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knee jerk emotional reaction was to !vote "overturn and relist". However, we also have 3 SPAs !voting "keep", two "good faith" "delete" !votes with fair rationales and one SPA in this discussion comparing the deletion with book burning in Nazi
Germany which reduces my sympathy level. Therefore, I think the fair thing to do is to
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and I don't really see much content if that part is set aside. I don't see any improvement in the userfied version. In fact, the version looks even worse than the original because it introduces links to unreliable sources like blogs, and it introduces a lot of unsourced contentious material (various
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I'd like the article undeleted so I can post the updated page. If after that an admin would like to talk about the article regarding if it should remain then we can start the debate...which is fine with me. But I was told I'd have time to update the article and provide reference when I've done and
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Ok, we have a "vague wave" nomination rationale with the phrase "non notable", the nominator then !votes twice, the second !vote basically saying "hurry up and delete this damn thing". Now If I were a new user who had just created an article and got this treatment, I'd be pissed. Therefore my first
837:
There are good reasons why
Knowledge has strong rules about what products can receive articles. If we weren't fairly tough with this policy, then our encyclopaedia would be drowning in marketing spam from people who're alive to the advertising possibilities of having an article. What you need to
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The often-repeated comment that "DRV is not AfD round 2" is particularly unhelpful to a new user, because the new user tends to take that as meaning "Your article has been deleted, this is not the right place to appeal the deletion, and I'm not going to tell you where the right place to appeal the
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ZK is notable, if google zk, you will get 9,660,000 entries, and zk framework is listed in the 1st place, and 9 out of 11 entries in the fist page is related to zk framework. It means google engine "thinks" this framework is the most relative to these two letter "zk" out of 90 million plus hits.
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Seems that the user EdJohnston do not or will not look right at the sources. A few of the new articles are smaller summaries of the printed articles. Yes, there are other not english languaged developer magazins in the world. ITRepublik, Java
Magazin, Entwickler Magazin, JAX, Business Technology.
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might be found that were not added to the article up till now. The new sources listed above don't include any mentions in books, print magazines, or edited web sites (that are well enough known to have their own
Knowledge articles), so far as I can tell. Two books have been written about ZK. I
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as a valid reading of the consensus. Deletion review is a venue to address a failure to follow the deletion process (e.g. closing a debate as "keep" when almost all the commenters suggested deletion, and the comments were grounded in policy). It is not a
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As a side-note, wikipedia editors are often very cynical about new users who've not shown much commitment to the encyclopaedia but do show a strong attachment to a particular company or product, and I'm sure you can see why. But our policy on this is
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Agreed that there's no excuse for socking but take a look at the discussion again. The first "keep" !vote was obviously involved with this project. However, it was then followed by the nominator !voting twice, the second one being particularly
798:– proper admin closure. This is not AFD round 2. I think the fact that the nom, who also ended up !voting two more time - probably not aware of it, pales to the fact that the arguments for deletion far outweigh the arguments for keeping.
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Closed four days early with no explanation. Closed as "redirect", supposedly "per nom". Considering I, the nominator, do not agree with a redirect, nor even mentioned the possibility, this is highly confusing. The redirect target does
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mention the word "toyetic", which means a redirect leaves users wondering where they are and how they got there; thus, I feel a redirect is inappropriate. Closing admin has been completely unresponsive to inquiries. I recommend
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Just so you know, Google hits are not an indication of notability and are definately not a reason to overturn an AFD. That being said, even after ignoring this borderline SPA's comment userfication look like the likely outcome.
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1202:. Isn't that guarantee enough of notability? Moreover, these publications were not mentioned in the original article, nor in the AfD; so DRV is absolutely the right place to bring this up. --
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You can certainly propose a 3rd AfD, and
Deletion Review can lead to that outcome. But in this case, I think the article is falling under the bar Knowledge sets for articles about products.
900:
It is interesting to see today's knowledge to be deleted. More than 60 years, we had this in
Germany. The books burning in the 2nd World War. Hopefully you have a good conscience.
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Cannot I propose a 3rd AFD? Please read those references, I was too late to provide notability evidence. It's the evidence that matters not only because of who said it, isn't it?
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from en.wikipedia. On de.wikipedia, if other editors think it's true, you can write it. On en.wikipedia, you have to source not only that it's true, but that it's
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Article was readded after the review to allow cleanup and such. Work was moved to the posters userspace and was about to be reposted when it was again deleted.
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We cannot accept this deletion because of not-notable. ZK is a famous Ajax framework which is always listed the most active project over the past two years on
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34:
1157:. The notability if out of the question. Or you can google gwt, and zk, they have been compared in many articles. if GWT deserves an article, why not ZK?
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since the article has subsequently been restored into main space and is currently at AFD, having this discussed in multiple forums seems pointless. --
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The AfD discussion clearly ended with a consensus to delete (give or take a few suspicious newbies who failed to provide any reasoning better than
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A few more articles from sites that do not have their own
Knowledge article: ZK is compared with 7 other web frameworks in an independent survey
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before a deletion review. That's one of the purposes of a deletion review, and you should ignore anyone who seeks to imply otherwise.
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deletion is." In other words, whether or not it's intended that way, it usually comes across as a totally bureaucratic stone wall.
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This is a good reason to do not delete the post. You've learned here in
Knowledge that in other countries are also magazines.
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1083:- the AfD was properly interpreted, and the setting up of sockpuppets to vote your side is never a good idea regardless. -
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Having said that, on second look, DGG could be right that the DrDobbs Portal site is over the bar. It-republik.de is not.—
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checked the older of the two (published in 2008) to see if the book is held in any
Worldcat libraries, but it is not.
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More than 20 references are listed, and most of them are from reliable resources, would you please restore the page?
1194:. As mentioned in the nomination of this DRV, there are 2 independent published books about this topic: Chen/Cheng
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will continue to expand and such, but I cannot if the article keeps getting deleted before I can post the changes.
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hearing of the case. Note that arguments from very new users are customarily discounted or given less weight.
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the article and give the creator a chance to write a sourced article that meets our notability guidelines. --
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1125:- I'm not convinced all of those are reliable sources, but let's see what they can do to improve it. -
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One of the articles is from a rRS, DrDobbs Portal, the online version of the famous Dr. Dobbs
Journal.
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74:– Moot. A non-speediable version of this article was recreated. It has since been listed at AFD. –
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1175:. The user provides the references the people who voted to delete said didn't exist which suggest
1103:. Perhaps the creator figured that if it's ok for the nominator to !vote twice, then so can he. --
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could be met. With that addressed, there's no reason to not give an improved article a chance. -
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I'm sorry, I'm still confused. Is this the referenced article that you'd like to see restored?—
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That link's above, and I did read it. Some of us do speak other languages... not
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has a detailed comparison of the Ajax Push capabilities of ICEfaces and ZK:
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A university seminar work. Ajax Sudoku game developed with the ZK Framework
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controversies). Should this be kept, it should be much better sourced with
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AFD opened 14 days, comments made adhered to policy. Otherwise normal.
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ZK is listed in the annual Ajax survey of Richard Monson-Haefel of the
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as an alternate view-rendering technology that can be used with
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865:. But that's the kind of level of notability we're aiming for.
363:– Non-admin closure of AFD reverted and discussion relisted. –
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I think there are reliable sources not mentioned before:
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ZK Studio and Eclipse 3.4 Ganymed. Entwickler.de Magazin
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Features of the new release 3.5 . Entwickler.de Magazin
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The new ZK Studio version. Java Magazin German 11/2008.
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If needed please review the work done of the userspace.
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Knowledge does have articles about products; there's
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You can certainly bring evidence that the subject is
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Next-Generation Applications Using Ajax and OpenAjax
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Using Desktop MVC Patterns with ZK, Spring & JPA
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ZK Ajax Java Web Framework: Ajax with no Javascript
1374:discussing download, installation and usage of ZK.
1039:De.wikipedia takes a very different attitude to
636:The new ZK version. Java Magazin German 07/2006.
188:Can you please clarify what you want done here?
1405:Implementing Load-on-Demand using ZK and Grails
699:at Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin. 30.04.2009
1217:Seems like a good candidate for userification
711:JSP Tags and Zkoss. JaxEnter Magazin 12/2008.
8:
1324:ZK is mentioned in the following books: In
873:, so that attitude is often taken too far.—
533:The following is an archived debate of the
382:The following is an archived debate of the
225:Knowledge:Deletion review/Log/2009 April 23
93:The following is an archived debate of the
1368:Designing rich AJAX Web interfaces with ZK
861:. We even have a fairly brief article on
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306:, and not blogs, forum posts and alike. —
269:unsourced original research. no thanks.
1409:ZK Framework Releases Android Extension
953:I have no objection to userfication.
7:
1443:AJAX, DHTML and JavaScript Libraries
838:prove, to get this article kept, is
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1173:Undelete and userfy for referencing
488:of the page listed in the heading.
341:of the page listed in the heading.
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659:ZK - AJAX without the JavaScript
1514:The above is an archive of the
1319:Zero-code AJAX framework sought
484:The above is an archive of the
337:The above is an archive of the
1386:Ajax Push - ZK versus ICEfaces
1:
1441:ZK is listed in the article
1196:ZK - Ajax without JavaScript
625:ZK - Ajax without JavaScript
471:17:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
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1393:Java Web Frameworks Survey
1326:Flex 3: A Beginner's Guide
1141:Please take a look at the
1037:here is American. *grins*
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668:Ajax with the ZK Framework
476:17:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
373:17:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
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1338:Groovy and Grails Recipes
763:Would userfy on request.
18:Knowledge:Deletion review
1521:Please do not modify it.
1198:and Staeuble/Schumacher
540:Please do not modify it.
491:Please do not modify it.
389:Please do not modify it.
344:Please do not modify it.
100:Please do not modify it.
40:Deletion review archives
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1313:There is an article at
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1143:list of Ajax frameworks
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84:08:46, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
1449:and also mentioned in
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233:User:DrAdamInCA/Civony
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663:IBM Developer's Works
221:First Restore Request
1486:outside this topic.
1366:There is an article
1285:outside this topic.
1200:ZK Developer's Guide
1145:, which include ZK,
918:at work, I suppose.
629:ZK Developer's Guide
1399:; Integration with
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465:overturn and relist
1346:see online version
1334:see online version
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1497:Robbiecheng
1482:) has made
1414:—Preceding
1281:) has made
1159:Robbiecheng
1121:All right,
1105:Ron Ritzman
941:Ron Ritzman
812:Robbiecheng
684:Robbiecheng
1243:WP:ILIKEIT
1127:Biruitorul
1085:Biruitorul
1054:S Marshall
979:EdJohnston
877:S Marshall
840:notability
247:S Marshall
49:2009 May 1
44:2009 April
1372:Linux.com
1336:) and in
1315:InfoWorld
1204:Ekjon Lok
1147:Richfaces
1014:link here
851:Coca-Cola
681:infoQ.com
516:Aervanath
320:82.7.40.7
209:Terryrayc
170:Terryrayc
1493:Overturn
1480:contribs
1428:contribs
1416:unsigned
1379:ICEfaces
1355:in both
1309:Overturn
1257:Overturn
1151:OpenXava
1035:everyone
863:Bic biro
800:MuZemike
20: |
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1220:Protonk
1045:notable
992:Restore
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796:Endorse
786:MBisanz
747:de novo
612:restore
597:article
570:history
449:restore
419:history
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360:Toyetic
271:Spartaz
160:restore
130:history
1457:site.
1401:Grails
1342:Grails
1292:Spiesr
1177:WP:GNG
1123:userfy
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473:Powers
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365:Stifle
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111:Civony
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1472:Tomg7
1459:Tomg7
1420:Tomg7
1101:bitey
701:link
592:watch
585:links
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316:Close
304:WP:RS
152:watch
145:links
52:: -->
16:<
1501:talk
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1377:The
1361:2007
1359:and
1357:2006
1330:Flex
1296:talk
1279:talk
1266:talk
1241:and
1224:talk
1208:talk
1163:talk
1109:talk
1064:Cont
1021:talk
1002:talk
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959:talk
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924:talk
906:talk
887:Cont
857:and
853:and
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728:talk
688:talk
578:logs
562:edit
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257:Cont
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138:logs
122:edit
115:talk
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32:<
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1370:at
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997:DGG
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