184:. High quality, high encyclopedic value in the three articles. I know this isn't a formal FPC requirement, but since the image text is in Dutch, and presumably it adds significant value to the image, I'd like to see a translation on the image page. For the close reader of an image, the text is integral to its meaning and interpretation, particularly where the text forms such a large and important part of the image, as here. I know this text is in old Dutch, in cursive, so it probably needs a native speaker. I'm contacting some User_nl Wikipedians, and on the presumption that the text can be translated, this can be considered a full support. Without the translation I'll switch down to a weak support.
670:
one disputes that. But everyone already knows in a general sense that this was
Delaware Bay under Dutch colonial rule: does that factor really merit outright opposition after similar maps by the same cartographer have been promoted? Do individual reviewers get to impose new criteria by personal fiat after consensus discussion fails to implement them? Gentlemen, this is an excellent way to drive off contributors. NuclearWarfare spent many long hours working on this restoration; it's his first nominee. I hope this doesn't become the norm because it is not easy to recruit and train people for this work.
510:
it is we are actually looking at. I am certain that the latter of these is true here, I am unsure of the former. Previous
Vinckeboons images have not included such text, and have merely denoted placenames (which are themselves somewhat congruent with other maps, and useful as historical information in themselves). If I don't find anyone in the next few days, I'm going to get an old (18th C) Dutch dictionary and have a go at doing it myself - I'm in a history department where we do this kind of thing all the time.
34:
466:; the inability of modern native speakers to read historic manuscripts in certain languages was one of the reasons, and Gerard's attempts to decipher Vinckeboons were specifically discussed. The Vinckeboons restorations are the most time consuming and difficult we have ever produced at this project; these take 80 hours of labor. Please evaluate according to agreed criteria and discuss in a collaborative spirit.
390:) 06:13, 19 October 2009 (UTC) The language is seventeenth century Dutch and it is essentially a foreign language to contemporary Dutch. The characters are different, the spelling is different.. The notion of "spamming" is disrespectful for the massive amount of work in here. Given support by demanding a translation is also very much of a similar disrespect for important historic material om this subject.
669:
Surprised to see that notion gaining any traction at all--particularly with long time regulars. This cartographer's work was specifically discussed in advance when the proposal was put forward. Two native speakers have been unable to translate the caption. Certainly translation would be useful; no
590:
I have some experience in paleography, but my knowledge of obsolete Dutch is nonexistent. Nevertheless, I'll say that the first half of the text on the left seems to deal with the native inhabitants of the area; the two-column list there is clearly a list of the names of Indian tribes or settlements
537:
As a native speaker of Dutch, I would like to give it a try. I've tried to read it and could easily make out some words. My problem though is that I can't make out the handwriting. If someone could write it down for me, I'll try to translate it for you. The sentence "vrouwen als sij bevrucht sijn in
864:
It now has quite prominent placement. I also really want to know what the chart says. I have a friend who specializes in translating ancient languages, except that friend is currently in
Iceland on a sabbatical. For some reason, he left his phone in a box on his desk in America when he left. So, if
509:
I like to think that I would like (but not require) translations of image texts where the request is both; reasonable: there are
Wikipedians who can read it, doing so is not particularly time consuming (the text is limited), and is integral to the image and provides important information about what
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summarising in more detail exactly what would be expected, and what would be excepted. Eg, when it is possible to translate but hasn't been, why shouldn't we be able to oppose on the basis that the EV could be improved by a translation (even if just approximate)? This happens all the time - people
619:
For the record, I don't know if the proposal to make translations part of the FPC criteria was outright rejected. Looking back at it, it seems like there was more discussion than any actual conclusions, and some of the actual 'votes' of opposition were based on incorrect assumptions (like the fact
752:
Exactly. See what a reasonable effort toward translation will do for you? Precisely why I conditionally supported. The effort here has been reasonable and even though the language is old, we still got a rough idea of its content, even if the first translation "effort" wasn't even worth a try. I'm
650:
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Regardless of the outcome of that previous discussion or a further one, a reasonably argued oppose based on insufficient EV would be acceptable, as are other EV related opposes (note: I'm not making a specific comment on
488:
content that any native Dutch speaker can decipher. It has a lot of EV, and even more now after my edits, but the translation is key to EV. Translations may not be in criteria, but EV is subjective, and IMO, translations are essential for enough EV.
483:
comes back with. After such pessimism regarding 19th century
Japanese translations, I have a feeling a translation will be found here. I'll even settle for a "it most likely says...based on the current language". Not convinced there isn't at least
715:
Are you implying this is an unreasonable request? This image has a block of text more than 150 words long. An effort to get a translation only helps the encyclopedia. What does your preference do to help the encyclopedia? Why are we
60:. After a short time, the initial 32 inhabitants were murdered by local Indians and Godyn sold his land back to the West India Company. The Company kept the names of the local area, including Godyn's Bay, which eventually became
771:
I don't think there's any need to make a point of it; it's hard work, and I'd like to thank
Massimo Cantarinella for having a go. I've put the partial translation on the image page, with appropriate caveats.
683:
I'm sorry, did someone oppose because of this reason? I know
NuclearWarfare, and know that he is better than to be significantly wounded by reasonable requests for more information. Apparently you doubt him?
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289:. Prominence in an article is not a requirement. What is is that the image adds to the section it is placed in, and relates well to the text it illustrates.
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The language used is what is at issue. This is important material, even important historic material with or without translations and it deserves respect.
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on all documents with any non-English text, which isn't true - there would be common sense exceptions). IMO, it would be worth asking the question again
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upon a reasonably effort to find a translation (and only then). I'm also updating the caption, having done some work on New
Netherland related topics.
458:(ec) Wadester, Gerard is a native Dutch speaker. Two previous maps by this same artist have been promoted to FP without translation. Translation is
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why a translation can be so helpful! Anyway, I did my best on interpreting the the text. You can see it at
Massimo Catarinella's talk page.
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It is in old Dutch, and to that extent it's difficult. Still we now know that it talks about female cannibalism, which increases the EV.
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you can wait three months, I might be able to help, if not, well, here's to hoping that the rest of you can tell me what this means.
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First rate restoration. I also agree a translation would add to it's EV, it already has good EV but a translation would be better. —
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Agreed. Nice work. All I ask is for a reasonable effort be made to try. This now makes the map that much more interesting.
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oppose images because there is room for improvement in the composition/colour balance, sharpness, etc, so why not EV too?
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interesting sentence to have on a nautical chart, makes me want to know what the whole block of text says even more! —
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kinderen" (which I can make out) means women who are pregnant or literally: women who are fertilized with children. --
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I'm sorry that I removed it one from article it added almost nothing to, but added to two articles that required it?
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My my now, quite the nomination team. Here's the thing. It's only real exposeure is on the page
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glad another Dutch speaker gave it a shot. The content turned out to be very interesting.
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831:: I strongly agree that a translation would be nice, even if only for the image page.
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as it was essentially spamming the article. Only "home" location in the article is at
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page. Good image though. Fix this then click on the golden phone to get my vote.
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This is a great restoration of "a map of the "Svydt" river in "niew nederland".
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I'm speaking of your spamming reference. Please re-read if necessary.
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colony. Very high resolution; see also compressed courtesy copy at
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Please sign in to vote, and ensure you address the criteria. --
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Added to more appropriate articles (i.e. now it's in its
82:File:Delaware Bay Vinckeboons 14 courtesy copy.jpg
462:an FPC criterion; the proposal to require it was
702:Unreasonable requests are a different matter.
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64:. Ink and watercolor with pictorial relief.
52:founded by Samuel Godyn, a director of the
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Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
