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album charting in two different decades, seven years apart. And if you had google-searched the correct title, the one displayed at allmusic, as well as man other sites, you would have found links to verifing information at Amazon, Yahoo Music, MTV, CMT, VH1, MSN Music, and others. The notability guidelines for music, though poorly writtent, clearly identify charting alone as indicating notability. Why don't you just own up to our errors? You said there was no allmusic page, but there was one. You said the allmusic page was blank, but, as you now concede, it wasn't (It's incomplete, which is different.) You googled the wrong title, thereby missing a clear set of reliable sources. (And if you believe Amazon is less reliable than allMusic, you don't recognize that allMusic is just another retailer, with snazzier web pages but less coverage overall than Amazon.) It's disturbing to see someone so plainly willing to remove verifiable, useful information from
Knowledge (XXG) in lieu of acknowledging his own mistakes.
940:
of seeing the article deleted. The justification of deletion for the original category was based on the same absence of sources in the corresponding list. Now that there is a corresponding list with ample reliable and verifiable sources to support the entries included, there is no policy reason to delete the category. Nor should the argument that categories can't have sources be given any weight, as this is a design feature of the category system that would argue for the deletion of every single category in
Knowledge (XXG). While other categories for fictional characters have been deleted, those where there is clear evidence that the characteristic is defining and for which there are sources to support the association for individual characters, have generally been kept in compliance with relevant Knowledge (XXG) policy. Not only
307:
most web commentary. The album is also listed in the
Rolling Stone discography for the Judds (without other comment, since RS isn't prone to review Christmas albums by country artists. The track list is verified at sites like Amazon.com. And while Google search results aren't impressive, they're an order of magnitude larger than you claim when you search under the correct title (there is a small error in the way it was listed in Knowledge (XXG)), and it's hardly surprising that there aren't many web resources devoted to 20-year-old Christmas albums. Frankly, you need to search more carefully; your incorrect assertions about the allmusic content should chasten you. Since your ratification of our own nomination was based on clear factual error, you should correct your error, not compound it.
1434:) rather than by more concrete, specific traits. Concepts such as these are reliably definable in the general, but application to specific examples is meaningless without explanation or sourcing, which makes categories inappropriate as a means of grouping such purported examples. Lists remain preferred when it's a matter of documenting literary analysis, because it matters who is identifying the characters as such and why; such concepts regarding a character's role are often applied inconsistently, as
1273:
show that. Also, I would recommend against splitting or parenting this category with a "real world" category...anti-hero is mainly a fictional term and is applied to real individuals in a figurative sense--not really an NPOV classification. I make no comments here about the category itself, but if this DRV is close, sort this comment into the "endorse" column rather than "overturn".
1071:
If your issue is your uncertainty as to whether this is for fictional characters, I fully support a rename to go along with the restoration of the category. I think you may want to reconsider what it is that you're endorsing. I had been trying to improve the sources in the list and the corresponding article before the decision was made to pull the plug on the category.
1454:. The reasons are still valid that were given in all of those CFDs as to why such character roles/types don't work as categories, and so should be documented only through sourced lists, if at all. Per CSD G4, speedy deletion was appropriate because "any changes in the recreated page do not address the reasons for which the material was deleted."
944:, it appears that it already has. Based on the sources provided, this category should be kept. I have no objection to a relist at CfD in which the current category as constructed is reconsidered anew, disregarding the previous CfD results in light of the enormous number of sources available to support the character trait as defining.
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I don't see anything egregiously wrong with the deletion, although a G4 of a category is always harder to uphold than for an article (How is a category significantly different from it's deleted form so as to obviate the deletion rationale?). If consensus has changed on this category, then a CfD will
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I would refocus if this wasn't what I thought was being done already. This is (or more accurately, was) a category about fictional characters that corresponds to the list of such fictional characters. I did not create the category, but I would have included the word "Fictional" in the title if I had.
542:
and I did so. If you really want it back that much, you could have just asked me to restore it and I would have done so with no questions asked. You didn't need to go through this method. Either way you decide, I don't care what you do with the article. If you decide to restore it, I give any and all
321:
Please try to assume some good faith. By "blank" I meant that
Allmusic has neither an album cover nor track listing. How many sources do you find on Google? I find nothing other than discogs.com and Amazon, and we shouldn't be using Amazon as a source anyway. I tried everything: Google Books and News
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an NPOv classification. There are thousands of people who have been referred to as a "pain in the ass" by reliable sources, but we probably shouldn't take it at face value. I know that's not what you're suggesting, I'm just trying to clarify my side. As for the naming issue, I would say just have
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makes no reference to antiheros being fictional. While antihero may be mainly a fictional term, it has a strong secondary real world meaning to the point where people may start intermixing fictional and non fictional characters in the same
Knowledge (XXG) category. However, that's a naming issue. --
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I am basing my comment on the stated function of DRV, which is to assess the correctness of the action taken by the closing administrator. You have not demonstrated that the closing administrator has acted outside his discretion in deleting the category, nor have you presented any new information to
987:
I'm not the one asking for it to be recreated. You are. You're the one that needs to come up for an answer to the reason it got deleted in the first place, not me. And I'd love to hear your reasoning behind "a wonderful justification to get rid of the entire category system". Have they all been
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represents a recreation of the deleted article and provides a list of characters, each one supported by reliable and verifiable sources, with nearly 200 sources for more than 100 fictional antiheroes. Not a single
Knowledge (XXG) editor would challenge this article's recreation with a rational hope
504:
per Minos. But the fix is obviously in, as Kurt would say, removing accurate information on a false pretext is acceptable to all the posters here but us, while pointing out the false pretext is seen as a mortal sin. You need to recognize that
Knowledge (XXG) privileges aggressive feral children of
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closure. I haven't seen any arguments that overcome the original reason for deletion. That the list is sourced is great, but that just means that the list is sourced; it doesn't mean the category should exist. A category "is a binary system - you're in or you're out - without the possibility of
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It was answered in the comment you responded to. Just cut and paste it out of the allmusic page that you claimed didn't exist. Now stop pretending that criticism of your errors is an "attack." You shouldn't have closed the AFD to being with, which is a policy violation since you are the nominator,
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Please don't make false insinuations or pretend to be a victim. I said nothing implying bad faith, although your less than appropriate responses will make it easy for some people to infer it. You now acknowledge that the allmusic site is not blank, and, I hope, acknowledge that the site shows the
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The allmusic link is not blank; you must have a browser problem. The charting information is verified, unsurprisingly, by the "charts" tab, which demonstrates that the album charted in two different decades, in 1987 and 1994. Presumably the original 1987 release is sufficiently long ago to evade
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as closer. I do not believe that consensus has changed regarding this category, or others like it. Instead, there remains a strong consensus to delete or listify categories that attempt to classify fictional characters by such broad types or roles they supposedly play within fiction (see, e.g.,
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Good point. Also, for pages qualifying for speedy delete there is a suggestion to consider whether it could be improved, reduced to a stub, merged or redirected elsewhere or be handled with some other action short of deletion. The category could not be handled per any of the examples listed. It
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and since you badgered the main author into acquiescing to deletion with grossly inaccurate claims, you ought to assume the responsibility for cleaning up your own mistakes, rather than citing his accepting your inaccuracies in good valid as justification for your failure to correct your error.
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being full of reliable and verifiable sources, it looks like someone entered the name of the fictional character and "anti-hero" in a google search and provided a link to whatever blog or website happened to come to the top of the search. And, instead of using citation templates such as
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under criterion G7. The page had two edits prior to the addition of the AfD tag and the contributor of both those edits recommended deletion in the AfD. If someone thinks that they have sources and can write a better article, you are free to do so. The page is not protected.
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demonstrate that the consensus regarding using words like "hero," "villain," "anti-hero" and the like in category names has changed. A 2-2 discussion prior to the speedy delete does not demonstrate a change in consensus, despite your misleading attempts to claim that it does.
972:
You've provided a wonderful justification to get rid of the entire category system in
Knowledge (XXG), lock, stock and barrel. Why is this argument relevant for this category? Can you offer any Knowledge (XXG) policy justification for the continued deletion of this category?
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Lack of sources aside, I still stand by the fact that this was a valid G7, otherwise I wouldn't have tagged it. Rossami is right, Caldorwards4 was the only editor of the page, and since they called for a delete in the afd discussion, I figured G7 applied.
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The deletion reason supplied was "Lacks notability, possible hoax and no references. Dicdef." I fixed all four problems at the last minute, but the article was deleted because the guy closing it only added up the votes and did not consider the arguments.
1404:
probably should have first been brought to DRV before recreation. We're at DRv now, so, with a formal deletion discussion ongoing and some keep reasoning listed, it seems reasonable to allow CfD2 to finish, particularly since CfD1 was two years ago. --
623:
Given your stated concern with adherence to policy, perhaps you could explain why you placed an invalid speedy deletion nomination today on an article where my spouse, who had criticized you here, had objected to the first speedy deletion tag.
1208:- no procedural error in the speedy deletion. Given that there were four editors' comments with two in favor of deletion and two in favor of keeping, the notion that consensus was "clearly leaning towards retention" seems faintly ludicrous.
444:. This should be attempted first – courteously invite the admin to take a second look". I haven't noticed this discussion taking place. Can the nominator please explain why (or point out where the discussion was, as I may have missed it)?
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Well, the problem is that the classification of a real person as an anti-hero is fundamentally figurative. I know that it is used for real people, but we can't make an NPOV classification of it any more than we can make
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923:. Despite the fact that consensus at the CfD seemed clearly leaning towards retention of the category based on relevant Knowledge (XXG) policy, the category was speedy deleted as a recreation of a category deleted at
935:. For articles, there is a very simple system of recreating deleted content; Articles that had been deleted due to sourcing issues can be recreated as long as the sourcing issues have been addressed. The article
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The reason the category and corresponding list got deleted in the first place was a lack of sources to support the claim, and that issue has been addressed with ample reliable and verifiable sources.
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that would reveal the blog/website name of the source, the blog/website name of the sources largely are hidden, making it even more difficult to verify the sourcing of List of fictional anti-heroes.
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per DGG. It would be one thing if this was a (relatively) recent discussion. But as
Alansohn points out, consensus can change - and two years is a virtual eternity on Knowledge (XXG). --
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since there is some question whether the article was indeed desired to be deleted. Once others have commented that an article shouldbe kept, the principle of G7 no longer should apply.
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Category:Antiheroes, this DRV cannot lead to restoring Category:Fictional antiheroes. I suggest closing this DRV, posting a new DRV requesting that you be allowed to recreate
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After this much time, deletion without a rehearing is simply not reasonable. We will find out if consensus has changed by having the CfD, that's what it is for.
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There wasn't "reasonable doubt" that this was a recreation of content previously deleted per a deletion discussion; that's what "reasonable doubt", as used in
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title turned up nothing other than the 12 hits I already linked to. A charting album isn't inherently notable, especially if we can barely even verify it.
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since (i) the CfD was two years ago, (ii) consensus can change at a new CfD. (iii) In addition, Knowledge (XXG) does have an article on
561:. You weren't listed as the closer of the AFD discussion. Why don't you just undelete it, rather than standing on unnecessary protocol?
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Do you care to address the propriety of the recreation or are you basing your endorse off a CfD result from 2-1/2 years ago?
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admins full right to undelete it. (If I have to "release" the right to do so; which I'm still not sure if I have to or not.)
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since a formal discussion was in progress and included a keep reasoning that raised reasonable doubt. Overturn and relist
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Caldorwards4 indeed contributed the only significant content of the article, otherwise I wouldn't have tagged it for G7.
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Seems straightforward G7 and process was followed. No objection to recreation if sources can be found.
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ummm.... just out of curiosity, did anyone actually read my deletion reason? The author
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On the deletion review page, there is an instruction "Deletion Review is to be used
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hits are things like Discogs which are not reliable. This almost entirely fails the
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all ages and subjugates users who foolhardily try to deal with them in good faith.
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by default due to the nominator's failure to respond to a reasonable query.
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subject to a history check of the deleted article. Userfy on request for
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a "fictional anti-heroes" category without a "real" parent/sibling cat.
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that is often applied to fictional characters by reliable sources (
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per DGG, with no opinion on the merits of the speedy deletion.
1093:, Category:Antiheroes should have at least two subcategories
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as nominator. The Allmusic listing is blank, there are only
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Okay, I didn't catch that the title was wrong. Please quit
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if you'd like the article userfied as a starting point. –
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123:Christmas with The Judds and Alabama
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1708:The above is an archive of the
1562:The above is an archive of the
963:discussion or explanation." --
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18:Knowledge (XXG):Deletion review
1095:Category:Real world antiheroes
1027:Category:Fictional anti-heroes
864:Category:Fictional anti-heroes
690:– Overturned for relisting. –
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1436:List of fictional anti-heroes
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1035:List of fictional anti-heroes
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507:The Enchantress Of Florence
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1529:I agree with Otto above.
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1618:Please do not modify it.
1569:Please do not modify it.
1296:Dictionary.reference.com
711:Please do not modify it.
671:Please do not modify it.
112:Please do not modify it.
43:Deletion review archives
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817:Category:Anti-heroes
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117:
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67:
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58:
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49:
40:
29:
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15:
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2:
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1449:
1448:femme fatales
1445:
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1120:Find sources:
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782:
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766:
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749:
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737:
732:
728:
724:
723:speedy delete
720:
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196:
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188:Find sources:
185:
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180:
177:
173:
169:
162:
158:
154:
150:
145:
141:
136:
132:
128:
124:
119:
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113:
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103:
102:
97:
94:
93:
89:
88:
83:
79:
78:
74:
73:
72:
71:
66:
63:
53:
48:
44:
39:
32:
23:
19:
1714:
1707:
1690:
1626:
1617:
1610:
1583:
1568:
1561:
1547:
1543:
1526:
1512:
1504:
1487:
1472:
1468:
1440:protagonists
1426:
1409:
1372:
1351:
1348:
1347:
1304:
1291:
1269:
1205:
1186:
1168:
1162:
1154:
1147:
1141:
1135:
1129:
1119:
1053:
1018:
1017:
959:
921:User:Postdlf
914:
811:
809:
753:
739:
730:
710:
703:
685:
670:
663:
644:
640:
607:
589:
577:
558:
535:
501:
477:
458:
441:
413:
398:
358:
323:
303:
284:
280:
272:
248:
236:
230:
222:
215:
209:
203:
197:
187:
120:
111:
104:
91:
86:
75:
64:
47:2008 October
1549:Philosopher
1452:antagonists
1354:and relist
1270:List at CfD
1145:free images
692:Chick Bowen
213:free images
1514:this essay
291:test too.
52:October 17
38:October 15
1349:Overturn
1292:Off topic
1111:antiheros
1033:. As for
489:SmokeyJoe
480:WP:CSD#G7
355:attacking
1629:Rom baro
1590:Relisted
1585:Rom baro
1544:Overturn
1531:Eusebeus
1249:Otto4711
1224:Alansohn
1210:Otto4711
1073:Alansohn
999:Alansohn
990:Kbdank71
975:Alansohn
965:Kbdank71
946:Alansohn
925:this CfD
502:Overturn
478:Endorse
399:Endorse
304:Comment.
87:lifebaka
20: |
1674:restore
1646:protect
1641:history
1527:Endorse
1505:Endorse
1456:Postdlf
1427:Endorse
1391:Postdlf
1352:Endorse
1329:Protonk
1275:Protonk
1206:Endorse
1151:WP refs
1139:scholar
1019:Endorse
960:Endorse
897:restore
877:history
850:restore
830:history
810:<--
789:restore
769:history
729:<--
608:Comment
595:Rossami
582:Spartaz
578:Endorse
536:Comment
406:request
281:nothing
277:12 hits
273:Endorse
255:it does
219:WP refs
207:scholar
168:restore
140:protect
135:history
1697:(tock)
1650:delete
1594:Stifle
1492:Stifle
1488:Relist
1469:Relist
1450:, and
1406:Suntag
1387:WP:CSD
1369:Suntag
1301:Suntag
1183:Suntag
1123:Google
1050:Suntag
736:Suntag
641:Relist
599:(talk)
546:Thingg
521:Stifle
463:Stifle
446:Stifle
410:Suntag
191:Google
144:delete
82:Ask me
1678:cache
1667:views
1659:watch
1655:links
1442:(and
1181:. --
1166:JSTOR
1127:books
901:cache
885:watch
881:links
854:cache
838:watch
834:links
793:cache
777:watch
773:links
559:Reply
487:. --
324:exact
234:JSTOR
195:books
172:cache
161:views
153:watch
149:links
55:: -->
16:<
1694:Shii
1663:logs
1637:talk
1633:edit
1598:talk
1535:talk
1519:jc37
1496:talk
1479:talk
1460:talk
1395:talk
1365:CfD2
1356:CfD2
1333:talk
1279:talk
1253:talk
1228:talk
1214:talk
1159:FENS
1133:news
1103:CfD2
1097:and
1077:talk
1042:and
1003:talk
979:talk
950:talk
915:The
910:CfD1
889:logs
873:talk
869:edit
842:logs
826:talk
822:edit
806:CfD2
802:CfD1
781:logs
765:talk
761:edit
651:talk
630:talk
567:talk
525:talk
511:talk
493:talk
467:talk
450:talk
380:talk
345:talk
313:talk
289:WP:V
285:only
263:talk
227:FENS
201:news
157:logs
131:talk
127:edit
35:<
1682:AfD
1474:DGG
1446:),
1173:TWL
1048:--
804:) (
734:--
721:G4
646:DGG
241:TWL
176:AfD
22:Log
1680:|
1676:|
1665:|
1661:|
1657:|
1653:|
1648:|
1644:|
1639:|
1635:|
1600:)
1588:–
1537:)
1498:)
1481:)
1462:)
1397:)
1335:)
1294:-
1281:)
1255:)
1230:)
1216:)
1153:)
1079:)
1005:)
981:)
952:)
912:)
899:|
887:|
883:|
879:|
875:|
871:|
852:|
840:|
836:|
832:|
828:|
824:|
791:|
779:|
775:|
771:|
767:|
763:|
653:)
632:)
569:)
527:)
513:)
495:)
469:)
452:)
401:G7
382:)
359:is
347:)
315:)
265:)
251:G7
221:)
174:|
170:|
159:|
155:|
151:|
147:|
142:|
138:|
133:|
129:|
92:++
45::
1687:)
1684:)
1672:(
1669:)
1631:(
1596:(
1533:(
1494:(
1477:(
1458:(
1412:☼
1393:(
1375:☼
1331:(
1307:☼
1277:(
1251:(
1226:(
1212:(
1189:☼
1169:·
1163:·
1155:·
1148:·
1142:·
1136:·
1130:·
1125:(
1075:(
1056:☼
1001:(
977:(
948:(
908:(
906:)
903:)
895:(
891:)
867:(
859:)
856:)
848:(
844:)
820:(
808:)
800:(
798:)
795:)
787:(
783:)
759:(
742:☼
649:(
628:(
565:(
523:(
509:(
491:(
465:(
448:(
416:☼
378:(
343:(
311:(
261:(
237:·
231:·
223:·
216:·
210:·
204:·
198:·
193:(
181:)
178:)
166:(
163:)
125:(
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