Knowledge

:Redirects for discussion/Log/2012 August 24 - Knowledge

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rather than shutting them out. Redirects won't be harmful unless the other language edition is essentially unused (in which case the former benefit is much stronger), or the redirect is immensely popular (in which case it's providing a substantial service, and should be retained). The hypothetical argument that other non-english redirects could be harmful isn't compelling, because that argument doesn't apply to these redirects. BLP also tells us that biographies might be harmful, but we only delete those that're actually harmful. Deleting these redirects serves no purpose other than to make the encyclopaedia less usable for second-language English speakers, which is textbookedly dickish on our part.
761:. You are welcome to rebut the points I made, but I find your assertion that it doesn't support my point somewhat shocking. Have you read the essay through? One specific example of the problems this type of redirect creates is thus: if someone changes the target to an unrelated article, will RC patrollers understand this is a bad thing? Most of them won't be able to recognize what the term is. This is explained in the essay, see "error detection relies on numbers." There's no compelling reason to have a redirect to this particular subject from that particular alphabet, and non-English redirect bloat is a bad thing. 865:
immediately see something like "Will is a homo" → Will Smith, but as very few people editing en.wiki will see (for instance) what クソボケ → Will Smith (クソボケ roughly translates to shit-for-brains). I'm the one who started the RfD quoted above that resulted in the deletion of completely useless Selena Gomez redirects, and I have no problem with
830:
in a different language they can use their favourite search engine to find information about that person and/or their name in English and then look to Knowledge for that. Also, they have great potential for harm - few people on en.wp can read Armenian so if I was to create a redirect from "Հոլոքոսթը հերքողները" to
915:. Apparently these redirects are in Kazakh and Mongolian respectively, languages to which Justin Bieber apparently has no connection. Speakers of those languages looking for information in English will know his English name, and those looking for information in those languages will be better served by the 829:
It is not dickish at all, as while redirects like this do little harm to the English Knowledge (other than provide links that are helpful to almost nobody and only marginally helpful to the rest) they do actively harm foreign language editions of Knowledge. If somebody knows only the name of a person
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The group English speakers contains an enormous number of second language speakers (indeed, the great majority of English speakers speak it as a second language). Catering to them in a way that costs us nothing at all, and makes the encyclopaedia more useful to them, is the nice thing to do. Making
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The key point is that this is the English Knowledge and thus we cater for English speakers almost exclusively - speakers of other languages have other language encyclopaedias that do similarly. If a second-language English speaker wants to read about a topic in English but cannot remember the English
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thing to do. Especially in a case like a proper name, where even a reasonably proficient second language speaker is likely to have difficulties. It not only drives away readers, but plausibly editors who'd improve the encyclopaedia to the benefit of native English speakers (for those who have no
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per my comments on the Justin Bieber redirects above - users searching for the Kazakh language title of an American film are better served by the Kazakh language Knowledge; having such redirects here dilutes the prominence of those articles in search engine results. The titles are not helpful to
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It's entirely dickish, taking deliberate action to make someone else's use of the encyclopaedia harder without any benefit to the rest of us. Other language editions are likely to benefit from English Knowledge providing them publicity b y allowing readers to navigate to their native language,
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few would recognise this as a VLP violation (it's Google's translation of the phrase "holocaust denier", for reference I have no idea whether he is one or not). Further, redirects like this clutter search results and can cause problems down the line with accidental links from misspellings, etc.
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Note also that the point about Canadian languages doesn't fly; Canada has almost a hundred thousand first language Russian speakers, about four times the number of first language Inukitut speakers (indeed, equal to almost the total number of First Nation language speakers combined). The United
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Two points. One; why, exactly, would anyone come to the English Knowledge and do a search for a Canadian singer (unfortunately) popular in the United States using Mongolian and Kazakh? Secondly, there is a very real maintenance problem here; anyone quickly scanning a list of redirects will
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Dunno... We already have the interwiki links. And search engines should pick up the properly titled articles on the other language Wikipedias. All that leaves is someone searching the English Knowledge using a comp set up for non-Latin characters. And the mind boggles at that one. -
942:, titles in non-arabic characters should not be in the English Knowledge, they should be in their respective languages' Knowledge and link to the article in question through alternate language links, which appears to have already taken place in these two cases. 626:
The point of DRV isn't to rehash a discussion, but to ensure the closure was a correct reflection of the discussion. Given that the original discussion fucked up, the DRV can still endorse it without us having to compound that fuckup with a second bad decision.
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The logic would be that the particular Wikipedias have yet to have an article on the topic created, so the best way for users of those to find the topic is to have the non-English redirects hosted on the English Knowledge. It is worth noting that the Ukranian -
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States adds another nine hundred thousand first language Russian speakers (2006). Even if Bieber was only popular in Canada and America (as a current European, to this I say "HA!"), that's still a million people who're likely to find a Russian redirect useful.
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It's difficult to rebut points that don't exist. Apart from a vague sentiment of "I don't think we should be bothered to consider the needs of readers for whom English is a second language", and perhaps some "I don't like it", there's no argument there.
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article should have the hatnote {{redirect|Supreme Leader|historic uses and similar titles|Supreme Leader (title)||Supreme Leader (disambiguation)}}. I will formally propose the move of the title article there but link to here for discussion.
1319: 1057:- Knowledge's have articles in place. And the latter has a redirect for "Джастин Бибер". That makes the argument moot at the very least. Willfully blind considering those articles have been there for around 3 years. - 445: 1347: 1291: 1615:
since would be introducing a non-English section or never used in English phonetic translation into an article. And if there has been a change in consensus - and I'm not seeing it here - then getting that change
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since would be introducing a non-English section or never used in English phonetic translation into an article. And if there has been a change in consensus - and I'm not seeing it here - then getting that change
473: 498:, Knowledge is not a translation dictionary. His songs are in English, not these two languages, and he speaks English and French, not these two languages. His primary market is United States and Canada. -- 970:. Likewise, I am not convinced of the "helping ESL readers" angle - even someone for whom English is their second (or later) language will understand that an English website will use English spelling. 811:
concern for the welfare of non-native speakers). Functionally, people not terribly familiar with Knowledge are often unlikely to know that a version exists in their native language, something they
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is the primary topic. Note however a large amount of links which probably mean the Iranian title specifically. Is there a bot which can selectively fix links to redirects to point to their targets?
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Keep them all. Russian, and sometimes Kazakh names of Amer2ican films are generally acceptable. In Kazakhstan, Men in Black 3 is currently dubbed in Kazakh and entitled "Қара киімділер 3". "
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remember there are ~6-7 thousand languages in the world and over four million Knowledge articles so this would mean well over 24 billion redirects to cater for second language speakers.
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does nicely, but is currently the only way on en.Knowledge they'd find a result. The page gets how many views? They're statistically impossible to all be English-primary speakers.
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redirects from languages that are not closely associated with the target. MIB is a US Hollywood film with an English-language script and dialogue with English-language directors.
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No, that's not how DRV works. DRV only overturns if the original discussion came to a different conclusion than the admin closed it as, or relists if the closure was premature.
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criterion 8, unless there are compelling reasons related to the subject of the article itself, and not just where this subject it is of interest to speakers of other languages.
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criterion 8, unless there are compelling reasons related to the subject of the article itself, and not just where this subject it is of interest to speakers of other languages.
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This essay utter fails to make the case that non-English redirects are harmful. Linking an essay that doesn't support your point at all is not a convincing argument.
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foreign language redirects, but I fail to see any connection between Justin Bieber and the Kazakh and Mongolian languages. In case it's not already self evident,
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I've seen DRV relist/reopen when there were process problems. Your implication is that the original discussion is process-confused, so viable for relisting. --
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redirects aside from driving those using computers not set up for Latin based alphabets to English Knowledge pages. And using them in an article would be very
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redirects aside from driving those using computers not set up for Latin based alphabets to English Knowledge pages. And using them in an article would be very
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unrelated language to Justin Bieber, this is not English, French, Inukitut (Canadian languages), German (ancestral languages), or Spanish (Selena Gomez).
1514: 878: 609: 1260:. Going over the discussion here as well as the others currently listed, there is still consensus to not have these redirects, also referred to as 414:. Going over the discussion here as well as the others currently listed, there is still consensus to not have these redirects, also referred to as 1665:
Men in Black and Men in Black 2 do not have Film posters in Russian. Men in Black 3 does have Russian and Kazakh equivalents of its film poster.
1499:. We're trying to write an encyclopaedia for people to use as a reference; when our actions are detrimental to that goal, we shouldn't do them. 916: 21: 1158: 874: 1666: 1638: 122: 1097:
which is solely built of redirects to articles in other language wikipedias? (or lists of other wikipedias with articles on the topic) --
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which was to delete this kind of redirect, where the language in question was not closely related to the topic at hand. --
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the encyclopaedia more useable is always a good thing, and deliberately making it harder to use for no benefit is always a
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which was to delete this kind of redirect, where the language in question was not closely related to the topic at hand. --
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is not called Supreme Leader, either in or outside North Korea. To my knowledge, Iran is the only country using this term.
351: 94:. Any other target would be unusual as the titles which differ only in capitalization usually point to the same target. 1054: 1461: 1076: 1050: 1715: 1688: 1674: 1660: 1646: 1629: 1597: 1577: 1563: 1526: 1508: 1491: 1473: 1455: 1441: 1427: 1409: 1273: 1208: 1183: 1166: 1121: 1106: 1088: 1066: 1043: 1029: 1009: 977: 958: 932: 884: 859: 844: 824: 800: 785: 770: 752: 738: 711: 678: 664: 650: 636: 621: 603: 585: 567: 553: 539: 525: 507: 427: 362: 338: 307: 274: 235: 214: 192: 174: 152:, created in 2011. I think discussion is need about whether there is a primary topic for the name "Supreme Leader". 104: 144:
since 2003 (apart from when it was briefly turned into a dab page). Recently the target has changed to redirect to
1418:- aids user navigation, deletion presents no value. Why lower the usefulness of the encyclopaedia to no benefit? 1651:
Why? What is the difference between the redirects that makes "Люди в чёрном 3" useful but "Люди в чёрном 2" not?
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If the XfD discussion was messed up, then the DRV decision would be to overturn or to relist, not endorse. --
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This isn't the Russian Knowledge, so still not getting your point, since the movie was filmed in English. --
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This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on August 24, 2012
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as this, in my mind, is the only real supreme leader and is clearly primary topic for this term.
1143:"redirects from a foreign language title to a page whose subject is unrelated to that language". 358: 99: 1242:
Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's
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discover through interwiki links if they were given the chance by redirects like this one.
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name for it they can search their first-language Knowledge and follow the interwiki link.
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Why would we write a Russian/Ukrainian/etc-language article on English Knowledge? --
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English speaking readers and the articles are not helpful to Kazakh, etc. speakers.
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If he knows Russian or other languages written in Cyrillic, keep them all. --
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So, we should have every language known have redirects to every topic? --
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects.
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So, we should have every language known have redirects to every topic? --
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects.
325:. I often see the phrase used generically, and it is not clear to me that 66:
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
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making these type of redirects would be the reasonable way to go. -
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making these type of redirects would be the reasonable way to go. -
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Isn't the Supreme Leader of North Korea more relevant currently? --
1071:(Addendum) And since Thryduulf points out one would be Mongolian - 350:. North Korea does have an official title of Supreme Leader, see 1723:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Per WilyD. No policy that non-English redirects are harmful.
1550:, and these redirects are not a convincing exception. See 1446:
We should keep redirects that improve the encyclopaedia.
725:, and these redirects are not a convincing exception. See 1379: 1351: 1323: 1295: 1018: 477: 449: 244: 126: 112: 590:
Just because we've made stupid decisions in the past,
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as the clear primary topic. The article currently at
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This user essay provides no rationale for deletion.
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Shouldn't we have a different project for that? Say
1250:). No further edits should be made to this section. 404:). No further edits should be made to this section. 80:). No further edits should be made to this section. 1464:", "Люди в чёрном 3", hmm.... They're comparable. 1400:Knowledge is not a translation dictionary either. 594:we're obliged to keep making stupid decisions. 1094: 352:Supreme_Leader_of_North_Korea#Supreme_leaders 8: 966:, the only real keep rationale available is 1605:- There is very, very little use for these 985:- There is very, very little use for these 544:Where they're useful and unharmful, yes. 1497:We're not bound by previous bad decisions 7: 1637:redirects to Men in Black 3 only. 1517:a couple of months ago though. -- 1256:The result of the discussion was 612:a couple of months ago though. -- 410:The result of the discussion was 283:Talk:Supreme leader#Requested Move 224:Redirect to Supreme Leader of Iran 28: 18:Knowledge:Redirects for discussion 1548:Non-English redirects are harmful 1197:. Not a valid English search. -- 723:Non-English redirects are harmful 86:The result of the discussion was 1462:Зов Долга: Секретные операции II 875:The Blade of the Northern Lights 1075:since January 2011. And Kazakh 323:principle of least astonishment 146:Supreme Leader (disambiguation) 118:Supreme Leader (disambiguation) 1716:20:53, 12 September 2012 (UTC) 1689:22:54, 13 September 2012 (UTC) 1675:20:38, 12 September 2012 (UTC) 1661:12:28, 12 September 2012 (UTC) 1647:10:57, 12 September 2012 (UTC) 1274:19:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC) 759:specifically for this instance 428:19:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC) 148:. 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stood as a redirect to 1746: 1726:Please do not modify it. 1239:Please do not modify it. 1219:Please do not modify it. 1095:http://mul.wikipedia.org 917:Kazakh Knowledge article 393:Please do not modify it. 373:Please do not modify it. 69:Please do not modify it. 1174:have you read ]#8 ? -- 327:Supreme Leader of Iran 262:Supreme Leader of Iran 258:Supreme Leader (title) 250:Supreme Leader of Iran 142:Supreme Leader of Iran 1480:similar RFD last year 1466:Daniyar Mukharbatanov 1366:Люди в чёрном (фильм) 574:similar RFD last year 560:Daniyar Mukharbatanov 1079:from August 2011. - 1371:Men in Black (film) 256:should be moved to 1389: 1376:links to redirect 1361: 1348:links to redirect 1333: 1320:links to redirect 1305: 1292:links to redirect 954: 911: 757:I just wrote it, 487: 474:links to redirect 459: 446:links to redirect 136: 123:links to redirect 1737: 1728: 1575: 1506: 1453: 1425: 1388: 1387: 1368: 1360: 1359: 1340: 1332: 1331: 1312: 1310:Қара киімділер 3 1304: 1303: 1284: 1241: 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668: 667: 666: 663: 658: 654: 653: 652: 648: 644: 643:76.65.128.252 640: 639: 638: 635: 630: 625: 624: 623: 619: 615: 614:76.65.128.252 611: 607: 606: 605: 602: 597: 593: 589: 588: 587: 583: 579: 578:76.65.128.252 575: 571: 570: 569: 565: 561: 557: 556: 555: 552: 547: 543: 542: 541: 537: 533: 532:76.65.128.252 529: 528: 527: 524: 519: 515: 512: 511: 510: 509: 505: 501: 500:76.65.128.252 497: 493: 483: 479: 475: 470: 469:Justin Bieber 465: 461: 455: 451: 447: 442: 441:Justin Bieber 437: 436:Джастин Бибер 433: 432: 429: 425: 421: 417: 416:WP:RFD#DELETE 413: 409: 408: 405: 403: 399: 394: 388: 387: 383:Justin Bieber 382: 377: 374: 368: 367: 364: 360: 356: 353: 349: 345: 342: 340: 336: 332: 328: 324: 320: 316: 313: 309: 306: 303: 297: 294: 290: 284: 281: 278: 277: 276: 272: 268: 263: 259: 255: 251: 246: 242: 239: 237: 233: 229: 225: 222: 221: 216: 212: 208: 204: 200: 199: 198: 197: 194: 190: 186: 185:76.65.128.252 182: 179: 178: 177: 176: 173: 170: 164: 161: 157: 151: 147: 143: 132: 128: 124: 119: 114: 110: 109: 106: 103: 97: 93: 89: 85: 84: 81: 79: 75: 70: 64: 63: 56: 54: 48: 41: 36: 23: 19: 1725: 1722: 1699: 1634: 1617: 1607: 1606: 1602: 1584: 1543: 1415: 1393: 1392: 1257: 1238: 1235: 1229:Men In Black 1218: 1215: 1199: 1190: 1171: 1154: 1136: 1073:Жастин Бибер 1014: 997: 987: 986: 982: 963: 943: 939: 912: 870: 866: 832:Abdullah Gül 812: 758: 718: 592:doesn't mean 513: 491: 490: 464:Жастин Бибер 411: 392: 389: 372: 369: 343: 314: 301: 292: 288: 279: 240: 223: 180: 168: 159: 155: 139: 87: 68: 65: 52: 203:Kim Jong-un 1585:Delete all 1653:Thryduulf 1590:Thryduulf 1556:BigNate37 1398:WP:NOTDIC 1244:talk page 1022:Dru of Id 968:WP:NOHARM 925:Thryduulf 837:Thryduulf 793:Thryduulf 763:BigNate37 731:BigNate37 496:WP:NOTDIC 398:talk page 267:Thryduulf 74:talk page 49:August 24 40:August 25 35:August 23 1608:orphaned 1266:Tikiwont 1246:or in a 1193:as per 1139:as per 988:orphaned 867:relevant 808:dick-ish 420:Tikiwont 400:or in a 344:Retarget 315:Retarget 241:Retarget 88:Retarget 76:or in a 20:‎ | 1702:as per 1700:Delete 1380:history 1352:history 1324:history 1296:history 1200:P 1 9 9 1172:Comment 919:or the 478:history 450:history 355:Siuenti 201:No, as 181:Comment 127:history 1622:J Greb 1618:before 1613:pointy 1603:Delete 1544:Delete 1394:Delete 1258:Delete 1191:Delete 1137:Delete 1114:J Greb 1081:J Greb 1059:J Greb 1002:J Greb 998:before 993:pointy 983:Delete 964:Delete 940:Delete 913:Delete 880:話して下さい 871:delete 719:Delete 492:Delete 412:Delete 289:France 156:France 134:) 96:Ruslik 1384:stats 1356:stats 1328:stats 1300:stats 953:(alk) 813:could 482:stats 454:stats 280:Link: 131:stats 43:: --> 16:< 1712:talk 1708:Moxy 1685:talk 1671:talk 1657:talk 1643:talk 1635:Keep 1626:talk 1594:talk 1570:Wily 1554:#8. 1523:talk 1501:Wily 1488:talk 1470:talk 1448:Wily 1438:talk 1420:Wily 1416:Keep 1406:talk 1270:talk 1180:talk 1163:talk 1155:Keep 1149:talk 1145:Moxy 1118:talk 1103:talk 1085:talk 1063:talk 1040:talk 1026:talk 1015:Keep 1006:talk 975:lute 972:Reso 929:talk 852:Wily 841:talk 817:Wily 797:talk 778:Wily 745:Wily 729:#8. 704:Wily 675:talk 657:Wily 647:talk 629:Wily 618:talk 596:Wily 582:talk 564:talk 546:Wily 536:talk 518:Wily 514:Keep 504:talk 424:talk 359:talk 335:talk 331:Keφr 302:talk 293:3470 271:talk 232:talk 211:talk 189:talk 169:talk 160:3470 101:Zero 90:to 32:< 1560:(T) 767:(T) 735:(T) 346:to 317:to 248:to 22:Log 1714:) 1687:) 1673:) 1659:) 1645:) 1628:) 1596:) 1546:. 1525:) 1490:) 1472:) 1440:) 1408:) 1382:• 1378:• 1369:→ 1354:• 1350:• 1341:→ 1326:• 1322:• 1313:→ 1298:• 1294:• 1285:→ 1272:) 1182:) 1165:) 1120:) 1105:) 1087:) 1065:) 1042:) 1028:) 1008:) 946:PK 931:) 923:. 883:) 873:. 843:) 799:) 721:. 677:) 649:) 620:) 584:) 566:) 538:) 506:) 480:• 476:• 467:→ 452:• 448:• 439:→ 426:) 361:) 337:) 285:, 273:) 234:) 213:) 191:) 129:• 125:• 116:→ 1710:( 1706:. 1683:( 1669:( 1655:( 1641:( 1624:( 1592:( 1574:D 1521:( 1505:D 1486:( 1468:( 1452:D 1436:( 1424:D 1404:( 1386:) 1374:( 1358:) 1346:( 1330:) 1318:( 1302:) 1290:( 1268:( 1205:✉ 1178:( 1161:( 1147:( 1116:( 1101:( 1083:( 1061:( 1038:( 1024:( 1004:( 951:T 927:( 910:) 906:( 877:( 856:D 839:( 821:D 795:( 782:D 749:D 708:D 673:( 661:D 645:( 633:D 616:( 600:D 580:( 562:( 550:D 534:( 522:D 502:( 484:) 472:( 456:) 444:( 422:( 357:( 333:( 305:) 299:( 269:( 230:( 209:( 187:( 172:) 166:( 121:( 98:_

Index

Knowledge:Redirects for discussion
Log
August 23
August 25
talk page
deletion review
Supreme leader
Ruslik
Zero
17:03, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Supreme Leader
Supreme Leader (disambiguation)
links to redirect
history
stats
Supreme Leader of Iran
Supreme Leader (disambiguation)
Supreme leader
France3470
(talk)
11:08, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
76.65.128.252
talk
11:56, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Kim Jong-un
Ego White Tray
talk
12:32, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Ego White Tray
talk

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