not be encyclopedic for a related ethnic/religious group.
194:
based lists should be limited to self-described individuals when referring to living people. Historic attributions that might be contested should be sourced.
619:
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by religion, pretty much as it is done now. At this point, I propose to end all Jewish-specific discussions regarding the appropriateness of lists.
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12) The fact is that for a few of the names, the only online sources for them being Jews are extreme blatant anti-Semitic sites such as
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because, unfortunate as it may sound, in millions of people's eyes, to be classed as a Jew means to be somehow an "inferior" person?
94:
sees frequent controversies about how to apply the following rule to lists of people that link religion or ethnicity to profession:
66:
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There is nothing wrong in creating lists of lists, e.g. when the original list became too long and was split into several lists.
225:(revised addition) Editors may wish to add notes or subcategories for individuals whose presence on a list carries ambiguities.
623:
218:
have been known to cause Wikipedian disputes. These guidelines treat ethnicity and religion as functionally equivalent. If
48:
for its implementation was not established within a reasonable period of time. If you want to revive discussion, please use
733:
Christianity or for their influence on the popularity or development of some group of professed Christians" to very lax on
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follower of the Jewish faith who observes the commandments. Some other languages have two different words, e.g. in Russian
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also be relevant if its members overcame significant prejudice related to their religion/ethnicity and profession.
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to restrict lists of people by religion only to those people who professed their religion openly and unambiguously.
635:
134:
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806:(feels "Irish as a person and Jewish as an actor", despite only having an Irish grandfather) in Irish-Americans,
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11) In the majority of instances references and citations are not given by contributing editors, but then when
141:
286:
Move to delete 99% of all Lists of Jews: Sixteen reasons why this should become a fixed Knowledge (XXG) policy
333:
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reporter" on the lookout for sensationalism and a desire to "create news" and not merely to "report" it.
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sites, and Knowledge (XXG) and its mirrors. This is something we NOT should be doing on Knowledge (XXG).
45:
219:
738:
667:
First, let's identify the issues on which there seems to be a consensus among Knowledge (XXG) editors:
390:, God forbid, among those Jews on Knowledge (XXG) lists who are alive, and may wish to stay so !!!
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is encyclopedic because its members could represent their country in international competitions.
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sites is "Jewwatch" which is the top site that pops up when doing a search for the word "Jew" on
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6) Knowledge (XXG) should NOT lend itself in any way, even unwittingly, to the furtherance of
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attributions should be limited to self-described individuals when referring to living people.
754:
To establish a standard for inclusion of people on the list of people by religion. I propose
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This discussion attempts to establish consistent guidelines in accordance with that policy.
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who has a parent of that ethnicity 3. any person with a grandparent of that ethnicity
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Proposal for all ethnicity-based lists (and by "ethnic groups" I do also means Jews)
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Please list amendments on the project page and comments under the discussion page.
113:(XXG) also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference."
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New proposal on general principles for lists by religion-ethnicity and profession
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if one is known to be Jewish then that person is FORBIDDEN by present well-known
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382:. There is also the threat of identifying potential Jewish targets for Islamic
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4. Edit for relevance if only certain members faced significant discrimination
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for the related proposed Knowledge (XXG) policy, guideline, or process page.
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There is nothing wrong in categorizing such lists of people by profession.
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List of Jewish members of Academies of Sciences, Humanities or Engineering
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Knowledge (XXG) is not an indiscriminate collection of information:
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List of first black Major League Baseball players by team and date
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who has explicitly identified with that ethnic group above others
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3. Keep the list if its members faced significant discrimination
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There is nothing wrong in lists of people by nationality (e.g.,
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729:, which includes only people "who are notable due to their
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2. Edit for relevance when there's a possible relationship
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The original list may become a list of lists in this case.
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16) Obviously, lists of famous Jewish religious figures,
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1. Keep the list when there's an obvious relationship
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based lists could use basically the same guidelines.
292:The following is the result of discussions between
432:being Emailed for permission to list them as Jews?
110:Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics
216:Overlapping definitions of religion and ethnicity
710:denotes a person of ethnic Jewish origin, while
790:(so any person with a random grandparent, like
782:who is "fully" of that ethnicity 2. any person
609:Proposal to make Jewish lists historical only
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638:) and these should be put for deletion via
620:List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society
570:Discussion has been moved to the talk page.
537:Knowledge (XXG):What Knowledge (XXG) is not
701:The application of this conclusion to the
268:===Additional modification (proposed)===
67:Knowledge (XXG):Lists in Knowledge (XXG)
744:To sum up, my proposal is as follows:
18:Knowledge (XXG):Centralized discussion
248:, however, has no inherent relevance.
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599:Thoughts on this type of framework?
590:Which roughly translates into this:
526:Knowledge (XXG):No original research
456:Knowledge (XXG):No original research
343:3) These are the kinds of lists the
409:See the Knowledge (XXG) article on
203:to lists about sexual orientation.
156:List of Mexican-American scientists
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630:) and, in some cases, frivolous (
394:5) There are at the present time
356:(1939-1945) during World war II.
836:Knowledge (XXG) failed proposals
466:in acting more like a snooping "
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519:PROVEN Jewish in other fields.
778:Simple. We list 1. any person
624:List of Jewish Nobel laureates
446:Knowledge (XXG):Citing sources
366:government laws from entering
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632:Category:Jewish chess players
452:Knowledge (XXG):Verifiability
263:22:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
242:List of Israeli chess players
580:יהודים מפורסמים באומות העולם
575:Hebrew Knowledge (XXG) model
458:, both of which are policy.
246:List of Jewish chess players
170:Modifications and comments:
819:00:36, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
766:08:41, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
651:22:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
604:13:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
565:12:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
311:12:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
280:22:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
230:18:46, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
208:18:46, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
82:17:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
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636:Category:Jewish_anarchists
163:List of Methodist dentists
161:5. Delete unrelated lists
135:List of Muslim theologians
679:) or by ethnicity (e.g.,
370:or being present in the
142:List of Catholic artists
52:or initiate a thread at
822:Discussion on talk page
769:Discussion on talk page
334:crimes against humanity
798:in Italian-Americans,
681:List of Kurdish people
660:As suggested above by
582:lead paragraph reads:
129:Suggested guidelines:
810:(raised Jewish) and
812:Robert Downey, Jr.
727:List of Christians
673:List of Bulgarians
220:List of Jewish XYZ
192:Sexual orientation
176:Edit for relevance
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87:Introduction
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792:Yul Brynner
560:Thank you.
479:McCarthyism
435:and age of
330:red herring
238:Citizenship
504:Stormfront
384:terrorists
37:This is a
816:Vulturell
731:professed
468:paparazzi
411:Jew Watch
338:APARTHEID
294:User:IZAK
198:(revised)
179:disputes.
46:Consensus
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830:Category
546:Israelis
508:Islamist
429:people.
400:Internet
555:Judaism
471:tabloid
464:PRIVACY
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780:at all
763:Pecher
716:either
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648:Arniep
550:rabbis
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380:Medina
277:Durova
273:Jewish
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184:Gender
99:WP:NOT
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79:Durova
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712:iudey
535:See:
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376:Mecca
364:Saudi
345:Nazis
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601:El_C
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533:15)
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490:NPOV
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65:See
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644:CFD
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539:!!!
528:!!!
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