Knowledge (XXG):Featured article candidates/Weise's law/archive1

1393:

anything that casual readers can glom onto - even if what it's demonstrating is actually a similarity rather than a difference. But I read the examples in Kloekhorst's paper, which are all hypothetical old words and about as clear as mud, so... respect that this is hard to do, since modern languages have concealed the difference leaving us with Old Avestan and reconstructed PIE. Basically, some sort of "here's a reconstructed word with *ḱ, here's a word that should have a *ḱ but really has a *k because it's followed by *r, here's a word that has a *ḱ and is followed by *r*i" might be nice. While I think this would be helpful, it's not enough to block promotion - just something to strongly think about if there's a good example in the sources. (And if there are good examples in

1314:

contexts, such as intros to the field and papers in which Albanian and Armenian do not constitute a significant portion of the data). And I found this to remain the case as I developed the article, though scholarship is changing somewhat on what exactly the dichotomy is as a whole. That's why I simply put "have a controversial placement" rather than implying any sort of majority opinion because I don't think any polls or reviews of the literature would support an outright majority. And if they did, it might be outside the scope of this article; Weise's law affects these two languages, so for the purposes of most of scholarship on the law, they are categorized as such and that's really all the reader needs to know.

440:"Although, because the results of Weise's law seem more extensive outside the Indo-Iranian languages, Kloekhorst notes that it is likely that a secondary wave of depalatalization law took place at a later date in each of those language families." ' Kloekhorst notes that it is likely that a secondary wave of depalatalization law took place at a later date in each of those language families, because the results of Weise's law seem more extensive outside the Indo-Iranian languages' seems easier to parse. 1423:

consonants may have been more widespread, but PIE is reconstructed through the comparative method and every daughter language appears to have depalatalized either all palatals (centum languages), all palatals before resonants (satem languages, except Indo-Iranian), or all palatals before *r alone (Indo-Iranian). This is why Kloekhorst doesn't give examples, only possible counterexamples. I gave the Avestan example from de Vaan as a helpful explanation, but both Kroonen (

2367:

attempt to recreate the map without coloration if you insist. As for the SA article, I'm not sure what's objectionable about it; the author cites or interviews reputable linguists (Olander, Clackson, etc.) and Renfrew's claims are the minority, but well-known and have some support; I think he's wrong (see Goedegebuure source), but there are linguists who agree with his reasoning and he holds a high position at a reputable institution. It's a reputable source per

2351:

this through Knowledge (XXG) before. Re: quoting strategy, there isn't one. Mostly, if I thought the context were relevant or the quote particularly useful, I added it. I tended to exclude quotes that were particularly technical. Re: inconsistent IDs, I'm not sure what you mean. Could you give an example? Re: the plate, should any additional licensing be necessary, given that Germany has freedom of panorama? Thanks again for the review.

1113:

differentiated as a result of that depalatalization; Weise's law basically causes the "pseudo-centumization" of certain palatal sounds. I'm also concerned that using attested languages like Latin and Sanskrit may be unhelpful to the layperson because they will invariably show forms that are the result of later sound changes and may further confuse someone unfamiliar with historical linguistics.

992:. As for the "merge with" issue, I asked a non-linguist whether that term was clear and they confirmed your concerns, so some thoughts: With respect to changing it to "become indistinguishable from" as an alternative, I'm concerned this may lead to the belief that they are still somehow distinct in some meaningful way; linguists do distinguish 2442:

down some pages. Books for 25, 26, and 27 were already linked; are you having trouble accessing them for some reason? I think that should cover everything, but of course let me know if you need me to provide any more sources. ETA: I have also replaced the image as discussed. The citations are nested in the Commons, but present.

2441:

Okay, so I've found links for Adams et al. 1997, Monier-Williams 1899, and Beekes 2011 on the Internet Archive. Your user page also indicates that you have access to JSTOR; if that's true, you should have no problem getting Trask 2000 through the link provided. If not, just let me know and I can copy

2412:

and changing the caption accordingly? I think SA is fine for what it is here, but if you really feel strongly about it, say so and I will look for a different source. In any case, let me know how you would like me to transmit the copyrighted pages you requested above. I'm happy to type out the quotes

2003:

26 supports the whole claim: "PIE: *krep- oblique case-stem of the PIE etymon, *krp-". Matasović uses "case-stem" instead of the term "zero-grade", but they refer to the same thing. As for 27, the page is correct (p. 244); Kroonen even gives the same Old Avestan example as de Vaan and shows both the

1469:

Is there a logic between the use of quotes in the references? Also, many inconsistent IDs in the sources section. "Kleiner, Kurt (19 February 2024). "New Linguistics Technique Could Reveal Who Spoke the First Indo-European Languages". Scientific American. Retrieved 1 August 2024." is a somewhat so-so

1934:

Okay, I've cited the definition of zero-grade per Beekes and changed the wording for the first concern. For the second concern, *ḱ and r are separated in the reflex (see the romanization provided) and de Vaan says that the zero-grade is affected as a result of Weise's law and may go back to *ḱrp- on

1276:

Yeah, I originally put this in here to get in front of any head-scratching coming from someone with linguistics knowledge, especially since I originally wrote an extremely technical article (i.e., one in which a reader would only have gotten that far with some background in PIE linguistics). I think

1911:

I've seen this page, but I don't get "The effects of the law are commonly found in zero-grade stems – that is, stems without their typical vowel – which often receive inserted vowels in the daughter languages in order to ease pronunciation" from it nor "Although the original palatovelar *ḱ does not

1422:

With respect to the table, I took both yours and UC's table hopes to heart and I genuinely cannot think of a way to adequately tablify the concept without it descending into extreme theoretical historical linguistics. In effect, what Kloekhorst is arguing is that at an earlier date, the palatalized

1388:

I know that having some commentary or suggestions is common to sort of "prove" that the reviewer actually read the article, but I'm a little gunshy of making such on a highly technical topic, and when UC above has already massaged the prose pretty well. I did read Kloekhorst's paper for comparison

125:

Ever wonder why Greek and Sanskrit cognates involving gutturals don't always match up like you expect and usually before an /r/ sound? Yeah, me either. But in 1881, a German linguist commented on this oddity and proposed a sound law to explain it. "Largely forgotten by the scholarly world", the law

2385:

Beekes' definitions would work. With the maps, I mostly want to see where the background map comes from. The thing with SA is that such popular science things often have somewhat lower standards than journals and thus may not satisfy the "high-quality" requirement of WIAFA. Although I confess that

2350:

Thanks for the source/image review. I'm planning to fix these sometime in the next 24 hours or so, barring any unforeseen circumstances. I've responded to a few things above. As for getting copies of the pages, how should I go about doing that, given that the source is copyrighted? I've never done

1392:

The main concern is the one that both Gog & UC alluded to above: that this topic is going to be a rough read for "casual" readers who aren't familiar with linguistics and the details of PIE theories. I agree with UC that some sort of table of sample words would be a nice-to-have as something,

2366:

Okay, got to more of these. A few questions/comments. For the articulation images, can just I cite Beekes's definition of assibilation (palatalized consonant → affricate or sibilant) or is there something else that should be cited? For the map, I've cited the general areas where these were. I can

1313:

My take on the scholarship is that "Albanian and Armenian are satem languages" comprises a plurality – but not a majority – of opinions on the topic. I'd say "Albanian and Armenian exist outside the dichotomy/exist on a spectrum within the dichotomy" is a close second (usually in "inoffensive"

1203:

are commonly mentioned in the field's literature, whereas even narrow etymologies of Sanskrit don't mention it at all. Still, I'm willing to stand down on this if you think Kloekhorst successfully brought it back to scholarly attention, but I'm skeptical. That all said, I've dated the quote as

1112:

page, which demonstrates the difference, which I suppose I could add with real examples (instead of just descriptions) to show the difference between the two fairly generally. The problem is, in the cases in which Weise's law applies, the difference between centum and satem languages can't be

2739:

Um, the captions of the images. The file descriptions don't explain why the particular tongue movements should be palatal stops, alveolar fricatives or alveolar sibilant affricatives, so the caption needs a source. Beekes p 301 tells me what an alveolar is, the others need an explainer too.

943:

causes the depalatalization of the palatovelar consonants *ḱ *ǵ *ǵʰ in certain contexts. In short, when *ḱ *ǵ *ǵʰ are followed by *r, they depalatalize and thereby merge with the plain velars *k *g *gʰ, respectively, unless the *r is followed by *i or the palatalized form is restored by

819:

Yes, fair enough. I did a source check for the image and have changed the caption to reflect that the the darker green reflects the estimated range of the Yamnaya culture specifically and added some contextual comments about the steppe hypothesis with appropriate sources.

940:

The biggest point throughout -- I still think we could do more to help non-linguists understand what is going on here, particularly in the lead. I admit that I was never particularly good at philology in undergrad, but I've got pretty good training in it and find

2724:

Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Beekes gives the example of (ḱ) → on the page cited and is used to express "an affricate with a final s-sound as the second element". What needs to be explained further? Do I just need to add something like "p. 303 § Assibilation"?

130:. This article may be of interest to you if you speak a language affected by the law, including a Balto-Slavic language, Albanian, Armenian, or any of the Indo-Iranian languages, such as Farsi or Hindi. I would like to extend my thanks, first and foremost, to 2060:, PGmc *h is the typical reflex of PIE *k and *ḱ, so we should expect most PIE roots beginning with *k or *ḱ to appear in the *h section of PGmc dictionaries. If you read the *hrefiz- entry, you should see where Kroonen points to the *krep- root etymology. 907:-- I think I'm probably at the end of my expertise here, but I think we're in a much better place -- balancing technical detail and comprehensibility in an article like this is extremely tricky, and as far as I can see it's about as good as it can be. 1586:

Yes, I removed that since spotcheck began; while it is true that the tongue moves, it's not pertinent to the process of assibilation (e.g., → is still assibilation even though the place of articulation remains the same), so I removed it pursuant to

376:"The law must have occurred by". I know what you mean, but I am unsure that it works as prose. Perhaps unpack "The law" to say just what it was that "must have occurred by"? Similarly with references to "the law" in the last sentence of the paragraph. 624:

If I'm reading you correctly, discussion on this is found in the "Relative chronology" section, where I've written about the two competing views: Kortlandt (Proto-Indo-Iranian only) and Kloekhorst (late Proto-Indo-European, excluding the Anatolian

996:. In other words, something may not be distinguishable in discourse, but may still be distinguishable in some other way. What I've done instead – since I cannot think of an sufficiently broad term that is correct in the linguistic sense – is link 347:

In which case I suggest that a bit much is being asked of this sentence. Perhaps something like 'However, these are often the result of later sound changes particular to a language or language family. Examples can be found in Sanskrit, where ...'

1435:

and I don't see any real reason to reconstruct the palatovelar except perhaps to posit a relationship with another root. All this to say, I made a table after UC's comments, but found myself realizing why Kloekhorst wrote the paper the way he

668:

I think this has been fixed with what I wrote for the above suggestion, since I talk about how PIE is hypothetical and no record of it exists. I go over that in the representational conventions in "Terminology", so I think all the bases are

1190:

I'm not gonna push back too hard here, but I'd say it's still kind of forgotten. I think Kloekhorst did a good job reminding others that the law existed and sort of established the boundaries better than Weise did, but sound laws like

953:

I've been thinking about how to de-technicalize the lede for some time now. I think I've figured it out, but let me know if I'm still off the mark. As for the penultimate paragraph in "Overview", I've also rewritten part of that. Same

126:

developed newfound interest when Dutch linguist Alwin Kloekhorst gave the law a full defense in 2011, giving Dr. Weise a high honor: naming it after him. As of now, there are no Proto-Indo-European FAs and only one other GA, which is

1043:

The reason I am a bit wary of "become" in this context is that it doesn't convey that the plain velars were already in the language; I think it sounds like they became novel sounds in the language. Could I steal the terminology from

2595:

I think I caught everything, but I've been wrong before. Let me know if you have any more concerns. Thanks for your patience and understanding. I know this is a seriously technical set of sources. 00:03, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

1101:

One thing that I think would help with this is a demonstration -- could we perhaps do a table with three columns -- PIE, and , with a few words that show the distinction written out in easily-parsed transcription?

1389:

and it seems summarized and fairly represented, but usual disclaimer goes that I'm not a linguist here, and some of the summations probably require someone who really knows the field for a 100% confidence review.

1233:

since the metathesis of late Proto-Indo-European *u and *r occurs after both the divergence of Anatolian (e.g., Hittite: 𒍝𒈠𒀭𒆳 zama(n)kur 'beard' < *smóḱ-ur) and any depalatalization under Weise's law.

804:

I doubt that we know the exact borders of PIE's Urheimat. Furthermore, alternative location exists (such as Anatolia and Armenia) even in mainstream literature. We should mention who proposes this location.

315:

In short, there appear to be violations of the law which are explainable by sound changes that took place after the law. In Sanskrit, as an example, /l/ becomes /r/ in many circumstances. Because of this,

2132:

This should be fixed now. It looks like I wrote backwards a little bit; I've added a clear restoration model example and clarified that the ajra example should align with the morphemic boundary model.

1332:, since this implies that Albanian and Armenian are generally-accepted centum languages. I'm not sure you need to come down hard either way, but we should avoid giving the reader the wrong impression. 71: 1912:

immediately precede *r in the Avestan reflex, it is still in accordance with the depalatalization described by Weise's law since *ḱ immediately precedes *r in the zero-grade form *ḱrp-os-".

235:"several different sources on the topic, both referencing Weise and not". This would work better as 'several different sources on the topic, some referencing Weise and some not' or similar. 963:

One such example of this is Sanskrit अज्र ájra 'field, plain', which is derived from h₂éǵ-ro- 'field, pasturage'; in this example, the reflex of the palatalized consonant has been restored

2304:

It doesn't. First usage is to discuss later depalatalizations in Albanian and Balto-Slavic only and the last usage explicitly carves out the Indo-Iranian languages from the statement.

1404:- this is one of those topics I suspect isn't very main page friendly (only hardcore linguists stumble on this article by accident), but there's absolutely a place for that in FAs. 1812:

Yes, per Beekes: "Assibilation, the development of a palatal or palatalized consonant into a °sibilant or (a cluster or) an °affricate with a s-sound as a second element; e.g. PIE

1419:

First, thank you for your kind words and support. I was concerned this page would languish in FAC limbo with only two supports, so thank you for voicing your support here as well.

1000:. I think this will adequately address my technical concern about accurate terminology and the general concern about accessibility to non-linguists. Let me know what you think. 547:

I am leaning support, but as it is early days for a technical topic I am going to hold off formalising this until I see what other reviewers think. In particular their view of

1439:

Again, thank you for supporting the article for FA. If you have any suggestions later or think of some way to further de-technicalize the article, feel free to let me know.

369:

I'd love to say yes, but this is the template phrase of someone used to reading and writing technical jargon trying to make it more accessible. In other words, sadly no. :-)

2678: 551:"Knowledge (XXG) articles should be written for the widest possible general audience." I think that it passes this, but only just, and would like to see others' opinions. 1655:

Sorry, I thought you were talking about the image captions. The tongue positioning can be found on that page at the top right two entries, dorso-palatal and dorso-velar.

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there is positive evidence that this kind of depalatalization never occurred in Armenian (սրունք srunkʿ 'leg' < *ḱrūs-ni-; մերձ merj 'near, close to' < *méǵʰsri).

1018:

the other one? I think the link helps, but as the tooltip doesn't give a definition (as it's linking to a section), it's not a perfect solution. Some sort of gloss on

399:

And in "there is positive evidence that the law never occurred in Armenian" and similar uses. I am not sure that "the law occurred" etc communicates well to a reader.

1875:

Okay, I added a few. The two pages contain a lot of information to confirm Kortlandt's thoughts on the topic, but I tried to minimize the length to make the point.

2674: 1459: 2754:

Okay, everything should be squared away; everything was able to be cited in Beekes. Let me know if there's something else that needs to be defined or cited.

2534:

Great, glad to hear it. I did a little spot check and it looks like everything requested has either been provided in the dropbox or have been linked in the

1214:

the MoS discourages editorial asides like "note how...", and takes the position that everything we write is notable. Better simply to start the sentence at

876:

I am struggling to find too much to say, though I know I have already stuck my oar in a great deal on this article. I hope the below is useful nonetheless.

1367:

Make sure that footnotes always end in a full stop (the citation template adds one automatically, as does sfn; harvnb doesn't) -- see note 3 for instance.

961:

I wonder whether "merge with" is likely to be confusing for most readers -- I'm not sure many non-linguists will parse it as "become ". A bit later, with

2409: 988:

Had to do a little source-digging and ended up clearing up a few things I thought could be further de-technicalized, but I added the expected reflex for

741:

Although only one branch of the Indo-European language family – the Anatolian languages – maintained a distinction between all three sets of consonants,

1267:

Albanian and Armenian have a controversial placement in centum–satem taxonomy. See Centum and satem languages § Satem languages for further discussion

67:

As of 22 September 2024, 16:47 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.

1505:

No worries. It's under dorso-palatal for the first instance and dorso-velar for the second. They are both at the top right of the page in question.

1298:: is it worth sticking in the middle "it does affect Albanian and Armenian; most scholars categorise these as centum languages, but Kloekhorst..."? 279:"while the palatovelar stops generally were made into alveolar sibilants in most cases". You don't need to say both "generally" and "in most cases". 2846: 17: 134:

who beat this article into shape during its GA nomination, swung by to help out during PR, and overall just gave great feedback. Also thanks to

1296:

While the law does not affect most of the generally accepted centum languages, Kloekhorst considers Albanian and Armenian to be satem languages

2474:. Let me know if there are any more concerns, if IA keeps acting up for you, or if you have trouble getting access to DB for whatever reason. 127: 2566:

In the dropbox now with the beginning part highlighted. Monier-Williams uses an older form of linguistic shorthand so you should read "fr. √

2427:

I prefer the Dropbox or Google method, but email is probably easier. Aye, the image should be replaced if its information can't be sourced.

2857: 731:

Could the negative statement be replaced by a positive one? "Although only one/two/... atteste languages - X, Y, and Z - distinguishes ..."

2670: 293:"Sanskrit words contain many potential violations of the rule occurring". I am not sure this is grammatical. Try deleting "occurring". 151: 51: 1120:

Similarly, some of the (entirely correct) technical notation could be written in plain language without sacrificing much: instead of

2405: 118: 1014:

Would there be anything wrong with saying that one sound merging into another is, for all intents and purposes, that sound simply

729:

Although almost no attested language in the Indo-European language family distinguishes between these three sets of consonants,...

47: 307:"However, these are often the result of later sound changes particular to a language or language family such as in Sanskrit": --> 2456:

Hmm, Trask 2000 apparently isn't in the JSTOR package. IA seems to be occasionally flaky when it comes to which pages it shows.

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Thanks a ton for your help on this article. I've fixed most of what you've pointed out and responded to the rest accordingly.

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Yes, save for Borsoka's point with the borders of the PIE Urheimat but I'll let that conversation proceed without my input.

1212:

Note how the tongue's point of contact or constriction moves increasingly forward, from the palate to just behind the teeth.

39: 1424: 87: 573:

and the nominator. And UC has explicitly approved of the level at which it is pitched. Who am I to disagree. Supporting.

1463: 2404:

Okay, I've cited Beekes as discussed. Re: the map, I have no idea where it comes from. Can I suggest replacing it with

2266:

Not that I'm aware of, but I'll see if I can't whittle down the ~10 min time frame/quote the appropriate parts of it.

92: 1428: 1109: 433:

Now that I'm looking at it again, I think it's really just Kloekhorst saying that. I've changed it to reflect that.

1462:

needs a licence for the plate. I wonder if the information in the files of the "overview" section can be sourced.

2506:. I tested it logged out so hopefully it should work now, but let me know if it doesn't and I can just email it. 1334: 1300: 1064: 1032: 993: 975: 909: 878: 718:

Hard to think of a non-awkward way to jam this in, but I think I picked an okay spot. Let me know what you think.

711:

Consider mentiong in the first section that an asterisk (*) indicates a non-documented/constructed term or sound.

649:

I assume that the three sounds mentioned in the article are not attested, but assumed - this should be clarified.

570: 159: 131: 2114:

Got this, but I am not sure that it supports " but in a context that would not subject it to the sound change"

1122:(e.g., Sanskrit: श्रवस् śravas 'fame' < *ḱleu-es-; ह्राद् hrād 'to resound, to make a noise' < *ǵʰleh₃d-) 195:

Courtesy ping. Just wanted to see if you were still interested in reviewing this since it's been a few weeks.

2470:

Okay, I think I've addressed everything above. Pages not found in links provided in the article can be found

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According to Alwin Kloekhorst, Weise's original article has "been largely forgotten by the scholarly world",

1108:

I'm not opposed to that, but I'm not sure what should be demonstrated with a table. There is a table on the

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I'm just going to delete that bit. It's functionally covered by the fact that PIE is hypothetical anyhow.

674:

I have responded accordingly. Please let me know if I misunderstood anything or need to do anything else.

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I've changed a few of these up; I think I'm understanding you right. If not, could you offer a suggestion?

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Not necessarily; an explanation of how to find it in Beekes, or additional pagenumbers, should suffice.

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pretty tough to parse. I also found the penultimate paragraph of the "Overview" section a little tricky.

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I see where the confusion is coming from. Kroonen 2013 is a Proto-Germanic dictionary; as a result of

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No doubt. Thank you for your tireless effort making this article more accessible and better quality.

616:

the main text could explain that the sound change is assumed to have occurred in Proto-Indoeuropean;

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37 I am not sure that this actually says that Indo-Iranian languages had secondary depalatization.

454:"See Centum and satem languages § Satem languages for more." Maybe '... for further information' ? 362:

Non-actionable comment: I like your two uses of "In other words". Is this deliberate minor humour?

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Okay, I've just given the appropriate etymologies without comment re: the relationship to ajra.

1641:"which are described as being articulated with the back part of the tongue and the soft palate" 1523:

Seems like "The precise pronunciation of these sounds is not known," needs another source then.

1287:

the "Relative chronology" section of this article instead? Or should I just remove it outright?

778:"Presents POV" as in "is relevant to the discussion at hand" or as in "needs to be removed for 43: 2681:

needs additional page numbers, or a suggestion to look up the terms in the source via search.

2413:

if that's acceptable, but if there's an easier/better/more appropriate way, just let me know.

846: 810: 765: 655: 574: 552: 512: 481: 249: 779: 2872: 2538:. If IA continues to give you trouble, let me know and I can drop some more pages for you. 495:

Hi Gog. Thanks for your feedback. I've responded accordingly. Let me know what you think.

139: 1277:

the discussion on the page is better (and better sourced), so would it be better to just

2849:

has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see

2696:

Is this requiring action on my end? Happy to add more pages to the dropbox if need be.

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It works now. Noting though that it doesn't have all the works that I need to check.

1405: 1252:: as above, I think it might help to write out the bit in brackets in layman's terms. 1200: 1048:

and say that the distinction between the palatovelars and the plain velars was lost?

135: 1466:

is even tagged for such and should probably say where the underlying map comes from.

2535: 2057: 1192: 842: 806: 782:"? I think since this is an early PIE law, it makes sense to show PIE in its early 761: 690: 651: 422:"linguists suggest that this sound change occurred before the centum–satem split." 34: 27: 728: 2868: 2864: 1330:

While the law does not affect most of the generally accepted centum languages...

1981:

26 supports only part of the content and 27 seems to point to the wrong page.

1175:: is the tense quite right here, given that Kloekhorst was trying to bring it 611:

Before starting a detailed review, I think the article needs some expansion:

340:

cluster, there is no violation. The examples serve to demonstrate such cases.

2669:

Added for the benefit of the coordinators: The sourcing in the captions of

1746:

Sorry about that. I've added Beekes 30 and 303 to the dropbox accordingly.

695:

Gentle nudge to see if you're still planning on reviewing/giving support.

841:

Excellent article. Thank you for completing it. I support its promotion.

783: 336:

according to the law. But because these words may be the result of a PIE

569:

Rereading, the article seems more accessible than I left it - thank you

1345:

Makes sense. It's fixed, but let me know if the verbiage is still off.

760:

I guess the map presents a PoV about the Proto-Indoeuropean homeland.

1561:

6 The first part is supported. Can I have copies of the other pages?

1183:

as a paraphrase. I think we do need to put a date on K's work here.

308:

I am a little confused; "such as in Sanskrit", as opposed to what?

2782:

Glad to hear it. Should be good on the image review then, right?

2610:

Seems like this review is done; you can deactivate the Dropbox.

1868:

19 I think this source might actually benefit from a quotation.

221:"Presented at a conference in 2008". Who or what was presented? 1483:

I must confess I don't know where this is stated on the page.

468:"Larry Trask also categorizes both". Categorizes both as what? 2259:

36 Is there a transcript of the pertinent part of the video?

2042:

Page 244 for me is the *h alphabetic point, not *k, though.

97: 969:

be if Weise's law were followed, or what's "wrong" with

856:

Thanks a ton. I appreciate your time and your comments.

1624: 1473: 59: 55: 2371:

for popular science, which is its only function here.

1328:

In which case, we need to think about the phrasing of

1127: 1075:

Okay, I think this has been adequately addressed now.

1026:

taking on the same sound (even if it doesn't strictly

1865:

16 OK (I can read German and checked the translation)

1179:

to scholarly attention? Might be more accurate to do

142:, both of whom gave me great feedback at PR as well. 1838:." (p. 302, where "°" signifies "defined elsewhere") 633:

Proto-Indoeuropean could very shortly be introduced;

320:

clusters appear to be violations of the law – since

157:

Good to see this here -- will pop in at some point.

2390:so I guess it's not an universally shared concern. 2004:full grade (*krép-es-) and the zero grade (*krp-). 587:Excellent. Thank you for the comments and support. 2679:File:Voiceless alveolar fricative articulation.svg 1724:Supports part of the content, but I don't have 9. 1152:The law is named after German linguist Oskar Weise 1154:: a false title: this and similar are better as " 1564:OK, but where is the tongue movement described? 72:Featured article candidates/Weise's law/archive1 1627:. Don't know why it's still coming up for you. 263:Thanks, Gog! Looking forward to your comments. 2675:File:Voiceless alveolar sibilant affricate.gif 2624:Awesome. Thanks a ton for the review/support. 1242:Good call. I revamped this paragraph entirely. 2863:template in place on the talk page until the 1460:File:Eisenberg Wohnhaus Oskar Weise Tafel.jpg 8: 2177:Got it, doesn't say it's unrelated to ajra. 2488:'fraid that this dropbox requires a login. 1126:for example, the Sanskrit word for 'fame', 18:Knowledge (XXG):Featured article candidates 2410:File:Indo-European steppe homeland map.svg 1609:To me the tongue movement is still there. 1455:Source review - pass; image review pending 1374:Good catch. I think I got all of them now. 994:surface representation from deep structure 324:is largely, if not only, derived from PIE 76: 2552:Now I think #32 is the only one missing. 1805:14 Is this supported by the other source? 1132:, derives from the Proto-Indo-European 79: 69: 7: 525:Everything should be addressed now. 2174:32 Can I have a copy of this page? 1978:27 Can I have a copy of this page? 1908:25 Can I have a copy of this page? 1786:12 Can I have a copy of this page? 1721:10 Can I have a copy of this page? 1397:languages, that'd be even better.) 461:I like "further discussion". Fixed. 2671:File:Voiceless palatal plosive.svg 2232:Already paginated with quote: 268. 1975:26 Can I have a copy of this page? 1702:9 Can I have a copy of this page? 1480:5 Can I have a copy of this page? 1062:I think that would probably work? 511:Just one come back of note above. 24: 2406:File:Indo-European migrations.gif 2386:such a source was allowed into 1789:Supports a bit of the content. 2877:15:16, 22 September 2024 (UTC) 2820:15:45, 20 September 2024 (UTC) 2806:17:02, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 2792:02:19, 18 September 2024 (UTC) 2778:07:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 2764:22:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 2750:15:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 2735:15:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 2720:09:44, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 2706:21:49, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2691:15:46, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 2634:15:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 2620:13:04, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 2606:00:03, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 2584:22:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 2562:07:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 2342:) 06:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 2321:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 2287:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 2249:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 2215:07:30, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 2201:00:01, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 2187:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 2160:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 2084:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 2032:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 1963:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 1892:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 1855:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 1774:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 1715:07:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 1705:Seems to support its content. 1679:13:04, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 1665:12:25, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 1651:07:30, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 1637:23:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 1619:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 1547:23:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 1533:08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC) 1515:22:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 1493:07:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC) 866:15:43, 20 September 2024 (UTC) 851:13:49, 20 September 2024 (UTC) 830:23:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 815:15:00, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 796:12:40, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 770:02:53, 18 September 2024 (UTC) 752:12:40, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 1: 2548:23:28, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 2530:07:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 2516:14:11, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 2498:06:35, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 2484:01:39, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 2466:06:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 2452:23:41, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 2437:08:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC) 2423:01:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC) 2400:17:59, 1 September 2024 (UTC) 2270:Added a quote from the slide. 2142:01:39, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 2124:06:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 2070:14:08, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 2052:06:35, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 2014:01:39, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 1991:06:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 1945:01:39, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 1922:06:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 1799:07:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 1756:23:28, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 1734:07:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 1601:23:28, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 1574:07:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC) 2536:current revision of the page 1464:File:Centum Satem 2000BC.png 2858:featured article candidates 2381:01:34, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 2361:12:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 1449:01:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC) 1414:20:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC) 1128: 1085:01:20, 10 August 2024 (UTC) 930:13:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC) 916:10:13, 10 August 2024 (UTC) 705:15:42, 23 August 2024 (UTC) 597:01:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC) 583:13:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC) 205:18:30, 15 August 2024 (UTC) 128:something I'm hoping to fix 2893: 2810:Should be cleared up now. 1625:on the first of this month 1431:) reconstruct the root as 1355:16:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC) 1341:14:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC) 1324:16:40, 8 August 2024 (UTC) 1307:14:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC) 1110:Centum and satem languages 1071:16:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC) 1058:16:17, 9 August 2024 (UTC) 1046:Phonological change#Merger 1039:14:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC) 1010:00:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC) 998:Phonological change#Merger 982:14:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC) 900:00:14, 5 August 2024 (UTC) 885:19:14, 3 August 2024 (UTC) 684:13:18, 1 August 2024 (UTC) 660:03:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC) 561:12:18, 1 August 2024 (UTC) 535:01:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC) 172:Count me in for a review! 66: 1294:I think it mostly works: 1030:that) might be possible? 521:16:06, 31 July 2024 (UTC) 505:01:18, 31 July 2024 (UTC) 490:20:00, 30 July 2024 (UTC) 426:linguists, most, or some? 273:16:10, 30 July 2024 (UTC) 258:15:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC) 213:Support from Gog the Mild 184:10:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC) 166:10:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC) 152:01:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC) 119:01:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC) 2225:33 Needs a page number. 2107:Already paginated: 266. 2100:29 Needs a page number. 1764:OK, it now checks out. 2768:I guess it's OK now. 2388:1257 Samalas eruption 1181:was largely forgotten 965:: can we say what it 739:Sure can. Changed to 390:Yep, that's fixed it. 1845:AGFing on this one. 1336:UndercoverClassicist 1302:UndercoverClassicist 1066:UndercoverClassicist 1034:UndercoverClassicist 977:UndercoverClassicist 911:UndercoverClassicist 880:UndercoverClassicist 571:UndercoverClassicist 217:Recusing to review. 161:UndercoverClassicist 132:UndercoverClassicist 1231:Another tough bit: 1158:German linguist..." 1144:Fair enough. Fixed. 1022:to explain that it 26: 607:Support by Borsoka 286:Good catch. Fixed. 2570:" as "from root 1427:) and Matasović ( 182: 121: 105: 104: 2884: 2862: 2856: 2853:, and leave the 2594: 2349: 2022:Gonna AGF here. 1953:Gonna AGF here. 1826: 1331: 1297: 1286: 1280: 1268: 1251: 1235: 1213: 1174: 1153: 1136: 1131: 1123: 964: 945: 742: 730: 694: 248:More to follow. 194: 173: 108: 77: 64: 63: 2892: 2891: 2887: 2886: 2885: 2883: 2882: 2881: 2860: 2854: 2588: 2472:in this Dropbox 2343: 1457: 1383: 1329: 1295: 1284: 1278: 1266: 1249: 1232: 1216:The tongue's... 1211: 1172: 1151: 1125: 1121: 962: 942: 874: 740: 688: 609: 332:cannot precede 215: 188: 68: 37: 33: 31: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 2890: 2888: 2880: 2879: 2867:goes through. 2839: 2838: 2837: 2836: 2835: 2834: 2833: 2832: 2831: 2830: 2829: 2828: 2827: 2826: 2825: 2824: 2823: 2822: 2667: 2666: 2665: 2664: 2663: 2662: 2661: 2660: 2659: 2658: 2657: 2656: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2652: 2651: 2650: 2649: 2648: 2647: 2646: 2645: 2644: 2643: 2642: 2641: 2640: 2639: 2638: 2637: 2636: 2333: 2332: 2328: 2327: 2326: 2325: 2324: 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2353:ThaesOfereode 2347: 2346:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2341: 2337: 2336:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2330: 2329: 2322: 2318: 2314: 2313:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2310: 2309: 2308: 2307: 2303: 2302: 2301: 2300: 2296: 2295: 2288: 2284: 2280: 2279:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2276: 2275: 2274: 2273: 2269: 2265: 2264: 2263: 2262: 2258: 2257: 2250: 2246: 2242: 2241:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2238: 2237: 2236: 2235: 2231: 2230: 2229: 2228: 2224: 2216: 2212: 2208: 2207:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2204: 2203: 2202: 2198: 2194: 2193:ThaesOfereode 2190: 2189: 2188: 2184: 2180: 2179:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2176: 2175: 2173: 2172: 2161: 2157: 2153: 2152:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2149: 2148: 2147: 2146: 2143: 2139: 2135: 2134:ThaesOfereode 2131: 2130: 2129: 2128: 2125: 2121: 2117: 2116:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2113: 2112: 2111: 2110: 2106: 2105: 2104: 2103: 2099: 2098: 2085: 2081: 2077: 2076:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2073: 2072: 2071: 2067: 2063: 2062:ThaesOfereode 2059: 2055: 2054: 2053: 2049: 2045: 2044:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2041: 2040: 2039: 2038: 2033: 2029: 2025: 2024:Jo-Jo Eumerus 2021: 2020: 2019: 2018: 2015: 2011: 2007: 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Eumerus 1640: 1639: 1638: 1634: 1630: 1629:ThaesOfereode 1626: 1623:I deleted it 1622: 1621: 1620: 1616: 1612: 1611:Jo-Jo Eumerus 1608: 1607: 1606: 1605: 1602: 1598: 1594: 1593:ThaesOfereode 1590: 1585: 1584: 1583: 1582: 1581: 1580: 1575: 1571: 1567: 1566:Jo-Jo Eumerus 1563: 1562: 1560: 1559: 1548: 1544: 1540: 1539:ThaesOfereode 1536: 1535: 1534: 1530: 1526: 1525:Jo-Jo Eumerus 1522: 1521: 1520: 1519: 1516: 1512: 1508: 1507:ThaesOfereode 1504: 1503: 1502: 1501: 1500: 1499: 1494: 1490: 1486: 1485:Jo-Jo Eumerus 1482: 1481: 1479: 1478: 1477: 1475: 1471: 1467: 1465: 1461: 1454: 1450: 1446: 1442: 1441:ThaesOfereode 1438: 1434: 1430: 1426: 1421: 1418: 1417: 1416: 1415: 1411: 1407: 1403: 1398: 1396: 1390: 1386: 1380: 1373: 1372: 1371: 1370: 1366: 1365: 1356: 1352: 1348: 1347:ThaesOfereode 1344: 1343: 1342: 1339: 1338: 1337: 1327: 1326: 1325: 1321: 1317: 1316:ThaesOfereode 1312: 1308: 1305: 1304: 1303: 1293: 1292: 1291: 1290: 1283: 1275: 1274: 1273: 1272: 1265: 1264: 1258: 1257: 1256: 1255: 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758: 753: 749: 745: 744:ThaesOfereode 738: 737: 736: 735: 732: 726: 725: 717: 716: 715: 714: 710: 709: 706: 702: 698: 697:ThaesOfereode 692: 687: 686: 685: 681: 677: 676:ThaesOfereode 673: 667: 666: 665: 664: 661: 657: 653: 650: 647: 646: 640: 639: 638: 637: 634: 631: 630: 623: 622: 621: 620: 617: 614: 613: 612: 606: 598: 594: 590: 589:ThaesOfereode 586: 585: 584: 580: 576: 572: 568: 567: 566: 565: 562: 558: 554: 550: 546: 545: 536: 532: 528: 527:ThaesOfereode 524: 523: 522: 518: 514: 510: 509: 508: 507: 506: 502: 498: 497:ThaesOfereode 494: 493: 492: 491: 487: 483: 474: 473: 472: 471: 467: 466: 460: 459: 458: 457: 453: 452: 446: 445: 444: 443: 439: 438: 432: 431: 430: 429: 425: 421: 420: 412: 411: 410: 409: 405: 404: 403: 402: 398: 397: 389: 388: 387: 386: 382: 381: 380: 379: 375: 374: 368: 367: 366: 365: 361: 360: 350: 349: 346: 345: 344: 343: 339: 335: 331: 327: 323: 319: 314: 313: 312: 311: 306: 305: 299: 298: 297: 296: 292: 291: 285: 284: 283: 282: 278: 277: 274: 270: 266: 265:ThaesOfereode 262: 261: 260: 259: 255: 251: 241: 240: 239: 238: 234: 233: 227: 226: 225: 224: 220: 219: 218: 212: 206: 202: 198: 197:ThaesOfereode 192: 191:Generalissima 187: 186: 185: 180: 176: 175:Generalissima 171: 170: 167: 164: 163: 162: 156: 155: 154: 153: 149: 145: 144:ThaesOfereode 141: 137: 133: 129: 120: 116: 112: 111:ThaesOfereode 107: 106: 99: 96: 94: 91: 89: 86: 85: 84: 83: 78: 73: 70: 65: 61: 57: 53: 49: 45: 41: 36: 29: 19: 2843:Closing note 2842: 2668: 2571: 2567: 2334: 2267: 1835: 1830: 1822: 1818: 1813: 1472: 1470:source IMO. 1468: 1458: 1432: 1401: 1399: 1394: 1391: 1387: 1384: 1335: 1333: 1301: 1299: 1215: 1197:Szemerényi's 1180: 1176: 1155: 1133: 1065: 1063: 1033: 1031: 1027: 1023: 1019: 1015: 989: 976: 974: 970: 966: 910: 908: 904: 879: 877: 875: 840: 727: 648: 632: 615: 610: 575:Gog the Mild 553:Gog the Mild 549:WP:TECHNICAL 513:Gog the Mild 482:Gog the Mild 480: 423: 337: 333: 329: 325: 321: 317: 250:Gog the Mild 247: 216: 160: 158: 124: 93:Citation bot 32: 2058:Grimm's law 1589:WP:OFFTOPIC 1400:A cautious 1385:Nice work. 625:languages). 406:Ibid. above 181:) (it/she) 35:Weise's law 28:Weise's law 1259:Yep. Done. 1204:requested. 973:under it? 475:Clarified. 328:– because 228:Rephrased. 140:Matarisvan 2851:WP:FAC/ar 2847:candidate 2504:this link 2205:OK then. 2150:OK then. 2074:OK then. 1474:Spotcheck 413:Likewise. 2845:: This 2369:WP:RSPSS 1935:p. 138. 1829:; Latin 1406:SnowFire 1381:SnowFire 1201:Verner's 1134:*ḱleu-es 1024:includes 1016:becoming 784:Urheimat 669:covered. 136:RoySmith 88:Analysis 1402:support 1193:Grimm's 944:analogy 905:Support 843:Borsoka 807:Borsoka 780:WP:NPOV 762:Borsoka 691:Borsoka 652:Borsoka 80:Toolbox 48:history 2869:FrB.TG 1834:Ital. 1831:centum 1821:, Av. 1814:*ḱmtom 1433:*krep- 1429:p. 224 1425:p. 244 1395:modern 1224:Fixed. 1199:, and 1129:śravas 1124:, try 351:Fixed. 300:Fixed. 2331:41 OK 1905:23 OK 1902:21 OK 1836:cento 1833:: --> 1819:śatám 1817:Skt. 1816:: --> 1282:slink 1165:Done. 1020:merge 967:would 954:goes. 641:Done. 447:Done. 242:Done. 56:watch 52:links 16:< 2873:talk 2816:talk 2802:talk 2788:talk 2774:talk 2760:talk 2746:talk 2731:talk 2716:talk 2702:talk 2687:talk 2677:and 2630:talk 2616:talk 2602:talk 2580:talk 2558:talk 2544:talk 2526:talk 2512:talk 2502:Try 2494:talk 2480:talk 2462:talk 2448:talk 2433:talk 2419:talk 2396:talk 2377:talk 2357:talk 2340:talk 2317:talk 2311:OK. 2283:talk 2277:OK. 2268:ETA: 2245:talk 2239:OK. 2211:talk 2197:talk 2183:talk 2156:talk 2138:talk 2120:talk 2080:talk 2066:talk 2048:talk 2028:talk 2010:talk 1987:talk 1959:talk 1941:talk 1918:talk 1888:talk 1882:OK. 1851:talk 1795:talk 1770:talk 1752:talk 1730:talk 1711:talk 1699:8 OK 1675:talk 1669:OK. 1661:talk 1647:talk 1633:talk 1615:talk 1597:talk 1570:talk 1543:talk 1529:talk 1511:talk 1489:talk 1445:talk 1436:did. 1410:talk 1351:talk 1320:talk 1177:back 1081:talk 1054:talk 1028:mean 1006:talk 990:ájra 971:ájra 926:talk 896:talk 862:talk 847:talk 826:talk 811:talk 792:talk 766:talk 748:talk 701:talk 680:talk 656:talk 593:talk 579:talk 557:talk 531:talk 517:talk 501:talk 486:talk 269:talk 254:talk 201:talk 179:talk 148:talk 138:and 115:talk 60:logs 44:talk 40:edit 2865:bot 2572:aṅg 2568:aṅg 2408:or 1823:sat 1156:the 424:All 338:*ḱl 2875:) 2861:}} 2855:{{ 2818:) 2804:) 2790:) 2776:) 2762:) 2748:) 2733:) 2718:) 2704:) 2689:) 2673:, 2632:) 2618:) 2604:) 2582:) 2574:" 2560:) 2546:) 2528:) 2514:) 2496:) 2482:) 2464:) 2450:) 2435:) 2421:) 2398:) 2379:) 2359:) 2319:) 2285:) 2247:) 2213:) 2199:) 2185:) 2158:) 2140:) 2122:) 2082:) 2068:) 2050:) 2030:) 2012:) 1989:) 1961:) 1943:) 1920:) 1890:) 1853:) 1797:) 1772:) 1754:) 1732:) 1713:) 1677:) 1663:) 1649:) 1635:) 1617:) 1599:) 1591:. 1572:) 1545:) 1531:) 1513:) 1491:) 1476:: 1447:) 1412:) 1353:) 1322:) 1285:}} 1279:{{ 1195:, 1083:) 1056:) 1008:) 928:) 898:) 872:UC 864:) 849:) 828:) 813:) 794:) 786:. 768:) 750:) 703:) 682:) 658:) 595:) 581:) 559:) 533:) 519:) 503:) 488:) 334:*r 330:*ḱ 326:*ḱ 318:śr 271:) 256:) 203:) 150:) 117:) 58:| 54:| 50:| 46:| 42:| 2871:( 2814:( 2800:( 2786:( 2772:( 2758:( 2744:( 2729:( 2714:( 2700:( 2685:( 2628:( 2614:( 2600:( 2593:: 2589:@ 2578:( 2556:( 2542:( 2524:( 2510:( 2492:( 2478:( 2460:( 2446:( 2431:( 2417:( 2394:( 2375:( 2355:( 2348:: 2344:@ 2338:( 2315:( 2281:( 2243:( 2209:( 2195:( 2181:( 2154:( 2136:( 2118:( 2078:( 2064:( 2046:( 2026:( 2008:( 1985:( 1957:( 1939:( 1916:( 1886:( 1849:( 1827:m 1825:ə 1793:( 1768:( 1750:( 1728:( 1709:( 1673:( 1659:( 1645:( 1631:( 1613:( 1595:( 1568:( 1541:( 1527:( 1509:( 1487:( 1443:( 1408:( 1349:( 1318:( 1137:. 1079:( 1052:( 1004:( 924:( 894:( 860:( 845:( 824:( 809:( 790:( 764:( 746:( 699:( 693:: 689:@ 678:( 654:( 591:( 577:( 555:( 529:( 515:( 499:( 484:( 322:ś 267:( 252:( 199:( 193:: 189:@ 177:( 146:( 113:( 62:) 38:(

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