Knowledge (XXG)

:Deletion review/Log/2009 September 28 - Knowledge (XXG)

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2614:. I don't want to criticise MuZemike but I do feel that we have been gamed here. The author(s) of the article wrote it in a highly misleading way to make it seem more notable than it was and then used sockpuppetry to make it look like it had more support than it did. I hate the fact that they have been successful. I do note that near the end some people who had initially voted to keep were realising that they had been tricked and were changing their votes but I realise that MuZemike had limited scope for interpreting the result to take this trend into account while there were still keep votes that had not been retracted. We can afford to be charitable and wait until the album does, or does not, get RS reviews but I would not be at all surprised to see this back at AfD quite soon. In the meantime I strongly endorse the decision to cut the article down to a few verifiable paragraphs. -- 251:
recommendations for non-admin closure) will assess the discussion and make a decision to Keep, Delete, Merge, Redirect, or Transwiki the article based on a judgment of the consensus of the discussion. If there has been no obvious consensus to change the status of the article, the person closing the AfD will state No consensus, and the article will be kept." There was no consensus. Therefore the person closing the AfD should have stated "No Consensus". That is why the deletion was improper. As for you, you haven't explained why the arguments for deletion were stronger than those for retention, other than because you say so.
269:. As noted above, mine was one of two keep-type !votes in this discussion, although mine was a "weak keep". However, I agree that the points put forward by those !voting to delete were stronger than the reasons for keeping the article. Black Kite shows all signs of independence in the discussion process, and I accept his decision to delete the article. AfD is not a show of hands; the merits of the arguments are considered more than the number of people on each "side" of the issue. 1672:. My reading of the discussion was that there was a lack of consensus (then again, I was in favor of keeping the category, so though I think that is a fair summary the possiblity exists that I may be looking at this unwittingly through POV-glasses). For that reason (as well as the substantive points made in the underlying discussion), I believe it would be helpful for an admin to take another look at the record.-- 2208:
shown on non-local TV and was not mentioned anywhere on MTV's website)—voters such as Charles Gillingham said that fills the "won or placed in a major competition" criterion of WP:BAND, whereas I think a non-notable award doesn't count as a major competition. As far as I know, no other criteria of WP:BAND or the GNG have been met, as they have no albums released and no non-trivial coverage in reliable sources.
300:, not to mention the fact that the article is being used as a campaigning tool. As I said in the AfD close, if he wins the 2010 election, then fine - at the moment, no. Also, if I was assuming bad faith, there is a hint of COI here. Note: I salted this article after the user who brought this to DRV recreated it immediately after the AfD. If this is overturned, clearly unsalting is appropriate. 2342:-- and deletion of descriptions of the award and the nomination/selection process, the fact that the band was the top three of 190 bands considered, the battle of the bands taking place at a major NY venue (Fillmore at Irving Plaza), the judging being by MTV and prominent VMA singers, the fact that this VMA was awarded at the actual VMA Ceremony in NYC, etc. ( 1937:
conflate this discussion with the merits, or otherwise, of a tranche of other categories which were not themselves nominated and which themselves may have far stronger claims to exist. Nominate them and see what consensus is for deletion or retention, but the idea that this category tree merits an all-or-nothing approach does not bear close examination.
1756:
chaotic, and immature, but we should try to be a little less so. Otto, I strongly object to your attempt to blame people for bringing appeals here. Consensus can change, and bringing obscure processes to general attention is one of the good and proper ways of accomplishing this. I look at CfD more frequently now, and perhaps others will do so also.
2063:
German-American politicians, and the valid deletion arguments pointed this out. Given that the Fooian-American category structure really has no meaningful inclusion threshold (I suppose find one source identifying one ancestor, no matter how far back), do we really want every such ethnicity/nationality category intersected with every occupation?
2348:. Concurrently, Rjanang misleadingly characterized the award as "a little award" and incorrectly stated that it "was only tangentially related to MTV" and that it is not "a real VMA" -- coupled with the deletions, one's understanding that the band was nominated for an MTV VMA could have been impaired. 2442:
Sheesh, it was a joke. If you actually looked at the diff you would see that OhC accidentally left the same message twice and I was teasing him about it. What the hell does my "voting advice" have to do with DRV discussion, and why do you feel it necessary to go back weeks and weeks to try to dig up
2207:
Disagree with the closing administrator's "no consensus" close: while the number of keep and delete votes may be more or less split, most of the keep votes seem to hinge on the band's nomination for an MTV-related award which is not notable (its article on WP was redirected, the award itself was not
1990:
I think deciding that ethnicity only affects some politicians is a great example of modern bias. The world wars of the previous century demonized German-Americans in actual US Government propaganda, and some Germans were interned under the Alien Enemies Act. This basic knowledge of American History
1780:
and I strongly object to your unsupportable claim. You are also mistaken about the supposed need to discuss each of a series of categories before being able to discuss any of the series, as CFD discussions have shown time and again that some categories within a series are fine while others are not.
1228:
and troutslap commenters for making the discussion about the nominator rather than the article. There's no call for that, whatever the previous disagreements have been. DRVs have been closed in the past as "endorse but the usual expected waiting time for renominating is waived," and that would be
2585:
Did you see my response to the same comment by Miami above? I understand that DRV is not AfD2, but as I explained above I think the closing admin missed an important part of the discussion. And I've seen other people come here for blatant forum-shopping and still get a full hearing, so I don't see
1320:
I just read that article and every single cited reference. I know this opinion goes against the current standards and practices of reviewing deletion. Deletion is broken if referencing this bad is standing up simply because a lot of people like it and closing administrators aren't willing to judge
1594:
close. I don't understand the "all or none" argument. Why couldn't consensus be in favor of keeping one but also be in favor of deleting the other? Why does consensus have to be internally logical across all cases? I can point to countless examples where it has not been. I can also easily imagine
274:
I believe that the correct next step is that, if QuantockWarrior feels strongly that Formosa deserves an article, that he crafts a completely new article with stronger claims of notability and less weight to campaign platform planks. However, that should be done in user space right now - there is
1755:
Lack of consensus describes it--it's absurd to delete one of a series of categories at AfD, without general discussion of the concept as a while. There has to be a way of appealing these. We have no precedents, but this sort of inconsistency is a sign of a very immature enterprise. Sure, we're
1152:
and renominate, after 6 months to see if consensus will have changed. i didn't comment at this AfD, but the community makes the requirements for sourcing, and can interpret them as it decides to do. Since IAR always applies, a community decision can always be given as an exception to almost any
1936:
Closing admin made good judgement of consensus in discussion. Admins closing Cfd nominations, except in very rare situations, will only ever take action on categories actually listed for discussion. Accordingly, in this case, that is exactly what the closing admin did - it is unreasonable to
1704:
This has officially become tiresome. Every CFD that gets brought here, you feel compelled to point out how wrong the entire CFD process supposedly is. And you base this on a sample size of practically zero. We all get it, you think CFD is broken. We really don't need to hear it from you again.
2062:
per Occuli. The existence of one Fooian-American category for a particular occupation by no means warrants the existence of ALL such intersections. Some certainly have received significant historical attention, such as African-American politicians, but there was no good argument made for
250:
Mr Rjanag, this is what the guidelines on deletion state: "After seven days have passed, the discussion is moved to Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Old, and a disinterested (i.e. one who has not participated in the deletion discussion) admin or editor in good standing (observing the
173:
No consensus was reached on the discussion page. Views on both sides were expressed, but two people (myself and an administrator by the name of C.Fred) supported its retention. In this case the proper procedure is to revert to keep. Please undelete this page ASAP.
1916:
I'm not sure how the closing administrator determined that the consensus was delete, when it seems clear that this is a classic no consensus. CMBJ hit the nail on the head as to how there is no means to bypass DRV once a category has finally been deleted.
2393:. Similarly, Psantora deleted album information from the band article, describing his rationale with the following edit summary: “remove discography section, they only have one album and its track listing is covered sufficiently on the album's page”. 1284:
in the matter--his active participation in response clearly fueled the fire and distracted from the AfD. Had he not participated, and simply let off-topic comments remain unanswered or answered only once, his desired outcome may have been reached.
1193:
The Keep !votes were pretty much "I like it," "It is notable,""Other crap exists," and especially "I don't like the nominator." More time is needed to see if editors will make keep or delete arguments properly based in policies and guidelines.
1335:. If the closer had latitude to disregard so high a proportion of "keep" !votes from editors in good standing, then there would be no point in the AfD process at all and we might as well just let an admin decide without anyone else's input.— 1084:, would have been impossible to close as delete, but I'd recommend re-listing in the hope of generating a real discussion that actually addresses the points raised by the nominator using reliable sources rather than unverifiable assertions. 2362:. Psantora also, during the discussion, deleted reviews of the band and its work by magazines of long-standing (each over 30 years old) with large readerships (ranging from the hundreds of thousands to the millions) -- specifically 481:
I don't generally hold with challenging the basis for other people's votes, but I do think that a Google News search showing 9 mentions in the local press or online write-ups of his press release does not really establish notability.
1654:
Of course, this is not XfD2 - but #1, there were times in American history when German ethnic heritage was a career killer. #2, there should be a wider range of discussion involving ethnic-American categories and not one-offs.
2335:
that he not delete such pertinent information from the article – especially when the article was under deletion review. To no avail. He followed my request with further deletion of the fact that the award was an MTV VMA -–
2249:
Yes, I understand that this isn't AfD2 and I've never done DRV before partly because I always feared it would be like forum-shopping...but in this case I went ahead because it seemed ok per the second criterion listed at
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close as no consensus. The admin who closed made no errors. This is not the place to reargue the merits of the AfD. Simple question to be considered, is it a reasonable decision based upon the arguments? Yes. If
1858:
the bureaucratic process by gathering sufficient sources and recreating the article...but there is no such recourse for counterintuitive CfD conclusions, because all deleted categories are inadvertently salted by
1101:- not the world's greatest AFD discussion, but there is no egregious failure of process. The nominator of an AFD should bear in mind that their particular interpretation of policy is not necessarily the only one. 675:
This page was deleted a second time around because it was presumed to be no more than a recreation of the first version. This was not the case. The second version, I believe, sufficiently demonstrated notability.
2351:
This is especially troubling as nomination for a major music award (criterion 8), and placing in a major music competition (criterion 9), are two indicia (each sufficient in its own right) of notability under
423:
If I had seen this I might have favored weak keeping per my general attitude about local politicians but consensus and strength of arguments seem to both point in the same direction. Closing was reasonable.
928:, very poor arguments were put forward. The notability concerns weren't disputed or addressed. AFDs are not supposed to be closed by numbers but by strength of arguments. So easily should've been a delete. 728:
If the notability has improved, there is no need for a DRV; just re-create the article with references to show the notability (and enough to demonstrate why it's different than it was when it was deleted).
2649:
Ok, I accept that nothing is going to come of listing this now; I'll wait until after their one album comes out and then re-AfD this assuming they don't suddenly get famous. Feel free to roll up this DRV.
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close as no consensus. Although I felt that the article should be deleted, or more specifically userified until notability can be demonstrated, the no consensus close was absolutely correct. This really
2399:
Rjanag then had the album article deleted. But Psantora did not then restore the discography information to the band article. In fact, Psantora himself then again deleted the discography information (
462:. The !votes to delete didn't address policy in any meaningful way. Not meeting a specialized notability guideline isn't relevant if WP:N is met so all those arguments should have been discounted. 334:, this DR appears to be premature anyway, given that they're supposed to take place after a user has already discussed the issue with the closing admin and failed to reach a resolution with them, and 192:
AfD is not a vote, and the "delete" arguments there were stronger than the "keep" ones. And in your statement above you haven't explained why deletion was "improper", other than because you say so.
1253:
is on those who are trying to prove that the subject is notable, not on those saying it isn't. Otter has also gotten on my nerves before but people shouldn't be taking personal disputes to AfD. --
1280:
closure, mostly per Black Kite, and allow relist. Mind you, when 3/4 comments are accusing the nom of bad faith, that's a sign that something is seriously amiss. Furthermore, Otterathome lacks
2235:
Maybe you should wait a month and re-nominate when the teenyboppers have stopped paying attention, or the band will release a major record that shoots up the charts making the suggestion moot.
1830:
an American politician of Native American descent is a very different context from an American politician of any European background. Thus, Category:Native American politicians is valid, but
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Had all of the editors seen all of that information in the article, the views expressed in favor of the article being notable may well have been even greater in number and stronger.
2436:” Whether he is advising inappropriate voting, or merely chortling in the proposed deletion of the article, I can’t say. But I found that to be curious behavior by a fellow editor. 2290:
Even that discussion may not have reflected fully editors' support for keeping the article. That is because when looking at the article page during the discussion, they did not see
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Striking !vote. There were a bunch of articles that came up in a news search, but looking closer they were largely PR releases or non-RSes with the rest being in-passing. My bad.
441:, even if the close hadn't been a correct reading of consensus in the deletion debate, there is a long consensus that Parliamentary candidate in itself is no claim of notability. 1536: 947: 1888:: I formed the decision based on the consensus available in the discussion. If you think that the other categories should be deleted, then nominate those for CfD as well. -- 2010:- this isn't AFD2, the only question is "did the closer correctly interpret policy-based consensus" and in this example they did. Most of the opposing arguments were per 48: 34: 1020:- There was no delete rationale offered in the AFD aside from the nom's. Closer could have closed no other way. As an aside, recomend nominator to have a nice cup of 2411:. I also note that Rjanang wrote to OhConfucius (an editor with whom he had worked closely on another matter, and who supported him here) “Voting -- As they say, " 156: 43: 2311:
the article is notable, with one reason being that the band was nominated for an MTV VMA, Psantora repeatedly deleted mention of the fact that the award was an
1854:" categories only when said ethnic group is adequately represented in a single CfD. Now, now, if this had been an AfD, a future layman editor could have simply 2190: 899: 1572:
are not deleted, constitutes both POV and obstruction of the category system. Either the category and its content must be restored, or the other categories
1624:, agree with the delete voters that being German-American is not as defining for politicians as some other backgrounds are. The nom's pushiness italicize " 1172:- Of the four responses given in the AfD, three were accusations against Otter, not actual reasons given that the article satisfies WP:N. The fourth was 356:), although in reality my reply would merely have been that I believed my close to be correct and that the user should proceed to DRV, so no harm done. 1245:
which really doesn't do anything but justify Otter's deletion campaign (for good or ill). An argument like "I'm not sure how this doesn't qualify for
352:
No, that didn't take place (the user merely re-created the article only for it to be deleted again under CSD#G4, and has since created it again under
1776:
Excuse me? I have no idea how you can possibly misinterpret my endorsement comment as blaming anyone for anything. It's ridiculous to the point of
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policy. It this case, the people seem to have felt that in this particular case, the level of sourcing was adequate. Who else gets to decide?
1851: 1569: 2322: 335: 526:, the discussion was closed properly, and we don't want Knowledge (XXG) silting up with promotional campaign fluff by wannabe politicians. 235:. The last year's worth of Google News hits are all talking about his aspiring candidacy -- no showing of notability outside that context.-- 1902: 1686:
Sigh, another broken CFD. We have no binding precedents on Knowledge (XXG), so there's no reason why if X-Z is deleted, Y-Z should go too.
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Because I believe that the notability of the subject has significantly improved since and that now, it is actually eligible for an entry.
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AFD part 2, and unless the nominator believes "no consensus" does not reflect the AFD discussion, then there's nothing to discuss here.--
2489:
To whoever's reviewing this discussion: I should point out that Epeefleche, the writer of the TL;DR comment above, is the same person as
2469:
In short, I commend the admin who closed this out as a "keep" for doing so despite the process having been poisoned as reflected above.--
1066:
but allow reAfDing. Impossible to close any other way, as mentioned above, but this is an awful AfD, practically all of the !votes were
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and relax. This article remaining on wikipedia, no matter how much you think it doesn't belong, is not a planet ending catastrophe.
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wishes, he is certainly allowed to wait a few months and bring the article back to AfD is he feels it had not been improved.
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ethnic groups, but not for others" is, in my opinion, deeply disturbing, because it essentially means that we will keep the "
2284:
close as no consensus (the admin’s holding to keep the article). For the reasons discussed extensively on the review page.
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The idea that any time a category is nominated all similar categories have to be nominated along with it is nonsensical.
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Well, "We really don't need to hear it from you again " certainly sounds like personally blaming someone to me.
1738:- no indication that the close was in error, no new information presented here indicating that anything's changed. 756:
Yeah, just go ahead and recreate it. This is, of course, without prejudice to another AfD at editorial discretion.
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some arguments as to why being an Irish-American politician is defining but being a German-American one is not.
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Close was valid, but if it's not significantly improved in short order there's no reason not to try again.
1246: 1067: 315: 297: 1241:- There were basically 4 comments opposed to the nominator (not the nomination), and one that argues that 1010: 971: 822: 319: 252: 175: 79: 2383:
This is troubling as reviews by reliable sources is by itself indicia of notability under criterion 1 of
1118:
with leave to renominate immediately; had it been closed any other way, we would be here overturning it.
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Since Otter didn't mention it, this matter was 'discussed' between us prior to the DR getting started.
612: 563: 114: 2285: 2555: 2474: 2240: 2015: 1996: 1677: 1660: 1450: 1343: 1140: 1089: 1071: 817:– Closure endorsed. Relisting is permitted (preferably by an uninvolved editor), but not mandated. – 357: 301: 1321:
it. You can just throw all of our content policies out the window when mobocracy is the end result.
1991:
is being ignored in deciding that this ethnicity is not, and has never been, an issue in politics.
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It's not the greatest article, but consensus was clear at AfD that the article should be retained.
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that they may be too close to the subject to disinterestedly compare our policies with reality. --
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random crap to discredit me? Next time, try actually reading the diffs that you're presenting.
2374:(which still remains deleted from the article), and also deleted the magazines as references – 2068: 1003: 818: 429: 75: 2384: 2353: 2615: 2576: 2537: 2370: 2356:. Yet Psantora deleted this properly sourced information during the notability discussion. 2113: 1981: 1691: 1230: 1199: 1123: 1102: 1025: 929: 775: 719: 681: 377: 282: 2251: 1860: 1855: 1376: 1021: 925: 2470: 2236: 2148: 1992: 1673: 1656: 1446: 1405: 1384: 1336: 1267: 1136: 1085: 857: 508: 486:
requires multiple independent sources which are on the subject, not ones that mention it.
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per CFD and other arguments here pointing out how "all or none" doesn't apply. --
691:
That deletion was in November 2008. Why are you suddenly bringing this back now?
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The admin didn't close it as keep, he closed it as no consensus. But nice try.
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MTV's VMA Best Breakout New York City Artist Award Contest Official Rules
1801: 1758: 1155: 2387:. Yet Psantora deleted this material during the notability discussion. 1001:
because no admin would have delete that against unanimous consensus. –
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consensus that Formosa not have an encyclopedia article at this time. —
1176:. Relisting for a better consensus seems the practical thing to do. — 1968:
was discussed at length on the same day and was not deleted. We have
1628:" in the nom statement also has not left me with a good impression. 2307:
Particularly troubling is that in the middle of a discussion as to
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Knowledge (XXG):Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive202#AFD_closing
916:
No sources were ever added that weren't trivial and complied with
2033:
CfD2 until an undeletion policy is established for categories.
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was not met. I hope I wasn't out of line, when I suggested to
1607:- I notified the closing admin, as the nom should have done. 2495:
Knowledge (XXG):Sockpuppet investigations/Epeefleche/Archive
1652:
Nothing wrong with the closure, but the discussion was wrong
2252:
WP:DRV#Principal purpose – challenging deletion decisions
1842:". Not only was this guideline partially invalidated by 2412: 2403: 2397: 2394: 2378: 2346: 2340: 2333: 2319: 2316: 2185: 2171: 2163: 2155: 1522: 1508: 1500: 1492: 1249:" isn't a valid argument; in a deletion discussion the 951: 894: 880: 872: 864: 653: 639: 631: 623: 151: 137: 129: 121: 1070:. It may well be notable, but no-one explained why. 950:, also see changes to article since AFD nomination. 406:- closing admin's decision reflected consensus. -- 2493:who was blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet, see 459:(lone voice in the wilderness) easily meets WP:N. 1570:American politicians by ethnic or national origin 2396:Psantora invited Rjanag to join the discussion. 2233:Clearly fails Notability, but this is not AfD2 1379:is policy, and they were firmly rooted there. 1041:. It's impossible to close it any other way. 8: 2127:The following is an archived debate of the 1464:The following is an archived debate of the 836:The following is an archived debate of the 595:The following is an archived debate of the 567:– No action necessary, article re-created. 93:The following is an archived debate of the 2097: 1828:, the relevant guideline, specifies that " 1434: 806: 556: 63: 2586:why this should be dismissed so easily. 1135:- For all the reasons mentioned above.-- 2014:- so nominate those categories too.... 2305:MTV Video Music Award and Competition. 1362:of the Keeps were rooted in policy. — 2294:indicia of notability. Because even 1970:Category:African American politicians 1966:Category:Italian-American politicians 1837:Category:Italian-American politicians 1566:Category:African American politicians 1550:Category:Italian-American politicians 218:. I see no clear error in the close. 7: 1974:Category:Kenyan-American politicians 1846:, but the notion of "categories for 1832:Category:German-American politicians 1562:Category:Jewish American politicians 1558:Category:Polish-American politicians 1546:Category:German-American_politicians 1482:Category:German-American politicians 1442:Category:German-American politicians 2681:of the page listed in the heading. 2086:of the page listed in the heading. 1554:Category:Irish-American politicians 1423:of the page listed in the heading. 1400:and no immediate relist. Per DGG. 795:of the page listed in the heading. 545:of the page listed in the heading. 2651: 2631:no-consensus to keep or delete. -- 2587: 2498: 2444: 2416: 2255: 2209: 1629: 730: 692: 568: 336:there is no evidence that happened 296:my own close; simply doesn't pass 193: 28: 330:) 17:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1852:Ethnicity-Nationality occupation 389:. I see no error in this close. 2677:The above is an archive of the 2082:The above is an archive of the 1824:for lack of broader consensus. 1419:The above is an archive of the 791:The above is an archive of the 541:The above is an archive of the 18:Knowledge (XXG):Deletion review 2669:12:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2641:12:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2624:09:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2605:11:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2581:08:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2564:06:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2542:06:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2516:11:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2479:05:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2462:11:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2434:04:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC) 2273:03:54, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2245:03:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2227:00:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2118:15:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1986:12:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC) 1955:11:59, 30 September 2009 (UTC) 1927:01:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 1909:21:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1881:19:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1811:12:03, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 1791:18:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1768:17:54, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1748:16:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1731:13:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1715:16:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1696:08:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1682:07:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1665:03:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1647:02:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1617:01:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1600:01:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1586:00:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1273:21:42, 30 September 2009 (UTC) 1234:01:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC) 1221:18:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 1204:17:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 1186:14:56, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 1165:11:32, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 1145:08:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 1128:08:12, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 1111:22:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1094:17:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1077:17:33, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1059:17:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 1034:14:33, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1013:13:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 994:13:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 963:12:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 938:11:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 780:17:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 766:15:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 748:14:54, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 724:12:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 710:12:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 686:12:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 586:19:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 451:19:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 434:16:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 416:13:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 399:09:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 382:20:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 372:, valid reading of consensus. 363:17:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 348:17:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 307:17:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 287:16:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 261:16:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 245:15:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 228:15:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 211:15:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 184:14:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 1: 2360:Reviews from reliable sources 2296:as the discussion was ongoing 2073:13:52, 6 October 2009 (UTC) 2051:06:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC) 2021:20:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC) 2001:16:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC) 1455:07:24, 7 October 2009 (UTC) 1410:13:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC) 1389:17:25, 2 October 2009 (UTC) 1372:15:45, 2 October 2009 (UTC) 1354:07:46, 2 October 2009 (UTC) 1313:20:08, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 1295:03:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC) 827:18:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC) 531:10:51, 3 October 2009 (UTC) 513:23:52, 2 October 2009 (UTC) 496:19:14, 2 October 2009 (UTC) 472:13:25, 2 October 2009 (UTC) 84:02:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC) 2704: 2571:, DRV is not AFD round 2. 2684:Please do not modify it. 2327:the award's MTV VMA logo 2134:Please do not modify it. 2089:Please do not modify it. 1914:Overturn as no consensus 1471:Please do not modify it. 1426:Please do not modify it. 843:Please do not modify it. 798:Please do not modify it. 602:Please do not modify it. 548:Please do not modify it. 100:Please do not modify it. 40:Deletion review archives 1366:The Hand That Feeds You 1180:The Hand That Feeds You 74:– Deletion endorsed. – 2131:of the article above. 2029:In all fairness, this 1468:of the article above. 1445:– Deletion endorsed – 840:of the article above. 599:of the article above. 97:of the article above. 920:. The article failed 2413:vote early and often 320:User:QuantockWarrior 1318:Overturn and delete 2365:Seventeen Magazine 2315:. For example at 1243:other stuff exists 1229:appropriate here. 1174:WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS 944:Related Discussion 354:Mark Formosa (PPC) 2691: 2690: 2667: 2603: 2514: 2460: 2432: 2271: 2225: 2096: 2095: 1670:Lack of consensus 1645: 1433: 1432: 1311: 805: 804: 746: 708: 613:Gatehouse Gazette 584: 564:Gatehouse Gazette 555: 554: 209: 59:28 September 2009 49:2009 September 29 35:2009 September 27 2695: 2686: 2660: 2656: 2596: 2592: 2507: 2503: 2453: 2449: 2425: 2421: 2371:Queens Chronicle 2264: 2260: 2218: 2214: 2202: 2197: 2188: 2174: 2166: 2158: 2136: 2098: 2091: 2049: 2047: 1951: 1950: 1947: 1905: 1900: 1895: 1879: 1877: 1840:should not exist 1638: 1634: 1622:Endorse deletion 1544:The deletion of 1539: 1534: 1525: 1511: 1503: 1495: 1473: 1435: 1428: 1367: 1351: 1341: 1305: 1270: 1264: 1261: 1258: 1181: 1006: 985: 911: 906: 897: 883: 875: 867: 845: 807: 800: 739: 735: 701: 697: 670: 665: 656: 642: 634: 626: 604: 577: 573: 557: 550: 202: 198: 190:Endorse deletion 168: 163: 154: 140: 132: 124: 102: 64: 53: 33: 2703: 2702: 2698: 2697: 2696: 2694: 2693: 2692: 2682: 2679:deletion review 2666: 2654: 2602: 2590: 2556:MichaelQSchmidt 2513: 2501: 2459: 2447: 2431: 2419: 2332:I requested at 2270: 2258: 2224: 2212: 2198: 2196: 2193: 2184: 2183: 2177: 2170: 2169: 2162: 2161: 2154: 2153: 2132: 2129:deletion review 2087: 2084:deletion review 2041: 2034: 2012:WP:ALLORNOTHING 1948: 1945: 1944: 1903: 1898: 1893: 1871: 1864: 1644: 1632: 1597:Good Ol’factory 1535: 1533: 1530: 1521: 1520: 1514: 1507: 1506: 1499: 1498: 1491: 1490: 1469: 1466:deletion review 1424: 1421:deletion review 1365: 1350: 1347: 1337: 1268: 1262: 1259: 1256: 1179: 1004: 991: 990:Call me MoP! :D 972: 907: 905: 902: 893: 892: 886: 879: 878: 871: 870: 863: 862: 841: 838:deletion review 796: 793:deletion review 770:Ok, done that. 745: 733: 707: 695: 666: 664: 661: 652: 651: 645: 638: 637: 630: 629: 622: 621: 600: 597:deletion review 583: 571: 546: 543:deletion review 253:QuantockWarrior 208: 196: 176:QuantockWarrior 164: 162: 159: 150: 149: 143: 136: 135: 128: 127: 120: 119: 98: 95:deletion review 62: 55: 54: 51: 46: 37: 31: 26: 25: 24: 12: 11: 5: 2701: 2699: 2689: 2688: 2673: 2672: 2662: 2644: 2643: 2626: 2609: 2608: 2607: 2598: 2566: 2544: 2521: 2520: 2519: 2518: 2509: 2487: 2467: 2466: 2465: 2464: 2455: 2427: 2288: 2287: 2278: 2277: 2276: 2275: 2266: 2220: 2205: 2204: 2194: 2181: 2175: 2167: 2159: 2151: 2139: 2138: 2123: 2122: 2121: 2120: 2108:– Withdrawn – 2094: 2093: 2078: 2077: 2076: 2075: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2053: 2024: 2023: 2005: 2004: 2003: 1958: 1957: 1939: 1938: 1930: 1929: 1911: 1883: 1818: 1817: 1816: 1815: 1814: 1813: 1794: 1793: 1771: 1770: 1750: 1733: 1720: 1719: 1718: 1717: 1699: 1698: 1684: 1667: 1649: 1640: 1619: 1602: 1542: 1541: 1531: 1518: 1512: 1504: 1496: 1488: 1476: 1475: 1460: 1459: 1458: 1457: 1431: 1430: 1415: 1414: 1413: 1412: 1395: 1394: 1393: 1392: 1391: 1348: 1330: 1323:SchmuckyTheCat 1315: 1297: 1275: 1236: 1223: 1206: 1188: 1167: 1147: 1130: 1113: 1096: 1082:Weakly endorse 1079: 1064:Weakly endorse 1061: 1036: 1015: 996: 989: 965: 914: 913: 903: 890: 884: 876: 868: 860: 848: 847: 832: 831: 830: 829: 803: 802: 787: 786: 785: 784: 783: 782: 754: 753: 752: 751: 750: 741: 703: 673: 672: 662: 649: 643: 635: 627: 619: 607: 606: 591: 590: 589: 588: 579: 553: 552: 537: 536: 535: 534: 520: 519: 518: 517: 516: 515: 476: 475: 453: 436: 418: 401: 384: 367: 366: 365: 309: 290: 289: 271: 270: 248: 247: 230: 213: 204: 171: 170: 160: 147: 141: 133: 125: 117: 105: 104: 89: 88: 87: 86: 61: 56: 47: 44:2009 September 38: 30: 29: 27: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 2700: 2687: 2685: 2680: 2675: 2674: 2671: 2670: 2665: 2659: 2658: 2648: 2642: 2638: 2634: 2633:SarekOfVulcan 2630: 2627: 2625: 2621: 2617: 2613: 2610: 2606: 2601: 2595: 2594: 2584: 2583: 2582: 2578: 2574: 2570: 2567: 2565: 2561: 2557: 2553: 2548: 2545: 2543: 2539: 2535: 2531: 2526: 2523: 2522: 2517: 2512: 2506: 2505: 2496: 2492: 2488: 2485: 2484: 2483: 2482: 2481: 2480: 2476: 2472: 2463: 2458: 2452: 2451: 2441: 2440: 2439: 2438: 2437: 2435: 2430: 2424: 2423: 2414: 2410: 2409:Voting advice 2406: 2404: 2402: 2398: 2395: 2392: 2388: 2386: 2381: 2379: 2377: 2373: 2372: 2367: 2366: 2361: 2357: 2355: 2349: 2347: 2345: 2341: 2339: 2334: 2330: 2328: 2324: 2320: 2317: 2314: 2310: 2306: 2302: 2299: 2297: 2293: 2286: 2283: 2280: 2279: 2274: 2269: 2263: 2262: 2253: 2248: 2247: 2246: 2242: 2238: 2234: 2231: 2230: 2229: 2228: 2223: 2217: 2216: 2201: 2192: 2187: 2180: 2173: 2165: 2157: 2150: 2146: 2143: 2142: 2141: 2140: 2137: 2135: 2130: 2125: 2124: 2119: 2115: 2111: 2107: 2106: 2102: 2101: 2100: 2099: 2092: 2090: 2085: 2080: 2079: 2074: 2070: 2066: 2061: 2058: 2057: 2052: 2048: 2046: 2045: 2039: 2038: 2032: 2028: 2027: 2026: 2025: 2022: 2019: 2018: 2013: 2009: 2006: 2002: 1998: 1994: 1989: 1988: 1987: 1983: 1979: 1975: 1971: 1967: 1963: 1960: 1959: 1956: 1953: 1952: 1941: 1940: 1935: 1932: 1931: 1928: 1924: 1920: 1915: 1912: 1910: 1906: 1901: 1896: 1891: 1887: 1886:Closing admin 1884: 1882: 1878: 1876: 1875: 1869: 1868: 1862: 1857: 1853: 1849: 1845: 1841: 1839: 1838: 1833: 1827: 1823: 1820: 1819: 1812: 1808: 1804: 1803: 1798: 1797: 1796: 1795: 1792: 1788: 1784: 1779: 1775: 1774: 1773: 1772: 1769: 1765: 1761: 1760: 1754: 1751: 1749: 1745: 1741: 1737: 1734: 1732: 1729: 1725: 1722: 1721: 1716: 1712: 1708: 1703: 1702: 1701: 1700: 1697: 1693: 1689: 1685: 1683: 1679: 1675: 1671: 1668: 1666: 1662: 1658: 1653: 1650: 1648: 1643: 1637: 1636: 1627: 1623: 1620: 1618: 1614: 1610: 1606: 1603: 1601: 1598: 1593: 1590: 1589: 1588: 1587: 1583: 1579: 1575: 1571: 1567: 1563: 1559: 1555: 1551: 1547: 1538: 1529: 1524: 1517: 1510: 1502: 1494: 1487: 1483: 1480: 1479: 1478: 1477: 1474: 1472: 1467: 1462: 1461: 1456: 1452: 1448: 1444: 1443: 1439: 1438: 1437: 1436: 1429: 1427: 1422: 1417: 1416: 1411: 1407: 1403: 1399: 1396: 1390: 1386: 1382: 1378: 1375: 1374: 1373: 1370: 1368: 1361: 1358:Do note that 1357: 1356: 1355: 1352: 1344: 1342: 1340: 1334: 1331: 1328: 1324: 1319: 1316: 1314: 1309: 1304: 1303: 1298: 1296: 1292: 1288: 1283: 1279: 1276: 1274: 1271: 1266: 1265: 1252: 1248: 1247:WP:NOTABILITY 1244: 1240: 1237: 1235: 1232: 1227: 1224: 1222: 1218: 1214: 1210: 1207: 1205: 1201: 1197: 1192: 1189: 1187: 1184: 1182: 1175: 1171: 1168: 1166: 1162: 1158: 1157: 1151: 1148: 1146: 1142: 1138: 1134: 1131: 1129: 1125: 1121: 1117: 1114: 1112: 1108: 1104: 1100: 1097: 1095: 1091: 1087: 1083: 1080: 1078: 1075: 1074: 1069: 1068:WP:ITSNOTABLE 1065: 1062: 1060: 1056: 1052: 1048: 1044: 1040: 1037: 1035: 1031: 1027: 1023: 1019: 1016: 1014: 1011: 1008: 1007: 1000: 997: 995: 992: 986: 983: 979: 975: 969: 966: 964: 960: 956: 952: 949: 945: 942: 941: 940: 939: 935: 931: 927: 923: 919: 910: 901: 896: 889: 882: 874: 866: 859: 855: 852: 851: 850: 849: 846: 844: 839: 834: 833: 828: 824: 820: 816: 815: 811: 810: 809: 808: 801: 799: 794: 789: 788: 781: 777: 773: 769: 768: 767: 763: 759: 755: 749: 744: 738: 737: 727: 726: 725: 721: 717: 713: 712: 711: 706: 700: 699: 690: 689: 688: 687: 683: 679: 669: 660: 655: 648: 641: 633: 625: 618: 614: 611: 610: 609: 608: 605: 603: 598: 593: 592: 587: 582: 576: 575: 566: 565: 561: 560: 559: 558: 551: 549: 544: 539: 538: 532: 529: 525: 522: 521: 514: 510: 506: 503: 499: 498: 497: 493: 489: 488:Sam Blacketer 485: 480: 479: 478: 477: 474: 473: 469: 465: 461: 458: 454: 452: 448: 444: 443:Sam Blacketer 440: 437: 435: 431: 427: 422: 419: 417: 413: 409: 405: 402: 400: 396: 392: 388: 385: 383: 379: 375: 371: 368: 364: 361: 360: 355: 351: 350: 349: 345: 341: 337: 333: 329: 325: 321: 317: 316:WP:POLITICIAN 313: 310: 308: 305: 304: 299: 298:WP:POLITICIAN 295: 292: 291: 288: 284: 280: 279: 273: 272: 268: 265: 264: 263: 262: 258: 254: 246: 242: 238: 237:SarekOfVulcan 234: 231: 229: 225: 221: 217: 214: 212: 207: 201: 200: 191: 188: 187: 186: 185: 181: 177: 167: 158: 153: 146: 139: 131: 123: 116: 112: 109: 108: 107: 106: 103: 101: 96: 91: 90: 85: 81: 77: 73: 72: 68: 67: 66: 65: 60: 57: 50: 45: 41: 36: 23: 19: 2683: 2676: 2646: 2645: 2628: 2611: 2568: 2546: 2529: 2524: 2491:User:VMAsNYC 2468: 2408: 2407: 2400: 2390: 2389: 2382: 2375: 2369: 2363: 2359: 2358: 2350: 2343: 2337: 2331: 2312: 2308: 2304: 2303: 2300: 2295: 2291: 2289: 2281: 2232: 2206: 2133: 2126: 2103: 2088: 2081: 2059: 2043: 2042: 2036: 2035: 2030: 2016: 2007: 1961: 1942: 1933: 1913: 1885: 1873: 1872: 1866: 1865: 1847: 1835: 1829: 1821: 1800: 1778:non sequitur 1777: 1757: 1752: 1735: 1723: 1669: 1651: 1625: 1621: 1604: 1591: 1576:be deleted. 1573: 1543: 1470: 1463: 1440: 1425: 1418: 1397: 1363: 1359: 1338: 1332: 1317: 1300: 1277: 1254: 1238: 1226:Allow relist 1225: 1208: 1190: 1177: 1169: 1154: 1149: 1132: 1116:Weak endorse 1115: 1098: 1081: 1072: 1063: 1038: 1017: 1005:Juliancolton 1002: 998: 981: 977: 973: 967: 943: 915: 842: 835: 819:IronGargoyle 812: 797: 790: 674: 601: 594: 562: 547: 540: 523: 501: 456: 455: 438: 420: 403: 386: 369: 358: 331: 311: 302: 293: 276: 266: 249: 232: 215: 189: 172: 111:Mark Formosa 99: 92: 76:IronGargoyle 71:Mark Formosa 69: 58: 2616:DanielRigal 2552:User:Rjanag 2391:Discography 1282:clean hands 1231:Chick Bowen 1103:Ben Kidwell 1086:Tim Vickers 1026:Umbralcorax 930:Otterathome 332:In addition 2471:Epeefleche 2237:Miami33139 2145:The Shells 2105:The Shells 2017:Black Kite 1993:Miami33139 1674:Epeefleche 1657:Miami33139 1568:and other 1447:Eluchil404 1339:S Marshall 1137:Epeefleche 1073:Black Kite 854:Tubefilter 814:Tubefilter 359:Black Kite 303:Black Kite 1861:WP:CSD#G4 1848:important 1844:consensus 1826:WP:CATGRS 1578:Urban XII 528:Lankiveil 2664:contribs 2647:Withdraw 2600:contribs 2511:contribs 2457:contribs 2429:contribs 2268:contribs 2222:contribs 1972:but not 1919:Alansohn 1856:bypassed 1822:Overturn 1783:Otto4711 1753:Overturn 1740:Otto4711 1728:Kbdank71 1707:Otto4711 1642:contribs 1609:Tim Song 1548:, while 1287:Jclemens 1213:Alansohn 1051:Tim Song 1043:Tim Song 955:Milowent 758:Tim Song 743:contribs 705:contribs 581:contribs 457:Overturn 340:Saalstin 324:Saalstin 220:Tim Song 206:contribs 20:‎ | 2629:Endorse 2612:Comment 2569:Endorse 2547:Endorse 2525:Endorse 2385:WP:BAND 2354:WP:BAND 2313:MTV VMA 2282:Endorse 2200:restore 2164:history 2065:Postdlf 2060:Endorse 2044:C M B J 2008:Endorse 1962:Endorse 1934:Endorse 1890:King of 1874:C M B J 1736:Endorse 1724:Endorse 1605:Comment 1592:Endorse 1537:restore 1501:history 1398:Endorse 1333:Endorse 1278:Endorse 1209:Endorse 1150:Endorse 1133:Endorse 1099:Endorse 1039:Endorse 1018:Endorse 999:Endorse 968:Comment 909:restore 873:history 668:restore 632:history 524:Endorse 502:Endorse 439:Endorse 426:JoshuaZ 421:endorse 404:Endorse 387:Endorse 370:Endorse 312:Endorse 294:Endorse 267:Endorse 233:Endorse 216:Endorse 166:restore 130:history 2573:Stifle 2534:Michig 2110:Stifle 1978:Occuli 1688:Stifle 1377:WP:IAR 1251:burden 1239:Relist 1196:Edison 1191:Relist 1170:Relist 1120:Stifle 984:uppets 976:aster 926:WP:WEB 772:Ottens 716:Ottens 678:Ottens 374:Stifle 278:C.Fred 2530:isn't 2415:" ;) 2329:). 2186:watch 2179:links 1807:talk 1764:talk 1523:watch 1516:links 1402:Hobit 1381:Hobit 1308:Help! 1161:talk 895:watch 888:links 654:watch 647:links 505:Hobit 464:Hobit 391:Kevin 152:watch 145:links 52:: --> 16:< 2657:anaɢ 2637:talk 2620:talk 2593:anaɢ 2577:talk 2560:talk 2538:talk 2504:anaɢ 2475:talk 2450:anaɢ 2422:anaɢ 2380:. 2368:and 2325:and 2318:and 2261:anaɢ 2241:talk 2215:anaɢ 2172:logs 2156:edit 2149:talk 2114:talk 2069:talk 1997:talk 1982:talk 1949:damr 1923:talk 1834:and 1787:talk 1744:talk 1711:talk 1692:talk 1678:talk 1661:talk 1635:anaɢ 1626:must 1613:talk 1582:talk 1574:must 1509:logs 1493:edit 1486:talk 1451:talk 1406:talk 1385:talk 1360:none 1349:Cont 1327:talk 1291:talk 1217:talk 1200:talk 1141:talk 1124:talk 1107:talk 1090:talk 1055:talk 1047:talk 1030:talk 959:talk 934:talk 924:and 922:WP:N 918:WP:N 881:logs 865:edit 858:talk 823:talk 776:talk 762:talk 736:anaɢ 720:talk 698:anaɢ 682:talk 640:logs 624:edit 617:talk 574:anaɢ 509:talk 492:talk 484:WP:N 468:talk 447:talk 430:talk 412:talk 408:Whpq 395:talk 378:talk 344:talk 328:talk 283:talk 257:talk 241:talk 224:talk 199:anaɢ 180:talk 138:logs 122:edit 115:talk 80:talk 32:< 2405:). 2401:see 2376:see 2344:see 2338:see 2309:why 2292:all 2191:XfD 2189:) ( 1863:. 1802:DGG 1759:DGG 1528:XfD 1526:) ( 1302:Guy 1156:DGG 1022:tea 900:XfD 898:) ( 659:XfD 657:) ( 157:XfD 155:) ( 22:Log 2639:) 2622:) 2579:) 2562:) 2540:) 2497:. 2477:) 2243:) 2116:) 2071:) 2037:— 2031:is 1999:) 1984:) 1964:– 1925:) 1907:â™  1867:— 1809:) 1789:) 1766:) 1746:) 1713:) 1694:) 1680:) 1663:) 1615:) 1584:) 1564:, 1560:, 1556:, 1552:, 1453:) 1408:) 1387:) 1293:) 1260:am 1257:At 1219:) 1202:) 1163:) 1143:) 1126:) 1109:) 1092:) 1057:) 1032:) 1009:| 987:- 980:f 961:) 953:-- 946:: 936:) 825:) 778:) 764:) 722:) 684:) 511:) 494:) 470:) 449:) 432:) 414:) 397:) 380:) 346:) 338:-- 285:) 259:) 243:) 226:) 182:) 82:) 42:: 2661:/ 2655:ʨ 2653:r 2635:( 2618:( 2597:/ 2591:ʨ 2589:r 2575:( 2558:( 2536:( 2508:/ 2502:ʨ 2500:r 2473:( 2454:/ 2448:ʨ 2446:r 2426:/ 2420:ʨ 2418:r 2265:/ 2259:ʨ 2257:r 2239:( 2219:/ 2213:ʨ 2211:r 2203:) 2195:| 2182:| 2176:| 2168:| 2160:| 2152:| 2147:( 2112:( 2067:( 1995:( 1980:( 1946:X 1921:( 1904:♣ 1899:♦ 1894:♥ 1805:( 1785:( 1762:( 1742:( 1709:( 1690:( 1676:( 1659:( 1639:/ 1633:ʨ 1631:r 1611:( 1580:( 1540:) 1532:| 1519:| 1513:| 1505:| 1497:| 1489:| 1484:( 1449:( 1404:( 1383:( 1369:: 1345:/ 1329:) 1325:( 1310:) 1306:( 1289:( 1269:é ­ 1263:a 1215:( 1198:( 1183:: 1159:( 1139:( 1122:( 1105:( 1088:( 1053:( 1045:( 1028:( 982:P 978:o 974:M 957:( 932:( 912:) 904:| 891:| 885:| 877:| 869:| 861:| 856:( 821:( 774:( 760:( 740:/ 734:ʨ 732:r 718:( 702:/ 696:ʨ 694:r 680:( 671:) 663:| 650:| 644:| 636:| 628:| 620:| 615:( 578:/ 572:ʨ 570:r 533:. 507:( 490:( 466:( 445:( 428:( 410:( 393:( 376:( 342:( 326:( 281:( 255:( 239:( 222:( 203:/ 197:ʨ 195:r 178:( 169:) 161:| 148:| 142:| 134:| 126:| 118:| 113:( 78:(

Index

Knowledge (XXG):Deletion review
Log
2009 September 27
Deletion review archives
2009 September
2009 September 29
28 September 2009
Mark Formosa
IronGargoyle
talk
02:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
deletion review
Mark Formosa
talk
edit
history
logs
links
watch
XfD
restore
QuantockWarrior
talk
14:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
rʨanaɢ
contribs
15:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Tim Song
talk
15:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

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